Preferred ACL reconstruction in our community?

Ing
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3654
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Spring Hill, FL, USA
2/13/2016 11:14am
Patella graft done in 1985. Still going strong with zero problems.
2/13/2016 4:19pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2016 4:21pm
VoR wrote:
You may want to look up Dr. Mark on Thumpertalk

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=48
neysbo wrote:
Yes, Dr Mark Sanders is great, he did my sons right knee in Sept 2009 and by Jan 11 , he was pretty much 100%. He...
Yes, Dr Mark Sanders is great, he did my sons right knee in Sept 2009 and by Jan 11 , he was pretty much 100%. He used the opposite leg quadricep tendon to repair the acl. Rehab was tough but knee has been great.
Dr Mark Sanders in Houston did both of my ACL's and used the Patella Tendon and believe it or not I walked out of the Hospital the same day without crutches! Don't believe me check out his website www.sandersclinic.net . Also check out his videos on youtube. I flew from Florida to have both mine done the same day! Worth it for the best!!
I had mine done at 49 and have zero regrets. He has also done both of my shoulders with perfection
Bultaco
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Location
Planet, VT, USA
2/13/2016 4:32pm
R ACL in 1991. Dr McGuire in Anchorage. Auto Patella graft. Result was great. Stronger and a better knee than my OEM left one. The wound from harvesting took the longest to heal.
KMC440
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USA
2/13/2016 4:37pm
Broke my left tib had a rod placed in it so when I toasted that knees acl the patella tendon was a no-no. Soooo dead guy parts ... I did politely request a he-man strong dude or a 260lb flannel wearin bull dyke as the donor. So far so good 15yrs later...
Never had the rod taken out either but that's a different topic all together.
Best of luck to your friend.

The Shop

2/13/2016 4:44pm
Dr Mark Sanders in Houston Tx is one of the best Ortho's in our sport. He did both of my ACL's at the same time (patella grafts) and I walked out of the hospital on my own power no crutches. Was back on the bike less then 4 months later with no issues! Google the Sanders clinic and watch the video's, they are real!

The patella tendon is the way to go for the best result. Cadavers are not for athletes. It takes a full year for your body to completely accept the graft. Until then it can fail very easily like an old rubber band!

Dr. marks technique is when he harvests the graft he leaves bone on booths ends of it. Then when he makes a new ACL out of it it's bone on bone healing and not a ligament trying to attach to a bone. Basically after the bones heal in 3 weeks you are rock solid and good to go. You just have to wait 3 months for the knee cap to heal fully where the graft was taken or it could break in a crash.

I've owned a public track for over 12 years and have seen many many ACL surgery results and most don't end good. If you want to talk to Dr Mark he is very accessible, PM me and I'll give you his cell number. He answers or calls back. The guy loves what he does and loves being the best at it..

2/13/2016 6:11pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2016 6:26pm
1. Too many Docs today recommend cadaver grafts not because they are better, but because they are easier, and make the doc more money. On surgery day, they can do more cases if they do not have to spend an hour harvesting. They also have lesser rates of immediate complication (likely to the fact that there is less to the procedure...no harvesting, etc). They can also mark up the graft and make money there. They will never admit any of this, but will offer all sorts of sales pitches on why this is the way to go. If you do your own research and read the papers...you will begin to see the merits and shortfalls of various procedures.

2. For some patients, Cadaver grafts are definitely THE way to go. My personal opinion is that few active / MX / Offroad athletes are in this group...but that is just my opinion.

3. Anyone posting their own personal experience, and using that as evidence of what you should do are not competent to offer advice. One person's experience is NOT statistically significant. Look at statistically significant studies.

4. Go to a surgeon who does a LOT of ACL procedures. This is the single most important thing you can do! True experts have done over 5,000 cases. I think I heard that Don Shelbourne (Indianapolis..former Colts team doc and ACL surgery pioneer) has now done over 10,000 cases. When Travis Pastrana bangs himself up...he goes to Don Shelbourne...you can verify this. Mark Sanders (6000+ cases) in Houston did his fellowship with Don, and uses the same techniques as Don. As an aside, Don and Mark do contra-lateral Patella grafts almost exclusively...read Shelbourne's papers.

Again..ASK YOU DOC HOW MANY HE DOES A YEAR...and HOW MANY HE HAS DONE IN TOTAL. If he says "300!" like that is a lot..RUN. There is NO substitute for experience.

5. Do your research, decide on the procedure you want...THEN find the best Doc at that procedure. Do not go to a doc that does hamstring grafts 95% of the time, and have him to a PTG.

6. Saying you do not need to have your ACL fixed because "athlete X" did not have his fixed, is foolhardy. Everyone's anatomy is different. MX puts loads on the knee that are unpredictable and can be orders of magnitude larger than for running sports. If you have a non-functional ACL, loads will shift elsewhere...and you have a significant chance of damaging other knee parts that can not be corrected as easily. ACL surgery = 95% success rate... Meniscus repair is a crap shoot. Go ahead..tell yourself that you can overcome not having an ACL by working out your knee more...but dont go crying when you tear your meniscus, etc...and 10 years from now your knee is junk and you need a replacement.

7. Cadaver grafts do not reach full strength for a very long time. The dead tissue takes years to transition to living through ligementization. Docs who regularly treat MX athletes report a statistically significantly higher rate of failure in cadaver grafts vs Patella. Any one case does not tell you anything.

8. Hamstring grafts can create weakness and hamstring pain, but the actual repair tissue is the strongest. The anchoring of the tissues is not as strong at a patella graft (bone plug to bone plug), however. Even though cavaver tissue tests show the hamstring repair is stronger, the Patella Tendon graft has lower rates of failure amongst athletes.

9. Rehab on the Patella is toughest, and not suitable for many patients (but should not be an issue for any sort of MX / Offroad athlete).

10. Your mileage may vary.
2/13/2016 6:22pm Edited Date/Time 2/13/2016 6:23pm
Dr Mark Sanders in Houston Tx is one of the best Ortho's in our sport. He did both of my ACL's at the same time (patella...
Dr Mark Sanders in Houston Tx is one of the best Ortho's in our sport. He did both of my ACL's at the same time (patella grafts) and I walked out of the hospital on my own power no crutches. Was back on the bike less then 4 months later with no issues! Google the Sanders clinic and watch the video's, they are real!

The patella tendon is the way to go for the best result. Cadavers are not for athletes. It takes a full year for your body to completely accept the graft. Until then it can fail very easily like an old rubber band!

Dr. marks technique is when he harvests the graft he leaves bone on booths ends of it. Then when he makes a new ACL out of it it's bone on bone healing and not a ligament trying to attach to a bone. Basically after the bones heal in 3 weeks you are rock solid and good to go. You just have to wait 3 months for the knee cap to heal fully where the graft was taken or it could break in a crash.

I've owned a public track for over 12 years and have seen many many ACL surgery results and most don't end good. If you want to talk to Dr Mark he is very accessible, PM me and I'll give you his cell number. He answers or calls back. The guy loves what he does and loves being the best at it..

There are a few things Shelbourne and Sanders do different from many docs:
1. They insist on Pre-hab. They will not generally do the surgery right after injury, but want you to a lot of pre-hab prior to cutting.
2. They drill with the knee at a more acute angle
3. They harvest the donor material from the opposite knee when possible. Read Don Shelbournes papers to understand how he came to the conclusion that this worked better.
4. They have very aggressive re-hab routines.

Other than that...they perform a pretty standard patella tendon graft...and they do it with a very high level of expertise.
Honda88L
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USA
2/14/2016 10:38am Edited Date/Time 2/14/2016 10:39am
At the age of 44 it finally happened to me in 2010. I competed skiing moguls on and off for most of my life and the topic of knee surgery is a common discussion in that sport. My doctor, Tesner, is well known in OH and he actually told me to tell him what type of graft I wanted - basically he said you do the research and tell me what you think is best FOR YOU. Here is what I came up with:

1.Cadaver - good if you are young and plan on being very active for many more years. Also that you have more time to heal and that god forbid it doesn't take and you have to do it again.

2.Patella - was for many years the way to go and still is a good choice but the chances of pain in the crouched position, standing on the kneecap, etc is much more likely.

3.Hamstring - has come a long way in recent years as they have made the process stronger by "twisting" them together and they have gotten better about the processes for securing/attaching it. Apparently we have way more hamstring than most of us need.

One of my wife's best friends husband also happens to be an orthopedic surgeon specializing in knees so I asked him. He said he had not done anything but hamstring in about 3 years, in 10, and that he considered it the new "gold standard" because of the advances they had made. I went this route and have had no problems at all and I still ski hard to include bumps and no problems ever doing MX. I do avoid air on skis a bit more though just because.... I also have many friends that had a patella and they tend to complain about pain more than I do.

I have always wondered when some say they are walking in a day or a week after surgery. My Dr was the exact opposite - take your time, rehab, don't push it, etc. I think it was like 4 weeks for me. To me that makes sense because it just seems logical that the tendon needs to adhere to the bone for a while. My advice is do exactly what your are told as far as rehab.

So from my experience it depends on your age and what your intentions are going forward. Good luck no matter what.
EMA884mx
Posts
172
Joined
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Location
Midland, TX, USA
2/14/2016 11:15am
Thank you all so much for the information and for the various responses. StartedTooLate, I have done lots of research regarding various graft types and have read many good things about Dr. Mark Sanders. Why does he believe using the patellar tendon from the opposite leg is advantageous? I can see the positives of doing so on the standpoint of getting back to sports as quickly as possible, but the ideas of having a perfectly good leg altered surgically bothers me.
2/14/2016 11:28am
I had mine ACL done in October 2014. Me and my doctor decided to do patellar tendon graft. First 4 days in hospital were very painful, but I was off the crutches in 10 days. There were days, when I exercised my knee for 3-4 hours per day. I was in full strength in 2,5 months and back on bike in 4 months.
2/14/2016 11:35am
I've had 4 surgeries.

One patella graft
two Hamstring (taken from myself)
one Hamstring (human donor)


Patella was painful and badly performed. First lesson find the best knee surgeon you can not the local guy.

Two hamstring grafts left me with tight hamstrings that also cause pain n the knees and weak hamstring muscles.. Much stretching required after exercise.

Last Op (Human donor) was fast recovery/no pain and ofcourse no adverse affect to any other parts of my body.
2/14/2016 4:43pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2016 5:28pm
EMA884mx wrote:
Thank you all so much for the information and for the various responses. StartedTooLate, I have done lots of research regarding various graft types and have...
Thank you all so much for the information and for the various responses. StartedTooLate, I have done lots of research regarding various graft types and have read many good things about Dr. Mark Sanders. Why does he believe using the patellar tendon from the opposite leg is advantageous? I can see the positives of doing so on the standpoint of getting back to sports as quickly as possible, but the ideas of having a perfectly good leg altered surgically bothers me.
The technique originated with Don Shelbourne in Indianapolis. You could go read his papers. But here is the short of it.

Being one of the top knee guys in the nation, Dr Shelbourne was called upon to do a lot of revision surgeries...re-repairing an ACL that failed after a previous surgery. That meant he was forced to take the donor graft from the opposite leg because it had already been harvested from the same side. Over the long run, he found that revision cases healed faster and better than ACL repairs where it was the first injury. This make no sense. He eventually (over more than a decade of research) narrowed it down to the opposite side donor site as being the positive correlation. Then he started doing that on primary surgeries. Sanders did his fellowship with Shellbourne.

Surgery is trauma. When the donor tissue comes from the same leg as the repair with a patella tendon graft, you have two areas of trauma...the donor site, and the holes in your knee and the ACL repair. The rehab for each of those trauma sites is different. For the ACL, it is mainly range of motion. For the patella harvesting site...it is re-building strength to compensate for the loss of tissue. Having the trauma on the same leg makes it harder to re-hab each area. This leads to less aggressive work by the patient, and poorer recovery. I can not imagine having had both the harvest site and the repair on the same leg. Re-hab would have been so much harder.

Go read the papers....you can find ones of interest here...

http://www.fixknee.com/research-and-publications/research-studies
zehn
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7886
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Location
Anchorage, AK, USA
2/14/2016 4:57pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2016 4:57pm
Bultaco wrote:
R ACL in 1991. Dr McGuire in Anchorage. Auto Patella graft. Result was great. Stronger and a better knee than my OEM left one. The wound...
R ACL in 1991. Dr McGuire in Anchorage. Auto Patella graft. Result was great. Stronger and a better knee than my OEM left one. The wound from harvesting took the longest to heal.
Ha, small world. McGuire did my dad's ACL in Anchorage too, but that was in the 80s when the tech wasn't quite as good, so he's had trouble with his ever since.

I had mind done in 2011 after a rupture (as in the whole thing exploded) with a cadaver because I don't huck fat triples to flat on the reg. It's pretty good now, also feels stronger and more solid than my other knee.
2/14/2016 5:01pm Edited Date/Time 2/14/2016 5:18pm
Honda88L wrote:
At the age of 44 it finally happened to me in 2010. I competed skiing moguls on and off for most of my life and the...
At the age of 44 it finally happened to me in 2010. I competed skiing moguls on and off for most of my life and the topic of knee surgery is a common discussion in that sport. My doctor, Tesner, is well known in OH and he actually told me to tell him what type of graft I wanted - basically he said you do the research and tell me what you think is best FOR YOU. Here is what I came up with:

1.Cadaver - good if you are young and plan on being very active for many more years. Also that you have more time to heal and that god forbid it doesn't take and you have to do it again.

2.Patella - was for many years the way to go and still is a good choice but the chances of pain in the crouched position, standing on the kneecap, etc is much more likely.

3.Hamstring - has come a long way in recent years as they have made the process stronger by "twisting" them together and they have gotten better about the processes for securing/attaching it. Apparently we have way more hamstring than most of us need.

One of my wife's best friends husband also happens to be an orthopedic surgeon specializing in knees so I asked him. He said he had not done anything but hamstring in about 3 years, in 10, and that he considered it the new "gold standard" because of the advances they had made. I went this route and have had no problems at all and I still ski hard to include bumps and no problems ever doing MX. I do avoid air on skis a bit more though just because.... I also have many friends that had a patella and they tend to complain about pain more than I do.

I have always wondered when some say they are walking in a day or a week after surgery. My Dr was the exact opposite - take your time, rehab, don't push it, etc. I think it was like 4 weeks for me. To me that makes sense because it just seems logical that the tendon needs to adhere to the bone for a while. My advice is do exactly what your are told as far as rehab.

So from my experience it depends on your age and what your intentions are going forward. Good luck no matter what.
Actually there is a blatant mis-statements here, which must be corrected. Cadaver grafts are NOT the choice if you are young and active. That is completely wrong, and not backed by stats. Allografts are much more likely to suffer catastrophic re-tears in active people. Anyone riding MX at any age should be considered young due to the magnitude of loads that can be seen when you hit the dirt from a dirt bike at speed.

Read the papers for you self...

GRAFT SELECTION IN ANTERIOR CRUCIATE LIGAMENT RECONSTRUCTION
Nathan A. Mall, MD, Geoffrey S. Van Thiel, MD, MBA, Asheesh Bedi, MD, Brian J. Cole, MD, MBA

Rush University Medical Center, Department of Orthopaedics, Division of Sports Medicine
University of Michigan, Department of Orthopaedics, MedSport
Rockford Orthopedic Associates, Rockford, IL


"Bone patellar tendon bone autograft and hamstring autograft are two of the most popular graft sources for ACL reconstruction. Figure 1. These grafts have reported donor site morbidity; however, most surgeons would agree that the risk of catastrophic failure with allograft may outweigh the risks of donor site morbidity in the young, active patient."

In laymens terms...for young or active people, cadaver grafts are too weak, and too prone to catastrophic failure, so the risk of donor site complications is worth going with an autograft (Hamstring or "B-T-B").

"Use of autografts have been shown to decrease retear rates substantially in the younger population,"

Cadaver grafts re-tear more....3x as much actually.

If you are riding MX...stay away from Allografts plain and simple. If a doc tries to convince you...he does not understand what is involved in MX...at any age. He is trying to talk you into the procedure that he is most comfortable with instead of admitting he is not the doc for you. Go somewhere else.

The question is B-T-B Patella vs Hamstring. What it came down to fore me was simple.. Hamstring grafts re-fail 2x as often as P-T-B Patella grafts. End of story. Either Patellar or Hamstgring are far better than an Allograft.

DO NOT TAKE ANY DOCS WORD WITHOUT CHECKING THE FACTS. GO READ THE PAPERS YOURSELF, especially the on I cite here. Then grill the docs you talk to.

Final summary from the above referenced paper:

The surgeon has many choices when it comes to graft selection for ACL reconstruction. There are
certain situations in which one graft may be favored over another, such as in the young, athletic
population where autograft tissue should be used. However, there is good literature that excellent
results can be achieved with each type of graft, and thus the surgeon must inform his or her patients
of the advantages and disadvantages of each graft and help them make an informed decision. In
summary, BTB autograft is generally accepted as the “gold standard” due to its biomechanical
profile and reliable, fast bone-to-bone healing; however, hamstring tendons offer certain theoretical
advantages in those that do a lot of kneeling, pre-existing patellofemoral pain, patella alta, or in those
with open physes. Quadriceps tendon grafts have several advantages, including a large crosssectional
area and associated bone plug, but more long term, prospective studies must be done to
determine its incorporation properties and ensure its long-term survival compared to patellar tendon
and hamstring autografts. Allograft tissue is an excellent choice in many revision situations, in the
older recreational athlete, and in those with low demands but need to return to work faster with less
pain and dysfunction immediately post-operatively.
EMA884mx
Posts
172
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Location
Midland, TX, USA
2/15/2016 7:47am
Dr Mark Sanders in Houston Tx is one of the best Ortho's in our sport. He did both of my ACL's at the same time (patella...
Dr Mark Sanders in Houston Tx is one of the best Ortho's in our sport. He did both of my ACL's at the same time (patella grafts) and I walked out of the hospital on my own power no crutches. Was back on the bike less then 4 months later with no issues! Google the Sanders clinic and watch the video's, they are real!

The patella tendon is the way to go for the best result. Cadavers are not for athletes. It takes a full year for your body to completely accept the graft. Until then it can fail very easily like an old rubber band!

Dr. marks technique is when he harvests the graft he leaves bone on booths ends of it. Then when he makes a new ACL out of it it's bone on bone healing and not a ligament trying to attach to a bone. Basically after the bones heal in 3 weeks you are rock solid and good to go. You just have to wait 3 months for the knee cap to heal fully where the graft was taken or it could break in a crash.

I've owned a public track for over 12 years and have seen many many ACL surgery results and most don't end good. If you want to talk to Dr Mark he is very accessible, PM me and I'll give you his cell number. He answers or calls back. The guy loves what he does and loves being the best at it..

PM sent, thanks!
EMA884mx
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172
Joined
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Location
Midland, TX, USA
2/15/2016 9:34am
EMA884mx wrote:
Thank you all so much for the information and for the various responses. StartedTooLate, I have done lots of research regarding various graft types and have...
Thank you all so much for the information and for the various responses. StartedTooLate, I have done lots of research regarding various graft types and have read many good things about Dr. Mark Sanders. Why does he believe using the patellar tendon from the opposite leg is advantageous? I can see the positives of doing so on the standpoint of getting back to sports as quickly as possible, but the ideas of having a perfectly good leg altered surgically bothers me.
The technique originated with Don Shelbourne in Indianapolis. You could go read his papers. But here is the short of it. Being one of the top...
The technique originated with Don Shelbourne in Indianapolis. You could go read his papers. But here is the short of it.

Being one of the top knee guys in the nation, Dr Shelbourne was called upon to do a lot of revision surgeries...re-repairing an ACL that failed after a previous surgery. That meant he was forced to take the donor graft from the opposite leg because it had already been harvested from the same side. Over the long run, he found that revision cases healed faster and better than ACL repairs where it was the first injury. This make no sense. He eventually (over more than a decade of research) narrowed it down to the opposite side donor site as being the positive correlation. Then he started doing that on primary surgeries. Sanders did his fellowship with Shellbourne.

Surgery is trauma. When the donor tissue comes from the same leg as the repair with a patella tendon graft, you have two areas of trauma...the donor site, and the holes in your knee and the ACL repair. The rehab for each of those trauma sites is different. For the ACL, it is mainly range of motion. For the patella harvesting site...it is re-building strength to compensate for the loss of tissue. Having the trauma on the same leg makes it harder to re-hab each area. This leads to less aggressive work by the patient, and poorer recovery. I can not imagine having had both the harvest site and the repair on the same leg. Re-hab would have been so much harder.

Go read the papers....you can find ones of interest here...

http://www.fixknee.com/research-and-publications/research-studies
Is there any research that shows risk of future arthritis in the knee (contralateral knee) that the patellar tendon graft is harvested from? Will the opposite knee become weaker or show symptoms on patellar instability over time? Thanks again.
Jaybird67k
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566
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Location
Vidor, TX, USA
2/15/2016 11:18am
I had mine done in 2012 at the age of 44. I had total torn separation with meniscus damage.
I had the cadaver and the meniscus shave 30% on inner and outer sides by the Fondren Clinic in Houston, Tx.

I have to do pre PT because my knee was mechanically locked and wouldn't straighten out and it took months before the surgery could be done because of major swelling. I had blood pooling up in my foot coming from my knee and I was having my knee drained every 2 weeks. Post PT is the key to a good recovery, unfortunately since I had to wait to have surgery and couldn't straighten my leg the Quad muscle died off very quick so when it was time for Post PT I had hardly any quad left.

Mines probably 80% and could use some arthritis removal from under the knee cap which is common for older people a few years after ACL construction.

I race fine with mine at 48 now but I sure wouldn't want to stab it straight into the ground on accident.

Jason
Ardenb64
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Location
Metairie, LA, USA
2/15/2016 1:31pm
EMA884mx wrote:
Thank you all so much for the information and for the various responses. StartedTooLate, I have done lots of research regarding various graft types and have...
Thank you all so much for the information and for the various responses. StartedTooLate, I have done lots of research regarding various graft types and have read many good things about Dr. Mark Sanders. Why does he believe using the patellar tendon from the opposite leg is advantageous? I can see the positives of doing so on the standpoint of getting back to sports as quickly as possible, but the ideas of having a perfectly good leg altered surgically bothers me.
The technique originated with Don Shelbourne in Indianapolis. You could go read his papers. But here is the short of it. Being one of the top...
The technique originated with Don Shelbourne in Indianapolis. You could go read his papers. But here is the short of it.

Being one of the top knee guys in the nation, Dr Shelbourne was called upon to do a lot of revision surgeries...re-repairing an ACL that failed after a previous surgery. That meant he was forced to take the donor graft from the opposite leg because it had already been harvested from the same side. Over the long run, he found that revision cases healed faster and better than ACL repairs where it was the first injury. This make no sense. He eventually (over more than a decade of research) narrowed it down to the opposite side donor site as being the positive correlation. Then he started doing that on primary surgeries. Sanders did his fellowship with Shellbourne.

Surgery is trauma. When the donor tissue comes from the same leg as the repair with a patella tendon graft, you have two areas of trauma...the donor site, and the holes in your knee and the ACL repair. The rehab for each of those trauma sites is different. For the ACL, it is mainly range of motion. For the patella harvesting site...it is re-building strength to compensate for the loss of tissue. Having the trauma on the same leg makes it harder to re-hab each area. This leads to less aggressive work by the patient, and poorer recovery. I can not imagine having had both the harvest site and the repair on the same leg. Re-hab would have been so much harder.

Go read the papers....you can find ones of interest here...

http://www.fixknee.com/research-and-publications/research-studies
EMA884mx wrote:
Is there any research that shows risk of future arthritis in the knee (contralateral knee) that the patellar tendon graft is harvested from? Will the opposite...
Is there any research that shows risk of future arthritis in the knee (contralateral knee) that the patellar tendon graft is harvested from? Will the opposite knee become weaker or show symptoms on patellar instability over time? Thanks again.
You have a lot of great questions!

I'm a physician assistant for Ochsner Sports Medicine Institute in New Orleans, and I also work trackside with asterisk. It's cool to see all the debate here, because as others mentioned, there's often debate in the medical community as to what graft is best for certain patients.

I agree with StartedTooLate that a BTB autograft is likely the way to go for our community. The surgeon I work with places the incision slightly lateral to attempt to prevent the tenderness that develops over that scar. I think a lot of runners, soccer players develop tendinitis status post BTB auto's, but that's strictly empiric talk.

If you need anything, feel free to email me. Arden.ballard@ochsner.org

As for the OP, people wait and get their acl's repaired later on all the time. Prehab, good surgeon and good, consistent physical therapy (and self-dedication) will bring you back better than new!
2/17/2016 9:54pm Edited Date/Time 2/17/2016 10:05pm
EMA884mx wrote:
Is there any research that shows risk of future arthritis in the knee (contralateral knee) that the patellar tendon graft is harvested from? Will the opposite...
Is there any research that shows risk of future arthritis in the knee (contralateral knee) that the patellar tendon graft is harvested from? Will the opposite knee become weaker or show symptoms on patellar instability over time? Thanks again.
I have not read of any increased or decreased incidence of arthritis associated with pulling the donor tissue from the opposite knee. Regular BTBP and Contralateral BTBP are the same procedure....you are just pulling the donor tissue from the opposite leg to split up the trauma and improve rehab.

If using the patella tendon for repair will lead to arthritis, it is going to do so on which ever knee you pull it from. Contralateral has no bearing...unless you want to choose which knee is subject to some unknown risk...

As for a general study on arthritis following ACL repair, here is a study...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532071/

I am sure if you google, you can find plenty more. But without even reading the papers, if you understand ACL anatomy, and how they are repaired, any type of repair is going to increase the risk of arthritis. But not as much as not getting it repaired. See this paper...

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/aorth/2015/928301/

"Deficiency of the ACL results in suboptimal kinematics as effective transfer of loads relies on mechanical stability. ACL insufficiency causes deterioration of the physiologic roll-glide mechanism culminating in increased anterior tibial translation as well as increased internal tibial rotation [31]. It results in increased mean contact stress in the medial and lateral compartment posterior sectors under anterior and rotational loads, respectively [36]. With muscular fatigue or poor neuromuscular control, patients experience combined anterior and rotatory instability as a subluxation of the tibiofemoral joint. Ultimately, failure of a primary restraint such as the ACL necessitates recruitment of secondary structures (e.g., menisci) in order to resist external forces and to stabilize joint motion. The higher loads borne by secondary structures may render them more susceptible to degeneration or secondary failure (Figure 1)."

If a structure is designed with 4 load bearing members, and you take one out, the loads are going to re-distribute to the other members. In your knee, that is the meniscus. ACL repair is pretty reliable. Meniscus repair is not. The moral is...don't tear your ACL. I highly recommend that route. If you do tear it, either stop being active, or get it fixed. If you are going to get it fixed, dont use a cadaver graft unless you want to take 12-18 months off.
Markee
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Suffolk, VA, USA
2/18/2016 5:22am Edited Date/Time 2/18/2016 5:22am
I had ACL surgery and meniscus repair. The meniscus was from not doing the surgery soon enough. I went about 10 years not knowing my ACL was torn completely.

I was that guy that my jaw dropped when I read the MRI report. Got it all fixed from DR. Cambell in VA, Beach. He refused to use cadaver parts, for some reason he recommended hamstring for moto. The fear of rejection was the reason behind not using cadaver parts.

My knee is 95% from what it was, very pleased I finally got it fixed. Now I will say in my case, my repaired leg when contracting the hamstring is noticeably weaker to this day, my surgery was 10 years ago.
2/18/2016 5:42am
EMA884mx wrote:
For those of you with past ACL tears I have some questions and am hoping for some good feedback. A little background first. In 2002 I...
For those of you with past ACL tears I have some questions and am hoping for some good feedback. A little background first. In 2002 I tore my ACL (full 100% tear), did physical therapy and was able to strengthen my knee enough to where I did not have ACL reconstruction surgery. Fast forward 13.5 years, my ACL deficient knee feels a bit unstable and I tend to get sort of a mild, dull ache from time to time, especially after riding. I can count exactly three times that it's actually given out in the past 13 years. I wear a custom CTi knee brace when riding but my knee just doesn't feel like it used to. I am now 31 years old and seriously considering the ACL reconstruction. I have to admit though that I'm scared of the time off from work, activities, playing with my son, etc.

Have any of you guys gone years after an ACL tear before having surgery?
For you older guys, what type of graft did you choose?
Does your knee feel better than it did before surgery?
Does anybody here regret doing an ACL reconstruction or feel that it has not benefitted them as much as they anticipated? In other words, was it worth the time off from work, riding, etc?

Thank you for your time on this!

At the risk of stating the obvious it should be said that even though the recovery and overall ACL surgery is better when done using the opposite knee patella graft, Dr Sanders would be happy to perform the surgery using the graft from the same knee.

I had both my ACL's replaced in the same surgery so an opposite knee graft was not an option. One of my ACL's had been gone for 20 years and the other was a new tear. Like some here have said every one is different. I rode and raced for 20 years with no ACL in the one knee and for years it was fine. Would buckle occasionally here and there for the first couple of years but after that my body must've compensated and it was perfect for 15 plus years.

The tear in the other knee I thought would be the same so I wasted 2 years off the bike rehabbing and strengthening it only to have it give out the first ride every time I would test it. Knowing what I know now I simply would've rehabbed the knee for a month or two and then got it repaired ASAP.

Since the Sanders technique is an opposite knee graft I figured I might as well get them both repaired anyway.

The thought of having a perfectly good knee messed with to fix a damaged knee freaks out a lot of people, myself included. But after having a patella graft done then you realize why they do it that way and its the best way. They know what they're doing!

I was back riding in under 4 months having them both done at the same time, if I only had one repaired doing the opposite patella graft I would been back much much sooner.
EMA884mx
Posts
172
Joined
3/9/2013
Location
Midland, TX, USA
2/18/2016 8:08am
Guys, I want to thank you again for all of the information and time spent answering all of my questions. I feel like I have learned so much the past couple weeks regarding ACL reconstruction due to people's feedback and from all of the medical articles and studies that have been posted.
After all of my research I made my mind up that having my ACL reconstructed in Houston with Dr. Mark is the way to go. The one thing I did not research, whether or not his office takes my insurance and unfortunately they don't. So now I'm back to looking for a top-notch orthopedic surgeon preferably in Texas. I have already visited with one surgeon but they are pushing for an allograft and so because of this and all of my research, not sure I can really trust this surgeon. Very few recommend an allograft for active adults under 45 and especially for your first reconstruction. So that being said, any suggestions on excellent surgeons? I emailed Dr. Mark with the same question but have not heard back. Just very disappointed that I'm not covered at his office otherwise I'd have already made arrangements to fly to Houston for a consult.
HackMan162
Posts
534
Joined
2/16/2007
Location
Austin, TX, USA
2/18/2016 8:19am
EMA884mx wrote:
Guys, I want to thank you again for all of the information and time spent answering all of my questions. I feel like I have learned...
Guys, I want to thank you again for all of the information and time spent answering all of my questions. I feel like I have learned so much the past couple weeks regarding ACL reconstruction due to people's feedback and from all of the medical articles and studies that have been posted.
After all of my research I made my mind up that having my ACL reconstructed in Houston with Dr. Mark is the way to go. The one thing I did not research, whether or not his office takes my insurance and unfortunately they don't. So now I'm back to looking for a top-notch orthopedic surgeon preferably in Texas. I have already visited with one surgeon but they are pushing for an allograft and so because of this and all of my research, not sure I can really trust this surgeon. Very few recommend an allograft for active adults under 45 and especially for your first reconstruction. So that being said, any suggestions on excellent surgeons? I emailed Dr. Mark with the same question but have not heard back. Just very disappointed that I'm not covered at his office otherwise I'd have already made arrangements to fly to Houston for a consult.
Do you have out of network coverage? Doc Mark isnt a preferred provider on my insurance either, but the difference between in-network and out of network, is only 10%, as well as a higher deductible. Call Mike in his office to discuss your situation.
kzizok
Posts
8425
Joined
10/19/2010
Location
USA
2/18/2016 10:53am
Didnt read every bit of info posted here. If Im repeating, forgive me. The synthetic graft is supposed to be superior in down time (supposed to be 1-2 weeks), last longer, and feel stronger.

Main down fall is is isn't US FDA approved. Europe it is approved.
chase4372
Posts
12
Joined
2/1/2016
Location
Wyoming, MN, USA
2/18/2016 2:35pm
I have had two acl surgeries, one when I was 14, the second when I was 21. I live in Minnesota, we have some of the best healthcare here, and in the early 2000s , there was no patella option , either a cadaver or hamstring graft, I chose a cadaver, and had very little nerve problems and the healing timeline was quicker, but all of the options are roughly the same.. Now it's important to understand the difference between hamstring and patella procedures, your patella is a wide thick ligament, and if a portion of a ligament is cut away it will grow back. The hamstring is a tendon, when they graft out of your hamstring, it does not grow back. So fast-forward to my second acl reconstruction, Adrian Peterson had his done a week or so prior to me having mine done, he had the patella procedure, so did I. Biggest difference I noticed, the pain/ nerve damage on the front of my knee, mainly when I'm applying pressure directly to it, for example kneeling. But the graft seems to have held strong, it will never be the same and I will always remember how quickly it can go wrong, just like d. Wilson... And as far as knee braces, I had the best knee brace insurance could buy, and tore my acl the second time while wearing it. It was about the same thing you see in the NFL, they're molded specific to each knee, constructed from carbon fiber and cost thousands. Anyway that's my experience, and FYI I did spend a couple of years with no acl, when I began playing football again is when I realized I couldn't be active to that extent without an acl, so I had it done again.

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