my take on flaggers

hartebreak
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Portland, OR, USA
Edited Date/Time 3/23/2016 1:33pm
In light of this most recent flag-gate (see all the threads) I cannot wrap my head around the flagging situation. From what I can tell, most (some) of these flaggers are simply fans of the sport and volunteer their time to flag for a race. How the riders, and teams don't demand a professional flagging crew that travels to the races is beyond me. Not even talking into account about the safety aspect (which is huge in itself) there is wayyyyyy too much money and stakes on the line for some dude who just wants a free ticket to the race to effect the results. This weekends example with Ryan's thing had implications that are probably in excess of $200,000-$300,000. Could you imagine if this happens and someone loses a championship due to something like this? The ramifications could be in the $millions. It just doesn't make sense for this situation to continue in what should be a professional sport.
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h&m_cycle
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3/22/2016 6:44pm Edited Date/Time 3/22/2016 6:44pm
You never know how any of it will go... How about FuelGate? Probable cost James a half mil championship bonus...
kiwifan
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3/22/2016 6:50pm
People are only human, being a flagman isn't a glamorous job, they made a mistake by the looks but give them a break.
Crush
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3/22/2016 7:02pm
The teams need to form a union more so than the riders IMO. Their employees are constantly getting fucked in the ass by inconsistencies... It's actually mind boggling they haven't got together to say get your shit together or we're out.
3/22/2016 7:07pm
They'd probably say get out. And expand the monster truck series.

The Shop

yak651
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3/22/2016 7:18pm
They hardly pay the entertainment, you think they are going to start hiring "professional" flaggers?
VintageRacer
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Morrice, MI, USA
3/22/2016 8:09pm
The volunteers only use the yellow. The AMA officials are the ones using the red and blue flags. It wasn't a volunteer with a free ticket waving the red flag.
cmotodad
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3/22/2016 8:10pm
I have flagged a few SX's. When you flag, you are given strict rules on what to do. The only guys to get red, blue or important flags are AMA or Feld employees. They don't even want the yellow flaggers on camera so when a rider goes down, you cant really even do a good job. They are going to the flashing lights to try and accomplish it. The medical flag is being put out because the riders have a hard time seeing the lights in the rhythm sections.
TXDirt
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3/22/2016 9:24pm
Ryan's penalty did not cost him or his team 200-300k. Come on man.... that's not even in the realm of possibility. Maybe 20-30k at most. And that might be on the high end.

For the most part the flaggers do a pretty good job. Have you ever flagged? Probably not. There is a lot going on, it's extremely loud and you are watching for issues basically out of four eyes/angles even though you only have two.

The guys running the red cross flags are AMA/FELD..... not your local fan of the sport flagger. To be honest, there has been more questionable calls with red flags, restarts, etc then with your basic yellow flag. The flaggers are fine... the problem is that AMA/FELD flaggers are so inconsistent it's a joke. How many times are we going to restart a race because a guy jumped the gate and no gate malfunctions?? Numerous times this season they have thrown the red cross flags maybe a bit early, or held them to long after a rider is outside the track completely.... but in other situations didn't thrown them when they could/should have.

It's the inconsistencies that are frustrating and that doesn't change by having "professional flaggers".

sumdood
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3/22/2016 9:48pm
"Flagging is hard"


hartebreak
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3/22/2016 9:49pm
TXDirt wrote:
Ryan's penalty did not cost him or his team 200-300k. Come on man.... that's not even in the realm of possibility. Maybe 20-30k at most. And...
Ryan's penalty did not cost him or his team 200-300k. Come on man.... that's not even in the realm of possibility. Maybe 20-30k at most. And that might be on the high end.

For the most part the flaggers do a pretty good job. Have you ever flagged? Probably not. There is a lot going on, it's extremely loud and you are watching for issues basically out of four eyes/angles even though you only have two.

The guys running the red cross flags are AMA/FELD..... not your local fan of the sport flagger. To be honest, there has been more questionable calls with red flags, restarts, etc then with your basic yellow flag. The flaggers are fine... the problem is that AMA/FELD flaggers are so inconsistent it's a joke. How many times are we going to restart a race because a guy jumped the gate and no gate malfunctions?? Numerous times this season they have thrown the red cross flags maybe a bit early, or held them to long after a rider is outside the track completely.... but in other situations didn't thrown them when they could/should have.

It's the inconsistencies that are frustrating and that doesn't change by having "professional flaggers".

I am not criticizing the flaggers at all. They do the best they can, but lets face it, they have nothing hanging over them at all to make sure they are doing their best. If the flaggers were employed by Feld, AMA, Monster, whomever, they would be evaluated and their job security would depend on performance. How can there be any quality control what-so-ever if every week its a whole new crop of people? Could you imagine if the NFL or MLB used volunteers as refs and umpires? This flagging issue (as well as other issues) are what is keeping this sport from becoming a legit sport and not just a show. I have been a flagger at local races before and I know its not easy, which makes my argument for professional flag crews even more valid.
dboivin
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3/22/2016 9:53pm
The volunteers only use the yellow. The AMA officials are the ones using the red and blue flags. It wasn't a volunteer with a free ticket...
The volunteers only use the yellow. The AMA officials are the ones using the red and blue flags. It wasn't a volunteer with a free ticket waving the red flag.
^^^ listen to this post. he knows as he was likely one of the volunteers (or connected to them). detroit volunteers are made up of michigan vintage mx racers who have been doing it for years.

makes no sense with this topic since it was the "paid" official that waves the important flags. typical monday quarterback post with no valid facts or experience on the subject.
hartebreak
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Portland, OR, USA
3/22/2016 10:05pm
The volunteers only use the yellow. The AMA officials are the ones using the red and blue flags. It wasn't a volunteer with a free ticket...
The volunteers only use the yellow. The AMA officials are the ones using the red and blue flags. It wasn't a volunteer with a free ticket waving the red flag.
dboivin wrote:
^^^ listen to this post. he knows as he was likely one of the volunteers (or connected to them). detroit volunteers are made up of michigan...
^^^ listen to this post. he knows as he was likely one of the volunteers (or connected to them). detroit volunteers are made up of michigan vintage mx racers who have been doing it for years.

makes no sense with this topic since it was the "paid" official that waves the important flags. typical monday quarterback post with no valid facts or experience on the subject.
fair enough
Mit12
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3/22/2016 10:19pm
TXDirt wrote:
Ryan's penalty did not cost him or his team 200-300k. Come on man.... that's not even in the realm of possibility. Maybe 20-30k at most. And...
Ryan's penalty did not cost him or his team 200-300k. Come on man.... that's not even in the realm of possibility. Maybe 20-30k at most. And that might be on the high end.

For the most part the flaggers do a pretty good job. Have you ever flagged? Probably not. There is a lot going on, it's extremely loud and you are watching for issues basically out of four eyes/angles even though you only have two.

The guys running the red cross flags are AMA/FELD..... not your local fan of the sport flagger. To be honest, there has been more questionable calls with red flags, restarts, etc then with your basic yellow flag. The flaggers are fine... the problem is that AMA/FELD flaggers are so inconsistent it's a joke. How many times are we going to restart a race because a guy jumped the gate and no gate malfunctions?? Numerous times this season they have thrown the red cross flags maybe a bit early, or held them to long after a rider is outside the track completely.... but in other situations didn't thrown them when they could/should have.

It's the inconsistencies that are frustrating and that doesn't change by having "professional flaggers".

Dungeys win bonus from KTM alone is $85,000 and a third is way lower. Going from a win to third could have easily cost Dungey over $100,000 between the SX purse his KTM and outside sponsors bonus structure.
Chains
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Fort Dodge, IA, USA
3/22/2016 11:15pm
You know as much as I love this sport, I still can't get over the fact how fucking retarded we can be, We have a sport that is no dough't one of the most demanding and dangerous in any kind of racing and we have peeps waving flags on a blind sided triple that have never been to a race. I'm not talking about just pro racing, its going on in every state at the local level.

i don't have the answer, but we need to start thinking outside the box.
Jharper
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Tampa Bay, FL, USA
3/23/2016 5:00am Edited Date/Time 3/23/2016 5:06am
I managed flaggers at local races for years. It's sometimes hard to find people who "get it". Feld employees or AMA employees; that doesn't necessarily mean they understand our sport or where you should be in certain situations. I think a professional flag crew would be perfect, but if that's not in the cards....

Why not create a professional light system and have one person work the controllers? I work for a top lighting manufacturer nowadays ( relax I'm not trying to sell anything because we don't make what's needed). It's very easy to create panel lights with color changing LEDs in them and run the wires all back to a central point. Then, put everything on a relay with the parts of the track marked so they don't mistakenly throw the wrong color in the wrong section. LEDs last generally up to 50,000 hours so Feld's only investment is up front cost and an installation at each race. It's simple. Red is Red Cross, yellow is just as it always has been, blue is as well, and green is track is clear.

You need four per straight away, entering and exiting on both sides. This eliminates all of the guess work and all of the flaggers. You just need one guy going to all of the races and maybe a second guy in case there's a problem with a wire getting cut. If you run everything in parallel, even if one side of a section goes out all the others will still function properly.

-Jesse
hartebreak
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3/23/2016 9:25am
I have a perfect solution. Just have it set up where all the bikes have a device on them where all the bikes ignitions cut out when a yellow flag comes out.


















Kidding of course
3/23/2016 11:37am
TXDirt wrote:
Ryan's penalty did not cost him or his team 200-300k. Come on man.... that's not even in the realm of possibility. Maybe 20-30k at most. And...
Ryan's penalty did not cost him or his team 200-300k. Come on man.... that's not even in the realm of possibility. Maybe 20-30k at most. And that might be on the high end.

For the most part the flaggers do a pretty good job. Have you ever flagged? Probably not. There is a lot going on, it's extremely loud and you are watching for issues basically out of four eyes/angles even though you only have two.

The guys running the red cross flags are AMA/FELD..... not your local fan of the sport flagger. To be honest, there has been more questionable calls with red flags, restarts, etc then with your basic yellow flag. The flaggers are fine... the problem is that AMA/FELD flaggers are so inconsistent it's a joke. How many times are we going to restart a race because a guy jumped the gate and no gate malfunctions?? Numerous times this season they have thrown the red cross flags maybe a bit early, or held them to long after a rider is outside the track completely.... but in other situations didn't thrown them when they could/should have.

It's the inconsistencies that are frustrating and that doesn't change by having "professional flaggers".

Mit12 wrote:
Dungeys win bonus from KTM alone is $85,000 and a third is way lower. Going from a win to third could have easily cost Dungey over...
Dungeys win bonus from KTM alone is $85,000 and a third is way lower. Going from a win to third could have easily cost Dungey over $100,000 between the SX purse his KTM and outside sponsors bonus structure.
Then he should have obeyed the red cross flag. It was Dungey ignoring the flag that cost him. Whether you agree or not that the flag should have been out, it was, and the onus is upon the riders to behave accordingly.
willieboi
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Ontario, CA, USA
3/23/2016 11:39am
The fan will end up paying for a pro flag crew with increased ticket prices so I say NO. Dungey is an experienced racer and to place blame on anyone else is BS. He made the mistake.
3/23/2016 11:59am
The flagger caused him to lose? Why stop there? The guy that fell off cost him as well. Of course he could have just not jumped on a flag
MX45
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3/23/2016 12:02pm
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
It's wrong. But thanks for sharing.
downard254
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3/23/2016 1:33pm
Only people in my mind who should be allowed to flag are racers of mid to upper B class and above ability. That way, when a rider is down, they have the ability to see the incident and direct the racers as to which side of the track is safe to navigate. Anytime I was a yellow, I was hoping for a hand jester to indicate which side of the track to pass the accident on. Didn't always get that answer, but did appreciate when I did.

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