bring real factory bikes back...... please

Tarz483
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1/22/2016 5:16am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything...
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything like that) with suspension done, but anything they do to the suspension has to be available to the public. Close the gap between the privateers and the factory teams. Let the actual riding separate the guys, not the bikes/parts. All of the new production bikes are badass. Can you really keep making these bikes that much better?
×1000
My thoughts Exactly
Spartacus
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1/22/2016 5:22am
Amazing how each generation think they are at the apogee of development.

What could ever be more advanced then the steam engine they said.

Question
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1/22/2016 5:34am

Do not get me wrong, I love so much the pit bits pictures that I regularly save some on my pc, but the true factory bikes, breakthough innovations, like we could see in the 80s, are costing so much that I would prefer to see more riders and their mechanics making a living with the factory money. Bikes must remain affordable too !
jmx411
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1/22/2016 6:51am
Next week someone will start a thread complaining that the bikes are to fast and handle to good causing riders to jump to high and are to dangerous.

The Shop

newmann
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1/22/2016 7:43am
Spartacus wrote:
Amazing how each generation think they are at the apogee of development.

What could ever be more advanced then the steam engine they said.

Just bought the wife a new car....holy hell at all the technologically advanced gizmos and gadgetrons they can pack into a dashboard. Oh so nice, but it also makes me appreciate my 01 F250 all that much more. Just a couple of knobs to turn to control everything. There is something nice about simple things.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Simple-things-the-Hodaka,…





ML512
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Fantasy
1/22/2016 7:55am
Julian wrote:
that is more like examples of what i miss,,, but to me, it seems all a compromise. Those are examples of what the Japanese can come...
that is more like examples of what i miss,,,

but to me, it seems all a compromise.

Those are examples of what the Japanese can come up with by not having a factory bike ban in Japan and Europe.

The American MX world is however very important and the AMA factory bike ban puts a big damp blanket over everyone. If the Japanese are banned from the USA, they loose a lot of enthusiasm for creating new ideas for just Japan and Europe.
Due to modern day expenses versus how many bikes they're selling, you won't see rapid departures from production. The moldings, castings, and other creative processes are far too expensive to create such wild one-off bikes to race every year and even radically redesign production bikes every few years. It's part of the reason you have a company such as Suzuki holding onto certain designs for so long... They need to make their money back on the product, period.

Realistically, all the production rule is holding teams to is production-based frames (there's still gusseting and other mods being done) and production based engines. So manufactures can't go out and build one-off engines and frames... Engine wise, it's an absolute hassle and immense expense to create a limited run of different race engines that won't truly make it to production. Especially because some of the processes used to create one-off or limited run components is not how you would go about creating an actual production run. So it's not even as simple as going "cool, this works, order 10,000!".
Lasse
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1/22/2016 8:07am
Why is no one mentioning electric engines? It seems quite obvious to me.
1/22/2016 8:11am
I think the thing missing from racing isn't factory bikes, but the backyard engineers building something of their own, and racing it. The bikes have become so good, you don't see much of that anymore.
1/22/2016 8:18am
Julian wrote:
just noticed the classic steel post..... 2002 Honda, looks just about like a 2016 Honda, if you ask me. 15 years and nothing...... Back when I...
just noticed the classic steel post..... 2002 Honda, looks just about like a 2016 Honda, if you ask me.

15 years and nothing......

Back when I raced in the mid 70's, if you had a 1-year old bike, it looked like you were riding an antique.

The development was hiper back then and things were exciting, it was FUN to just look at photos of the TRUE factory bikes, I remember the MXA photos of the 1975 Fire Engine Red Factory Hondas, now those were factory bikes.

Today, zzzzzzzzzzzzz......... nothing......... year after year......... boring............ zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I say, get rid of the ban on true factory bikes......... let development proceed and bring back the good old days......

Sure the best riders will get to ride the prototype hand made wonders, so what...........
At some point you've solved the problems and you don't need to improve that area.
If your frame is cracking and breaking every other month and you keep welding new gussets
to keep it together you'll be changing the frame until you solve that problem.
At some point you call it good.
1/22/2016 8:24am
Julian wrote:
gosh, things seem to have changed in my good old USA. most of what I am reading on this thread indicates the current crop of mxers...
gosh, things seem to have changed in my good old USA. most of what I am reading on this thread indicates the current crop of mxers are starting to get a bit socialistic and wanting a "fair playing field" for mx competition today whereas back in the 70/80's everyone was excited about the progress and development of mx.

ho hum....... guess that's the way it is...... guess mx bikes have reached the end of development --- time to just stop and ride what we have..........

Don't tell Elon Musk about that concept.........


Julian
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1/22/2016 8:29am Edited Date/Time 1/22/2016 8:31am
I see a couple of guys are saying when it is good, don't change it.....

That may be all well and good for some things like the swing on the front porch maybe....

But I have a feeling it is not the way the manufacturers are looking at it, KTM for example has gone on a rampage the last 10 years while the Japanese have been saving money on design..... I don't know the sales figures but somehow I sense they may be moving towards the top.....

And as far as the race teams - something also tells me they are not going to reach a point where they say, ok, it works, so lets just leave it alone.

Anyone here know anything about what is in the head of Roger DeCoster? Would you think he would buy the "if it is not broke, don't fix it" path to success ?
rcannon
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1/22/2016 8:33am Edited Date/Time 1/22/2016 8:46am
rcannon wrote:
I like the idea, and I know what your saying. Back int he 70's there were new things to discover like long travel suspension. Early 80's...
I like the idea, and I know what your saying. Back int he 70's there were new things to discover like long travel suspension. Early 80's meant watercooling. Disc brakes. Its a short list, really.

Honda brought out mass produced aluminum frames. Five years later, we were semi ok with aluminum frames and their being too stiff.

Yamaha flipped the cylinder around, Five years later we are semi- satisfied its a ok bike.

So, now you want an innovation that may or may not work, or that people may or may not like? Or, save money and polish up what you've always had.

Plus, if it follows the path of streetbikes, or maybe the world, there really are no new materials. All you'd get is a bunch of electronic assist items.





Zracer wrote:
If thats all you can name from the 80s then you werent there. If you rode a 1980 bike in 1990 you were in for a...
If thats all you can name from the 80s then you werent there. If you rode a 1980 bike in 1990 you were in for a bad ride. Tracks were changing as fast as the bikes. Go ahead and hit a 65 foot triple on a bike from 1980. I wouldnt think twice about lining up with an 06 bike today. You dont know what you are talking about.
Did you want a comprehensive list, or just a few examples? My 77 rm 125b was state of the art for a few months, so I was probably there.. And yes, it was an outdated pos by 81. Did anyone ever question that point? I thought that was a given. When something is easily understood, and agreed upon, only dipshits keep bringing it up.

So, what would you design into the 2018 bikes that would make the 2016 be as outdated as what happened to me in 81?

Are you thinking of 23 inch front wheels? Soft springs and air assist forks? Falling rate, uni-track suspension? KX 420? Can Am? Shock under the fuel tank? Boost bottles? Back then, they tried a lot of new innovative things that were bad ideas, or never caught on. The "Update" to my 82 yz 250 and 490 opposed to the 79 yz 465 comes to mind.

Lots of people left riding, back then, just because switching bikes every year became too expensive. Plenty bought Hodaka super rats just because they could race other Hodaka super rats and not be a a disadvantage. The 125 and 250 class meant you needed a bike every six months.

No one wants to risk falling backwards and I think someone will have to see innovation and thought like we did back then.

Also, is being able to race a nice 06 bike, in 2016 a bad thing? The fact the 06 is still worth something. It sounds pretty good for aftermarket suppliers.






newmann
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1/22/2016 8:36am
Julian wrote:
that is more like examples of what i miss,,, but to me, it seems all a compromise. Those are examples of what the Japanese can come...
that is more like examples of what i miss,,,

but to me, it seems all a compromise.

Those are examples of what the Japanese can come up with by not having a factory bike ban in Japan and Europe.

The American MX world is however very important and the AMA factory bike ban puts a big damp blanket over everyone. If the Japanese are banned from the USA, they loose a lot of enthusiasm for creating new ideas for just Japan and Europe.
ML512 wrote:
Due to modern day expenses versus how many bikes they're selling, you won't see rapid departures from production. The moldings, castings, and other creative processes are...
Due to modern day expenses versus how many bikes they're selling, you won't see rapid departures from production. The moldings, castings, and other creative processes are far too expensive to create such wild one-off bikes to race every year and even radically redesign production bikes every few years. It's part of the reason you have a company such as Suzuki holding onto certain designs for so long... They need to make their money back on the product, period.

Realistically, all the production rule is holding teams to is production-based frames (there's still gusseting and other mods being done) and production based engines. So manufactures can't go out and build one-off engines and frames... Engine wise, it's an absolute hassle and immense expense to create a limited run of different race engines that won't truly make it to production. Especially because some of the processes used to create one-off or limited run components is not how you would go about creating an actual production run. So it's not even as simple as going "cool, this works, order 10,000!".
Funny you mention the costs involved in making one off stuff. With all the machinery that most modern mfgs have or have access to it seems like it would be so much easier to make one offs and prototypes today than back in the 70's when the works bike craze was going strong. I've always been amazed at what the OEMs would go through back then to put a handful of bikes out on the track. Just had to have cost a small fortune in man hours.

RM Mike
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1/22/2016 9:12am
Julian wrote:
that is more like examples of what i miss,,, but to me, it seems all a compromise. Those are examples of what the Japanese can come...
that is more like examples of what i miss,,,

but to me, it seems all a compromise.

Those are examples of what the Japanese can come up with by not having a factory bike ban in Japan and Europe.

The American MX world is however very important and the AMA factory bike ban puts a big damp blanket over everyone. If the Japanese are banned from the USA, they loose a lot of enthusiasm for creating new ideas for just Japan and Europe.
ML512 wrote:
Due to modern day expenses versus how many bikes they're selling, you won't see rapid departures from production. The moldings, castings, and other creative processes are...
Due to modern day expenses versus how many bikes they're selling, you won't see rapid departures from production. The moldings, castings, and other creative processes are far too expensive to create such wild one-off bikes to race every year and even radically redesign production bikes every few years. It's part of the reason you have a company such as Suzuki holding onto certain designs for so long... They need to make their money back on the product, period.

Realistically, all the production rule is holding teams to is production-based frames (there's still gusseting and other mods being done) and production based engines. So manufactures can't go out and build one-off engines and frames... Engine wise, it's an absolute hassle and immense expense to create a limited run of different race engines that won't truly make it to production. Especially because some of the processes used to create one-off or limited run components is not how you would go about creating an actual production run. So it's not even as simple as going "cool, this works, order 10,000!".
newmann wrote:
Funny you mention the costs involved in making one off stuff. With all the machinery that most modern mfgs have or have access to it seems...
Funny you mention the costs involved in making one off stuff. With all the machinery that most modern mfgs have or have access to it seems like it would be so much easier to make one offs and prototypes today than back in the 70's when the works bike craze was going strong. I've always been amazed at what the OEMs would go through back then to put a handful of bikes out on the track. Just had to have cost a small fortune in man hours.

What Newmann said, I was thinking.
Design trick engine cases on a computer, hit enter, then a crazy mill cuts it out of a hunk of expensive metal.
Seems easier than the foundry way of the '70's
GrapeApe
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1/22/2016 9:38am
Julian wrote:
I see a couple of guys are saying when it is good, don't change it..... That may be all well and good for some things like...
I see a couple of guys are saying when it is good, don't change it.....

That may be all well and good for some things like the swing on the front porch maybe....

But I have a feeling it is not the way the manufacturers are looking at it, KTM for example has gone on a rampage the last 10 years while the Japanese have been saving money on design..... I don't know the sales figures but somehow I sense they may be moving towards the top.....

And as far as the race teams - something also tells me they are not going to reach a point where they say, ok, it works, so lets just leave it alone.

Anyone here know anything about what is in the head of Roger DeCoster? Would you think he would buy the "if it is not broke, don't fix it" path to success ?
What has KTM done in the last 10 years that the Japanese brands haven't? They have caught up, but that's because they started way behind. Solid bikes, but they're not innovative.
1/22/2016 9:44am Edited Date/Time 1/22/2016 9:45am
Not to mention... the more they change from year to year the harder it could be for riders to get comfortable on the machine. If they...
Not to mention... the more they change from year to year the harder it could be for riders to get comfortable on the machine. If they constantly are trying the latest and greatest thing that came out of R and D department every week I doubt guys would be as fast or push the limits as hard.
This simply isn't true. Look at RV getting on the 2012 bike in the middle of 2012 nationals for the proof. Look at 14/15 Dungey.
Bosco
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1/22/2016 9:50am
I think the thing missing from racing isn't factory bikes, but the backyard engineers building something of their own, and racing it. The bikes have become...
I think the thing missing from racing isn't factory bikes, but the backyard engineers building something of their own, and racing it. The bikes have become so good, you don't see much of that anymore.
I'd agree with this one. OP mentioned a swedish engineer and his mechanic buddy designing and developing a new bike between the two of them (might have been suzuki, or TM, I can't remember and I'm not bothered looking for the post...). But that couldn't happen to the same extent these days. You have very educated and experienced engineers and technicians spending years becoming familiar with and developing specific parts (and manufacturing processes). A few talented backyard fabricators can't compete with a team of engineers backed by buckets of money, and the money isn't paying for fancy one off parts because there's no return for them there.
jtiger12
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1/22/2016 9:57am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything...
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything like that) with suspension done, but anything they do to the suspension has to be available to the public. Close the gap between the privateers and the factory teams. Let the actual riding separate the guys, not the bikes/parts. All of the new production bikes are badass. Can you really keep making these bikes that much better?
I'm with mattyhamz here. $100,000 race bikes aren't helping in a sport with such little outside sponsorship
Julian
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1/22/2016 10:02am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything...
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I say make the guys race production bikes(no motor work, no factory brakes, no special sensors or anything like that) with suspension done, but anything they do to the suspension has to be available to the public. Close the gap between the privateers and the factory teams. Let the actual riding separate the guys, not the bikes/parts. All of the new production bikes are badass. Can you really keep making these bikes that much better?
jtiger12 wrote:
I'm with mattyhamz here. $100,000 race bikes aren't helping in a sport with such little outside sponsorship
Those $100 000 factory bikes that Roberts and Decoster raced back in early 70's did in deed help the sport.

They are opened the sport up in the first place to all the teenagers throughout the USA.

And it was not necessary for the Japanese too much for those bikes that resulted from those $100 000 factory bikes.
Julian
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1/22/2016 10:05am
Julian wrote:
I see a couple of guys are saying when it is good, don't change it..... That may be all well and good for some things like...
I see a couple of guys are saying when it is good, don't change it.....

That may be all well and good for some things like the swing on the front porch maybe....

But I have a feeling it is not the way the manufacturers are looking at it, KTM for example has gone on a rampage the last 10 years while the Japanese have been saving money on design..... I don't know the sales figures but somehow I sense they may be moving towards the top.....

And as far as the race teams - something also tells me they are not going to reach a point where they say, ok, it works, so lets just leave it alone.

Anyone here know anything about what is in the head of Roger DeCoster? Would you think he would buy the "if it is not broke, don't fix it" path to success ?
GrapeApe wrote:
What has KTM done in the last 10 years that the Japanese brands haven't? They have caught up, but that's because they started way behind. Solid...
What has KTM done in the last 10 years that the Japanese brands haven't? They have caught up, but that's because they started way behind. Solid bikes, but they're not innovative.
I will have to ask for some help from other posters, I am not as up-to-date on the details of the bikes today like I was in the 70's.

But The KTM's have become reliable, lightweight - and have had electric start for what - about eight years whereas the Japanese are still jerking around with their kick starters.

I imagine I am missing some of the KTM developments that the Japanese have not yet caught on to,,,, or ??
SCR
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1/22/2016 10:29am


Pinnacle of engineering in 1967. These guys were probably saying we have reached the limits of technology and R&D budgets.

Golden years of racing only happens once and the 70s and early 80s was it for mx. In the 70s Don Jones and his boys developed and built the first Yamaha prototype YZS in their garage. Today you have a dozen people that may not even ride bikes, and a bunch of computers to figure out how to design an air box to flow air more efficient.

It was awsome going to a national in the 70s and checking out the works bikes. Also the excitement of the new production models each year. Nowadays all bikes are competetive.And a 5 year old bike is still fast. In the 70s you had to be careful what bike you chose to buy or you could spend the year racing at a diadvantage. Ask the guys that raced a 79 CR125, or an 82 YZ250.

I would like to see a 125 support class, 250 class (2 and 4 stroke ). And an open class with no production rule.
ML512
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Fantasy
1/22/2016 10:38am
newmann wrote:
Funny you mention the costs involved in making one off stuff. With all the machinery that most modern mfgs have or have access to it seems...
Funny you mention the costs involved in making one off stuff. With all the machinery that most modern mfgs have or have access to it seems like it would be so much easier to make one offs and prototypes today than back in the 70's when the works bike craze was going strong. I've always been amazed at what the OEMs would go through back then to put a handful of bikes out on the track. Just had to have cost a small fortune in man hours.

In retrospect, I do agree with you in some form. i think certain parts would be easier to produce in small batches today, but certain things are still astronomical in price. No matter what, I'm comparing it to the amount of revenue from the past to now and the amount of bikes actually being sold as an excuse to push development at such a rapid rate.
1/22/2016 10:57am
I miss it from a fan standing looking at those factory bikes of old. Here are three from the Luxembourg 500 GP 1986.






BobbyM
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1/22/2016 11:02am
bsm121 wrote:
Law of diminishing returns.
Technology is not immune.
moto455va wrote:
Exactly my thoughts. You can only make a bike so fast before it becomes insanely expensive or dangerous. There was a lot of advancement on bikes...
Exactly my thoughts. You can only make a bike so fast before it becomes insanely expensive or dangerous.

There was a lot of advancement on bikes happening in the 80's but now not so much. They are so dang good, how much more advanced can they get?
Get rid of the weight limit too....
SweetDaddy
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1/22/2016 11:57am
moto455va wrote:
Two pages of people complainong about the lack of innovation but nobody has any legitimate good ideas for progress or highlighting any issues that need changing...
Two pages of people complainong about the lack of innovation but nobody has any legitimate good ideas for progress or highlighting any issues that need changing.

Progress was so fast in the 80's because they were going from stuff like drum brakes to disk brakes, twin rear shocks to single, conventional forks to upside down forks, etc. These were all solutions to real problems or updates to outdated systems.

What on a modern bike needs a major overhaul? Can the suspension get that much better? Can the motors get that much more powerful? What needs to be changed that would require a full works bike?
I thought that by now some type of drive shaft would have replaced the chain-and-sprocket
1/22/2016 11:59am
bsm121 wrote:
Law of diminishing returns.
Technology is not immune.
moto455va wrote:
Exactly my thoughts. You can only make a bike so fast before it becomes insanely expensive or dangerous. There was a lot of advancement on bikes...
Exactly my thoughts. You can only make a bike so fast before it becomes insanely expensive or dangerous.

There was a lot of advancement on bikes happening in the 80's but now not so much. They are so dang good, how much more advanced can they get?
BobbyM wrote:
Get rid of the weight limit too....
Nah, gotta make it fair for the bigger riders as well.

Make a mandantory equalized weight limit, add weights for the rider/bike combo before each race to be weighed right before they enter the gate so that everyone has a fair chance.

Woohoo Woohoo
jonesaustin
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1/22/2016 1:59pm
If taking a strictly pragmatic approach to development, such as effect on bike sales, is the only way to look at this, how does one describe Formula One?

I just think true works bikes (and we have not had them since 85 in the States, we haven't) push the boundaries of design and we'd be seeing some amazing creativity.

I agree with Julian, let some engineers follow the Steve Jobs approach and raise the Jolly Roger flag above their own small shop and just see what they can come up with. Again, pragmatically it may not make sense (we don't have the advertising capital of Formula One) but revoking the Production rule would be an exciting turn for the sport, because at least the factories would have the option if they wanted to try.
1/22/2016 2:11pm Edited Date/Time 1/22/2016 2:12pm
Bring back factory team Econolines, and G series vans.
OldYZRider1
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1/22/2016 2:49pm
How about an experimental class that could run alongside the current series? Have a race at Daytona during Bike Week. that wouldn't be part of the AMA's show at all and have few technical rules. That race and the MEC and it might give innovative types at least a couple of races each season to try out some new ideas and get some exposure.

The Battle of the Twins roadrace at Daytona during Bike Week started out that way; just a group working to develop the twins outside of the AMA. About the only rule was it had to be a twin cylinder motor. Used to see some neat twins in those events; Ducati developed their 851cc 4 valve using it and John Briton ran his phenomenal machine in it. But there were also H-D's, BMW's and Guzzi's too, all small team efforts with minimal factory support.
Spartacus
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1/22/2016 2:55pm
As much as I'd like to see it, I doubt the factories would. Why spend more money than they have to?

Win on Sunday, buy on Monday.

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