Time for a weight limit rule change?

tprice07
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tprice07 12/9/2015 12:57pm
12/9/2015 12:57pm
tprice07 wrote:
This is a stupid question but is the weight limit for the bike alone? or rider + bike? because if it is just bike then someone...
This is a stupid question but is the weight limit for the bike alone? or rider + bike?

because if it is just bike then someone like Blake Baggett is getting a hell of a power advantage compared to some of the bigger guys.
ML512 wrote:
I quit bringing power-to-weight ratio into consideration when I watched a 210lb Malcolm Stewart pull holeshots on a 250F... Laughing
Yea good point haha.
GuyB
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GuyB 12/9/2015 1:07pm
12/9/2015 1:07pm
Current limits...

Minimum Motorcycle Weight
a.
250 Class:
194 pounds 2-stroke / 212 pounds 4-stroke
b.
450 Class:
212 pounds 2-stroke / 220 pounds 4-stroke
JamesOliver 12/9/2015 1:18pm
12/9/2015 1:18pm
Rich Piano wrote:
Minimum bike weights are pretty much useless. Especially in this sport.

That's why other motorsports don't do it how we do.



What motorsports are you talking about?

F1 and MotoGP both have minimum weights.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/9/2015 1:54pm
12/9/2015 1:54pm
Funny

No one seems to think that the Teams add a bunch of parts/components/complexity to a stock bike.

Also, you might want to go actually weigh some of these bikes for yourself.

Then go add your new cool-guys triple-clamps, Twin Walls, O/S rotors, pretty wheels, actual inner-tubes or bibs that work, bigger sprocket(s) & longer chain, GET or comparable data logger, transponder, disk-Gaurd, decent glide-skid plate, holeshot device, linkage w/ start, cool-guy-unbreakable-levers, custom perches, Factory Brakes-Calipers (not necessarily lighter!) custom full-cover graphics, Fan (Factory Services/outdoors) ...etc., etc., etc. ...

It all adds up. Heck, if your not careful, you can end up making your SXF almost as heavy as a Japanese bike!

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BobPA
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BobPA 12/9/2015 2:19pm
12/9/2015 2:19pm
tprice07 wrote:
This is a stupid question but is the weight limit for the bike alone? or rider + bike? because if it is just bike then someone...
This is a stupid question but is the weight limit for the bike alone? or rider + bike?

because if it is just bike then someone like Blake Baggett is getting a hell of a power advantage compared to some of the bigger guys.
ML512 wrote:
I quit bringing power-to-weight ratio into consideration when I watched a 210lb Malcolm Stewart pull holeshots on a 250F... Laughing
He is the smallest 210lb I have ever seen...
newmann
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newmann 12/9/2015 2:21pm
12/9/2015 2:21pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Funny No one seems to think that the Teams add a bunch of parts/components/complexity to a stock bike. Also, you might want to go actually weigh...
Funny

No one seems to think that the Teams add a bunch of parts/components/complexity to a stock bike.

Also, you might want to go actually weigh some of these bikes for yourself.

Then go add your new cool-guys triple-clamps, Twin Walls, O/S rotors, pretty wheels, actual inner-tubes or bibs that work, bigger sprocket(s) & longer chain, GET or comparable data logger, transponder, disk-Gaurd, decent glide-skid plate, holeshot device, linkage w/ start, cool-guy-unbreakable-levers, custom perches, Factory Brakes-Calipers (not necessarily lighter!) custom full-cover graphics, Fan (Factory Services/outdoors) ...etc., etc., etc. ...

It all adds up. Heck, if your not careful, you can end up making your SXF almost as heavy as a Japanese bike!
It all adds up. Heck, if your not careful, you can end up making your SXF almost as heavy as a Japanese bike!

Ruh-Roh!Laughing
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/9/2015 2:40pm
12/9/2015 2:40pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Funny No one seems to think that the Teams add a bunch of parts/components/complexity to a stock bike. Also, you might want to go actually weigh...
Funny

No one seems to think that the Teams add a bunch of parts/components/complexity to a stock bike.

Also, you might want to go actually weigh some of these bikes for yourself.

Then go add your new cool-guys triple-clamps, Twin Walls, O/S rotors, pretty wheels, actual inner-tubes or bibs that work, bigger sprocket(s) & longer chain, GET or comparable data logger, transponder, disk-Gaurd, decent glide-skid plate, holeshot device, linkage w/ start, cool-guy-unbreakable-levers, custom perches, Factory Brakes-Calipers (not necessarily lighter!) custom full-cover graphics, Fan (Factory Services/outdoors) ...etc., etc., etc. ...

It all adds up. Heck, if your not careful, you can end up making your SXF almost as heavy as a Japanese bike!
newmann wrote:
It all adds up. Heck, if your not careful, you can end up making your SXF almost as heavy as a Japanese bike!

Ruh-Roh!Laughing
Ooops.

Did I say that?
deltadestroyer11 12/9/2015 2:55pm
12/9/2015 2:55pm
IWreckALot wrote:
Same thing seems like it's hindering Nascar right now. I don't follow that sport much, but that's what I gather from the fans that speak about...
Same thing seems like it's hindering Nascar right now. I don't follow that sport much, but that's what I gather from the fans that speak about it.

If any manufacturer can get the weight below the legal limit, they can start adding it back on where ever they want. There is still a production benefit of going this route, but it is a professional sport, and the weight thing isn't a safety thing as much as it is a "fairness" thing. So I'd be fine with dropping the weight limit some to get a little more innovation.
Yep...fairness... Not really a big deal if they allow an engine size to be twice the displacement over another different design.. heck its only about a ten horsepower difference...Naa.. no biggie... But God forbid the multi million dollar factories bikes are three pounds lighter.. that wouldn't be fair.
I'm not bagging on you.. although it may sound like it...I'm not. Its just I'm constantly reminded one way or another in almost every thread the blatant unfairness and worse... the acceptance of that unfairness..
A 220lb 450 or better yet.. a 205lb 250 two stroke does sound cool though.
Spartacus
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Spartacus 12/9/2015 3:00pm
12/9/2015 3:00pm
GuyB wrote:
What should the weight be? Where do you feel safe trimming weight? Frames? Wheels? Suspension components? Handlebars? Triple clamps?
Raise your hand if you remember when teams and riders were drilling holes in holes to make bikes lighter.
Reefer Sutherland 12/9/2015 3:19pm
12/9/2015 3:19pm
Drop 5lbs off the weight limit. Drop the homologation rule. Both would advance the sport and technology significantly. Opening the doors to the boutique brands would drive competition across the board, plus, it would open up a half dozen more rides. A guy like Weimer could step right into factory TM, which would free his Tedder ride up for guys like Enticknap who are eating out of the Motel 6 snack machine. Sometimes it's like this sport tries to stay small. Dropping weight 5lbs would make air suspension almost necessary at the pro level which would accelerate the development of that stuff for us.
Aceofspades 12/9/2015 4:07pm
12/9/2015 4:07pm Edited Date/Time 12/9/2015 4:07pm
Does anyone else remember in the mid 80's when you'd see holes drilled in the clutch and brake lever for "weight savings"? Everyone stopped that nonsense when motocross action said "drilling holes in levers to save weight is stupid. Get a haircut and you'll save more weight than those holes will save" Smile
dak446
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dak446 12/9/2015 4:19pm
12/9/2015 4:19pm
GuyB wrote:
What should the weight be? Where do you feel safe trimming weight? Frames? Wheels? Suspension components? Handlebars? Triple clamps?
Engineers make these decisions, not a bureaucratic entity. A combination of engineers and the market will decide where weight can be shaved and where it cannot. Conflating weight with the safety of a product is not a sound argument.

As stated, the rule should be based on a percentage of the stock bike weight for 'fairness' to those without the factory wallet.

Rooster
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Rooster 12/9/2015 4:35pm
12/9/2015 4:35pm
Aceofspades wrote:
Does anyone else remember in the mid 80's when you'd see holes drilled in the clutch and brake lever for "weight savings"? Everyone stopped that nonsense...
Does anyone else remember in the mid 80's when you'd see holes drilled in the clutch and brake lever for "weight savings"? Everyone stopped that nonsense when motocross action said "drilling holes in levers to save weight is stupid. Get a haircut and you'll save more weight than those holes will save" Smile
That was also to give the levers a point of failure where they could snap off at one of the holes and you'd still have a little lever left to grab.

Modern perch and lever designs have made snapping off your levers in a simple fall over a thing of the past.
Aceofspades 12/9/2015 4:50pm
12/9/2015 4:50pm Edited Date/Time 12/9/2015 4:51pm
Rooster wrote:
That was also to give the levers a point of failure where they could snap off at one of the holes and you'd still have a...
That was also to give the levers a point of failure where they could snap off at one of the holes and you'd still have a little lever left to grab.

Modern perch and lever designs have made snapping off your levers in a simple fall over a thing of the past.
The holes I remember were four or five along the entire lever, not just a hole for the reason you're describing. Pretty inefficient having a hole right next to the bend in the lever- if it breaks there you have no leverage or any room for a finger.
BAMX
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BAMX 12/9/2015 5:10pm
12/9/2015 5:10pm
Reefer Sutherland wrote:
so you are trying to draw a correlation between the weight of a bike, and it's reliability? Hang this on the vital tree of knowledge next...
so you are trying to draw a correlation between the weight of a bike, and it's reliability? Hang this on the vital tree of knowledge next to the boot bender guys.

IceMan446 wrote:
In certain cases, absolutely. KTM has an issue with their spokes from trying to save weight in that area. Look at the results. Ill take the...
In certain cases, absolutely.

KTM has an issue with their spokes from trying to save weight in that area.

Look at the results.

Ill take the heavier set of spokes please.
Weren't those rim / spoke issues because they sourced their wheels from Giant and not a weight saving deal?
Rich Piano
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Rich Piano 12/9/2015 5:15pm
12/9/2015 5:15pm
Rich Piano wrote:
Minimum bike weights are pretty much useless. Especially in this sport.

That's why other motorsports don't do it how we do.



JamesOliver wrote:
What motorsports are you talking about?

F1 and MotoGP both have minimum weights.
Yes, but we dont calculate minimum weight to make it fair for everyone.
And to be fair you have to have a before and after minimum.

Fuckin tech goons have no idea how to see the forest through the trees.

Johnny89superbike 12/9/2015 5:55pm
12/9/2015 5:55pm
Seen too many KTM's break swingarms & hubs (confirmed by local KTM dealer), obviously the manufacturers can't be trusted to make a strong & light bike.
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 12/9/2015 5:58pm
12/9/2015 5:58pm
IWreckALot wrote:
Same thing seems like it's hindering Nascar right now. I don't follow that sport much, but that's what I gather from the fans that speak about...
Same thing seems like it's hindering Nascar right now. I don't follow that sport much, but that's what I gather from the fans that speak about it.

If any manufacturer can get the weight below the legal limit, they can start adding it back on where ever they want. There is still a production benefit of going this route, but it is a professional sport, and the weight thing isn't a safety thing as much as it is a "fairness" thing. So I'd be fine with dropping the weight limit some to get a little more innovation.
deltadestroyer11 wrote:
Yep...fairness... Not really a big deal if they allow an engine size to be twice the displacement over another different design.. heck its only about a...
Yep...fairness... Not really a big deal if they allow an engine size to be twice the displacement over another different design.. heck its only about a ten horsepower difference...Naa.. no biggie... But God forbid the multi million dollar factories bikes are three pounds lighter.. that wouldn't be fair.
I'm not bagging on you.. although it may sound like it...I'm not. Its just I'm constantly reminded one way or another in almost every thread the blatant unfairness and worse... the acceptance of that unfairness..
A 220lb 450 or better yet.. a 205lb 250 two stroke does sound cool though.
Admittedly, I don't grasp the necessity of many rules that are in place. It would be great to remove the double displacement rule.

I also don't believe in changing rules in the name of fairness. Life isn't fair. What is best for competition is probably the line of thinking that fans want to see which isn't in line with what the ama has in mind.

Pit Row

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seth505
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seth505 12/9/2015 5:59pm
12/9/2015 5:59pm
Johnny89superbike wrote:
Seen too many KTM's break swingarms & hubs (confirmed by local KTM dealer), obviously the manufacturers can't be trusted to make a strong & light bike.
So you've seen them or were told about the "too many" swingarms and hubs?
Deal Brothers Trailers 12/9/2015 6:13pm
12/9/2015 6:13pm
The privateer teams that are not competitive now are not going to be any less competitive with a weight reduction of about 10lbs
Johnny89superbike 12/9/2015 7:14pm
12/9/2015 7:14pm
Johnny89superbike wrote:
Seen too many KTM's break swingarms & hubs (confirmed by local KTM dealer), obviously the manufacturers can't be trusted to make a strong & light bike.
seth505 wrote:
So you've seen them or were told about the "too many" swingarms and hubs?
I've seen a number of wheels and swingarms, plus the dealer (mate that works there) told me of the unreliability of the bikes.
seth505
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seth505 12/9/2015 7:31pm
12/9/2015 7:31pm
Johnny89superbike wrote:
Seen too many KTM's break swingarms & hubs (confirmed by local KTM dealer), obviously the manufacturers can't be trusted to make a strong & light bike.
seth505 wrote:
So you've seen them or were told about the "too many" swingarms and hubs?
Johnny89superbike wrote:
I've seen a number of wheels and swingarms, plus the dealer (mate that works there) told me of the unreliability of the bikes.
Weird, I haven't heard of that in the US other than the brand new ones with the front wheels destroying spokes, that's definitely a shitty issue.
ratonmacias
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ratonmacias 12/9/2015 7:48pm
12/9/2015 7:48pm
f1 cars are lighter than the limit and ballast is added at strategic places to aid handling. the same could happen to mx bikes
BobbyM
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BobbyM 12/9/2015 8:09pm
12/9/2015 8:09pm
Just curious but has full on skunk werx full bore factory bikes ever been raced before? I seem to recall that that has been tried in the past. What happened?
shaffstall721 12/9/2015 8:15pm
12/9/2015 8:15pm
I think its time for a displacement change.

380cc MX1
210cc MX2

or something like that to slow the 250cc four strokes down.

A lot of the times they are faster than the 450 guys...

Also a lot safer transition for the kids...
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/9/2015 8:43pm
12/9/2015 8:43pm
seth505 wrote:
So you've seen them or were told about the "too many" swingarms and hubs?
Johnny89superbike wrote:
I've seen a number of wheels and swingarms, plus the dealer (mate that works there) told me of the unreliability of the bikes.
seth505 wrote:
Weird, I haven't heard of that in the US other than the brand new ones with the front wheels destroying spokes, that's definitely a shitty issue.
Last Friday...at Glen Helen doing my best Kurt Caselli impression...(thanks Kurt!)...

For about 3 hours.

I tried with all my might and even chased Geoff Aaron down just to have him roost my ass on the mountain... I bottomed my Husky FE-S out on the Finishline jump...at the bottom of the mountain...even bottomed out on the top of Talladega...for waaaay too many laps to count...

Oh, did I MENTION THE THOUSANDS OF MILES IN BAJA...?

How about the time Tim Badour sailed ALL the Huge jumps on the big track at Pala...?

Yup. All on my STOCK Husky complete with production std KTM swing arm.

So...I'm jus' sayin'...

Btw, in my absence or when I'm "away": I'll concur with anything Seth has to say & he can answer in my place.

Manny

Orange or Green at the MX races. White with Blue & Yellow in the Dez. Because, I can.
Suck it.
mark_swart
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mark_swart 12/9/2015 9:50pm
12/9/2015 9:50pm Edited Date/Time 12/9/2015 9:51pm
How about this... the weight limit each season is determined by the weight of the lightest homologated production bike for that model year. That way innovation is still rewarded. If a manufacturer can mass produce a reliable production bike below the limit, it seems weird to keep the same weight limits year after year.

Ultimately I have to believe that a lighter bike is a safer bike (provided that reliability is not compromised). I believe the heavier a bike is, the more leverage/inertia it has to throw a rider off with more force, most likely causing greater injuries.
mark_swart
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mark_swart 12/9/2015 10:08pm
12/9/2015 10:08pm
And 10 minutes after I posted this, I saw the MXA blurb on the 2016.5 KTM FEs... dropping another FOUR pounds on the 450!
GeorgiePorgie 12/9/2015 10:17pm
12/9/2015 10:17pm
Ktm is the lightest and it's got a damn battery. Those japs better put their stuff on a diet, bro.
BobbyM
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BobbyM 12/10/2015 5:28am
12/10/2015 5:28am
Johnny89superbike wrote:
I've seen a number of wheels and swingarms, plus the dealer (mate that works there) told me of the unreliability of the bikes.
seth505 wrote:
Weird, I haven't heard of that in the US other than the brand new ones with the front wheels destroying spokes, that's definitely a shitty issue.
TeamGreen wrote:
Last Friday...at Glen Helen doing my best Kurt Caselli impression...(thanks Kurt!)... For about 3 hours. I tried with all my might and even chased Geoff Aaron...
Last Friday...at Glen Helen doing my best Kurt Caselli impression...(thanks Kurt!)...

For about 3 hours.

I tried with all my might and even chased Geoff Aaron down just to have him roost my ass on the mountain... I bottomed my Husky FE-S out on the Finishline jump...at the bottom of the mountain...even bottomed out on the top of Talladega...for waaaay too many laps to count...

Oh, did I MENTION THE THOUSANDS OF MILES IN BAJA...?

How about the time Tim Badour sailed ALL the Huge jumps on the big track at Pala...?

Yup. All on my STOCK Husky complete with production std KTM swing arm.

So...I'm jus' sayin'...

Btw, in my absence or when I'm "away": I'll concur with anything Seth has to say & he can answer in my place.

Manny

Orange or Green at the MX races. White with Blue & Yellow in the Dez. Because, I can.
Suck it.
Shit Manny.. You only weigh 120 lbs.

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