125 production models ARE coming back, and awkwardly, Luongo will be the one to thank.

romain524
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romain524 12/28/2015 1:19pm
12/28/2015 1:19pm
I hope the 2 stroke will come back.
For 2016 the French Federation has create a 125 National championship for the adult and the French junior 125 for less 18 years old is still present
In France the Yamaha is still very popular compared to the Ktm/Hva. I think there even more Yamaha on the regionals 125 championship.
Mr Happy
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Mr Happy 12/28/2015 2:32pm
12/28/2015 2:32pm
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles. That is changing over the next four years and motorcycles will be brought in to harmony with cars and trucks ready for Euro 7, which will be in force after 2020ish. Euro 6 clamps down hard on non road vehicles, such as ships which have never been subject to emissions checks, so motocross bikes will be under the spotlight too. Also the EC are pushing for anti tampering regulations that would make after market modifications, to by pass it all, illegal. We've had it good for a couple of decades and now cars are firmly in their grip they have moved on to motorcycles.

So with all of this coming, why would a manufacturer develop a two stroke and bring it to market in 2017 when they will only be able to sell it for two years.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 12/28/2015 2:47pm
12/28/2015 2:47pm
Mr Happy wrote:
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles...
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles. That is changing over the next four years and motorcycles will be brought in to harmony with cars and trucks ready for Euro 7, which will be in force after 2020ish. Euro 6 clamps down hard on non road vehicles, such as ships which have never been subject to emissions checks, so motocross bikes will be under the spotlight too. Also the EC are pushing for anti tampering regulations that would make after market modifications, to by pass it all, illegal. We've had it good for a couple of decades and now cars are firmly in their grip they have moved on to motorcycles.

So with all of this coming, why would a manufacturer develop a two stroke and bring it to market in 2017 when they will only be able to sell it for two years.
everyone will blame Honda for the new Euro 6 laws lol

Seriously though, thats a good point.... DI of course will help but that pushes up the price even more (KTM/Husky/TM 2 strokes are expensive now - well more than Yamahas anyway), so that well might equal less sales, equals less profits, equals no more 2 strokes
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seth505 12/28/2015 5:51pm
12/28/2015 5:51pm Edited Date/Time 12/28/2015 6:03pm
Mr Happy wrote:
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles...
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles. That is changing over the next four years and motorcycles will be brought in to harmony with cars and trucks ready for Euro 7, which will be in force after 2020ish. Euro 6 clamps down hard on non road vehicles, such as ships which have never been subject to emissions checks, so motocross bikes will be under the spotlight too. Also the EC are pushing for anti tampering regulations that would make after market modifications, to by pass it all, illegal. We've had it good for a couple of decades and now cars are firmly in their grip they have moved on to motorcycles.

So with all of this coming, why would a manufacturer develop a two stroke and bring it to market in 2017 when they will only be able to sell it for two years.
kiwifan wrote:
everyone will blame Honda for the new Euro 6 laws lol Seriously though, thats a good point.... DI of course will help but that pushes up...
everyone will blame Honda for the new Euro 6 laws lol

Seriously though, thats a good point.... DI of course will help but that pushes up the price even more (KTM/Husky/TM 2 strokes are expensive now - well more than Yamahas anyway), so that well might equal less sales, equals less profits, equals no more 2 strokes
Doubt it, the latest generation of 4-strokes instantly made race bikes more complicated and expensive to fix and people still bought them.

Also, a 250sx is 1.5% more expensive than a yz, so basically not anymore expensive.

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coastlinecascott 12/29/2015 5:04am
12/29/2015 5:04am
Every time i go to the track. i see more and more 125's. What was cool was last weekend. A little kid on a pw50. The mom on a new yz125. Dad on a yz250. First time i ever saw that at the track .
respect_the_beast 12/29/2015 6:05am
12/29/2015 6:05am
I remember getting my RM125 new in '01. Still have the Team Suzuki promotional gear bag and EZ-up that came with it (did Tony D school too). Gotta love a competitive market.

The sport lost so much accessibility in 15 years, just look at the starting gates. Reporting of opinion it may be, the OP surely reflects the sentiments of many.
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Mr Happy 12/29/2015 8:57am
12/29/2015 8:57am
~Wavy lines and fast forward to 2027~

Damned electric bikes dominating the market place, they cost more than the old four strokes and you can't service anything on them. I remember the days when you could dismantle and engine, replace a piston, and be running again in a day. Now when an engine needs servicing I have to have it rewound which costs a fortune and takes ages. *continues waffling on about 'the good old days' until the sun explodes*

Electric bike
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Lucky13FIST 12/29/2015 9:00am
12/29/2015 9:00am
respect_the_beast wrote:
I remember getting my RM125 new in '01. Still have the Team Suzuki promotional gear bag and EZ-up that came with it (did Tony D school...
I remember getting my RM125 new in '01. Still have the Team Suzuki promotional gear bag and EZ-up that came with it (did Tony D school too). Gotta love a competitive market.

The sport lost so much accessibility in 15 years, just look at the starting gates. Reporting of opinion it may be, the OP surely reflects the sentiments of many.
Do you remember when you could get a pipe and silencer as a promotional deal too! or when you could buy a new 125 and 250 for like $8,000!! Oh the good old days
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dcg141 12/29/2015 9:19am
12/29/2015 9:19am
dcg141 wrote:
Honda has been a Sierra Club supporter for decades now. Several times they have been the title sponser for SC events.
kiwifan wrote:
lol and dont tell me thats why they stopped producing 2 strokes right? oh boy
I'm not. I have no idea why they stopped making 2 strokes. I'm just pointing out that it's been a well know fact in the off-road community that Honda has had a cozy relationship with the SC for quite awhile. Draw whatever conclusion you want.
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Paul333 12/29/2015 9:24am
12/29/2015 9:24am
romain524 wrote:
I hope the 2 stroke will come back. For 2016 the French Federation has create a 125 National championship for the adult and the French junior...
I hope the 2 stroke will come back.
For 2016 the French Federation has create a 125 National championship for the adult and the French junior 125 for less 18 years old is still present
In France the Yamaha is still very popular compared to the Ktm/Hva. I think there even more Yamaha on the regionals 125 championship.
That's awesome.

I wish the U.S. would do the same thing.
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JMX82 12/29/2015 9:30am
12/29/2015 9:30am Edited Date/Time 12/29/2015 9:34am
Mr Happy wrote:
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles...
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles. That is changing over the next four years and motorcycles will be brought in to harmony with cars and trucks ready for Euro 7, which will be in force after 2020ish. Euro 6 clamps down hard on non road vehicles, such as ships which have never been subject to emissions checks, so motocross bikes will be under the spotlight too. Also the EC are pushing for anti tampering regulations that would make after market modifications, to by pass it all, illegal. We've had it good for a couple of decades and now cars are firmly in their grip they have moved on to motorcycles.

So with all of this coming, why would a manufacturer develop a two stroke and bring it to market in 2017 when they will only be able to sell it for two years.
I think that euro norms do not apply for closed course racing vehicles so motocross bikes will not be affected. Today's motocross bikes do not pass even any of the older euro emission limits

On the other hand it might have huge impact on street legal enduro bikes
viking24
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viking24 12/29/2015 11:50am
12/29/2015 11:50am
Mr Happy wrote:
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles...
Two strokes will most probably never make a come back in Europe. The EC have never strongly enforced emissions controls on motorcycles and off road vehicles. That is changing over the next four years and motorcycles will be brought in to harmony with cars and trucks ready for Euro 7, which will be in force after 2020ish. Euro 6 clamps down hard on non road vehicles, such as ships which have never been subject to emissions checks, so motocross bikes will be under the spotlight too. Also the EC are pushing for anti tampering regulations that would make after market modifications, to by pass it all, illegal. We've had it good for a couple of decades and now cars are firmly in their grip they have moved on to motorcycles.

So with all of this coming, why would a manufacturer develop a two stroke and bring it to market in 2017 when they will only be able to sell it for two years.
JMX82 wrote:
I think that euro norms do not apply for closed course racing vehicles so motocross bikes will not be affected. Today's motocross bikes do not pass...
I think that euro norms do not apply for closed course racing vehicles so motocross bikes will not be affected. Today's motocross bikes do not pass even any of the older euro emission limits

On the other hand it might have huge impact on street legal enduro bikes
it would be logical that KTM/HVA will deliver a DI 250/300 EXC class bike in Europe for the new Euro rating. Not needed for the SX model or the US XC bikes.

smezmx
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smezmx 12/29/2015 12:17pm
12/29/2015 12:17pm
Saw this from a dealership in Italy.progress?.......maybe.







Mr Happy
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Mr Happy 12/29/2015 1:39pm
12/29/2015 1:39pm
JMX82 wrote:
I think that euro norms do not apply for closed course racing vehicles so motocross bikes will not be affected. Today's motocross bikes do not pass...
I think that euro norms do not apply for closed course racing vehicles so motocross bikes will not be affected. Today's motocross bikes do not pass even any of the older euro emission limits

On the other hand it might have huge impact on street legal enduro bikes
Euro 4-6 doesn't, no. My point was that by 2020 motorcycles will have to adhere to Euro 6 emissions regulations, Euro 6 also introduced regulations for non road vehicles that have never been included before. Euro 7 will probably be in force from 2021 and it hasn't been drafted yet. It could see the introduction of regulations for off road motorcycles and I'll be shocked if it doesn't.
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JMX82 12/30/2015 1:37am
12/30/2015 1:37am
How would they control, that all racing vehicles would pass Euro 7 emission regulations? I'm still not convinced that the emission regulations would be enforced for closed course use only motocross bikes and other racing vehicles.
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SwapperMX 12/30/2015 1:54am
12/30/2015 1:54am
JMX82 wrote:
How would they control, that all racing vehicles would pass Euro 7 emission regulations? I'm still not convinced that the emission regulations would be enforced for...
How would they control, that all racing vehicles would pass Euro 7 emission regulations? I'm still not convinced that the emission regulations would be enforced for closed course use only motocross bikes and other racing vehicles.
I agree. And if they did, you can kiss goodbye all of the massive motorsport events that are held right across Europe. Speedway, Touring cars, Rally, Any open wheel motorsport class, the list would be endless !! 125cc Two strokes pale in comparison for emissions compared with the vehicles used in these events.
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kiwifan 12/30/2015 2:09am
12/30/2015 2:09am
dcg141 wrote:
Honda has been a Sierra Club supporter for decades now. Several times they have been the title sponser for SC events.
kiwifan wrote:
lol and dont tell me thats why they stopped producing 2 strokes right? oh boy
dcg141 wrote:
I'm not. I have no idea why they stopped making 2 strokes. I'm just pointing out that it's been a well know fact in the off-road...
I'm not. I have no idea why they stopped making 2 strokes. I'm just pointing out that it's been a well know fact in the off-road community that Honda has had a cozy relationship with the SC for quite awhile. Draw whatever conclusion you want.
the conclusion I have is that they care about emissions, being green, caring about the environment, etc...but hey just what I read into it
Mr Happy
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Mr Happy 12/30/2015 3:46am
12/30/2015 3:46am
JMX82 wrote:
How would they control, that all racing vehicles would pass Euro 7 emission regulations? I'm still not convinced that the emission regulations would be enforced for...
How would they control, that all racing vehicles would pass Euro 7 emission regulations? I'm still not convinced that the emission regulations would be enforced for closed course use only motocross bikes and other racing vehicles.
It will be the same as how road bikes are governed now. A production motorcycle has to conform for type approval and when it's sold, what happens after that is up to you as motorcycles aren't subject to emission testing as part of the MOT test. It will stop manufacturers marketing two strokes, and possibly force them to fit emissions control gear to four strokes, but it will not harm off road racing in the same way Euro 1-3 hasn't harmed production racing.

Pit Row

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Rotaholic
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Rotaholic 12/30/2015 4:11am
12/30/2015 4:11am
Why don't they change the oil, must be a clever chemist that can make two stroke oil good for the environment
Murph
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Murph 12/30/2015 5:12am
12/30/2015 5:12am
Rotaholic wrote:
Why don't they change the oil, must be a clever chemist that can make two stroke oil good for the environment
It's nothing to do with the oil. Castor oil is a vegetable based oil, so should be as clean as it gets, but even using castor oil a 2 stroke will not meet emissions regulations.

It is because a 2 stroke does not burn all the fuel that is drawn into the engine, and some of this unburnt fuel passes out of the engine and into the atmosphere.

Reefer Sutherland 12/30/2015 5:44am
12/30/2015 5:44am
Word on the street is that Yamaha is working in a 150R
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agn5009 12/30/2015 7:06am
12/30/2015 7:06am
RG1 wrote:
Luongo and Yourhstream get a lot of stick, and rightly so, but they deserve a lot of credit for what they have done with the European...
Luongo and Yourhstream get a lot of stick, and rightly so, but they deserve a lot of credit for what they have done with the European championship in my opinion. The only slight problem I have with it is that some of the guys that are riding EMX250 should be in MX2
MxKing809 wrote:
It's still a better system than having our top factory supported up and comers racing the B class at an amateur national......
I get what you're saying. But we could never expect amateurs to follow the entire outdoor MX series. It's much more feasible for them to race somewhat local to their home then race a few big events (Mini O's, Mammoth, Lorettas etc) these kids parents struggle enough financially. And they're already giving up the majority of their youth and education. To have these kids race in California one week then clear across country in say Pennsylvania or something just couldn't happen for many of them except the ones who are fully backed like Forkner.
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SwapperMX 12/30/2015 7:23am
12/30/2015 7:23am
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
Word on the street is that Yamaha is working in a 150R
They had a bike in development back in 2008\09. Wisely, it was shelved. I very much doubt they are re-visiting it.
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 12/30/2015 7:26am
12/30/2015 7:26am
Trump doesn't care what you ride but he said he is going to build a Mx park in every city!
RichardLoots 12/30/2015 7:43am
12/30/2015 7:43am
romain524 wrote:
I hope the 2 stroke will come back. For 2016 the French Federation has create a 125 National championship for the adult and the French junior...
I hope the 2 stroke will come back.
For 2016 the French Federation has create a 125 National championship for the adult and the French junior 125 for less 18 years old is still present
In France the Yamaha is still very popular compared to the Ktm/Hva. I think there even more Yamaha on the regionals 125 championship.
here we got a 125 nationals for 13 to 17 years old ....
Roscoe33
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Roscoe33 12/30/2015 7:55am
12/30/2015 7:55am
dcg141 wrote:
Honda has been a Sierra Club supporter for decades now. Several times they have been the title sponser for SC events.
kiwifan wrote:
lol and dont tell me thats why they stopped producing 2 strokes right? oh boy
dcg141 wrote:
I'm not. I have no idea why they stopped making 2 strokes. I'm just pointing out that it's been a well know fact in the off-road...
I'm not. I have no idea why they stopped making 2 strokes. I'm just pointing out that it's been a well know fact in the off-road community that Honda has had a cozy relationship with the SC for quite awhile. Draw whatever conclusion you want.
Back in the day Honda had a crystal ball that said They would dominate the market because they were the only ones with the technology to make small 4-strokes.

that's why.
newmann
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newmann 12/30/2015 8:11am
12/30/2015 8:11am
Roscoe33 wrote:
Back in the day Honda had a crystal ball that said They would dominate the market because they were the only ones with the technology to...
Back in the day Honda had a crystal ball that said They would dominate the market because they were the only ones with the technology to make small 4-strokes.

that's why.
technology to make small 4-strokes

They sure could make them! Six cylinder 250 that held together up in the 20,000 rpm range back in the 60's. Neat stuff!







https://youtu.be/oIJT4TXoq1A

Not translated, but skip through this as they tear it down. Absolutely amazing.

https://youtu.be/7d3hdDgFMrQ
Sidecar
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Sidecar 12/30/2015 8:16am
12/30/2015 8:16am








Who needs Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki....... Let's go racing
newmann
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newmann 12/30/2015 9:13am
12/30/2015 9:13am
Sidecar wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117365/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117366/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117367/s1200_image.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/12/30/117368/s1200_image.jpg[/img] Who needs Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki....... Let's go racing








Who needs Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki....... Let's go racing
I've said it many times before, but right there you have the "Big 4" of the 125 class. Beyond time for the tiddler class to return to the big stage here in the US. Just glad that I'm not "the only one" to bring this up anymore...LOL
OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 12/30/2015 9:49am
12/30/2015 9:49am
newmann wrote:
[i]technology to make small 4-strokes[/i] They sure could make them! Six cylinder 250 that held together up in the 20,000 rpm range back in the 60's...
technology to make small 4-strokes

They sure could make them! Six cylinder 250 that held together up in the 20,000 rpm range back in the 60's. Neat stuff!







https://youtu.be/oIJT4TXoq1A

Not translated, but skip through this as they tear it down. Absolutely amazing.

https://youtu.be/7d3hdDgFMrQ
I watched one of those take a lap at Mid-Ohio back in 1995 during AMA Vintage Days. I think it was Team Obsolete's bike; it may have been the RC165 instead of the RC166 but still a six cylinder 250cc machine. Man did it howl! Knobby Clark was there to maintain it. I went into the garage to look at it and looked to me like you'd almost need to have the skills of a jeweler to work on the banks of carbs!

Post a reply to: 125 production models ARE coming back, and awkwardly, Luongo will be the one to thank.