David Pingree on air forks

j368
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Tulsa, OK, USA
Edited Date/Time 11/20/2015 10:20am
He's not holding back anymore. What do you guys think about the air fork vs spring fork debate?
http://racerxonline.com/2015/11/13/ask-ping
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Motofinne
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11/14/2015 3:37am
I have never had a bike with air forks but what i'v heard is that the WP AER 48 is better than the Showa and KYB air forks, my 2016 KTM 450 will arrive in about 2 months and it will have the AER 48 forks.
Aaryn234
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South Australia, SA, AU
Fantasy
11/14/2015 3:54am
Have them on my 15 RM-Z

The biggest pain in the arse is checking the pressure every time you go out to ride and I have found that they always need to be re-checked and adjusted after the first ride of the day.

As for the feel it all comes down to personal preference. They are certainly not my favorite fork out of the box that I have had on any of my bikes over the years, but not the worst! Feel a lot better than my 09 Honda forks did!

In stock form found them fine on the bigger bumps, large rouned braking bumps or hitting sand whoops or the likes, but always felt horrible on the small square edge shitty stuff.

Have had my local suspension guy do a little work with me and have them feeling a lot better.

I did run my 14 RM-Z250 back to back with the 15 450, running the Single Fuction spring fork against the SFF Air fork both in stock form and the SFF Spring fork felt so good! Would have loved to take the forks out of the 14 250F and put them in the 15 450.

I just don't see them being the best way to go long term for the average punter who at the end of the day are the people who buy these bikes and also what are they going to be like long term? How hard is it going to be to sell a second hand bike with airforks, is joe average who will never buy a new bike be arsed to work out how to use airforks?

There has to be a reason why they (The manufactures) have not gone down the same path for the Enduro / Off-road market, maybe they already know that the average rider out there does not to have to put up with pissing around with fork pressures before they head out for a ride.
MX690
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11/14/2015 4:07am Edited Date/Time 11/14/2015 4:08am
I have heard nothing but bad things about air forks, it's almost like you need a suspension tech to come riding with you just to set your forks up before you go out. Race tech make a kit that turn your air forks back to springs so that says a lot right there. I think the manufacturers have gotten to clever for their own good and complicated something that worked and wasn't that complicated in the first place.
SwapperMX
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11/14/2015 4:32am
I am extremely glad that he came out and voiced his true opinion !! I share his sentiment. Air Forks suck !! Hopefully history repeats itself, and they disappear just like they did 30 years ago.

The Shop

11/14/2015 5:28am
IMHO my FC revalved 2014 Honda forks are pretty darn good..could definitely be better though..My biggest complaint is also sort of a compliment too, is that I can either make them super plush with harsh bottoming, or I can make them not bottom on practicly anything but feel harsh on smaller stuff.
I think this has been suspension tuning's biggest challenge with spring forks also.
As of rite now I have a pretty decent compromise. I tend to run them a little firmer cause I hate the way they dive when set up too plush.. But with those couple exceptions... I like em.

cheers_22
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11/14/2015 5:59am
Well said, Ping!
11/14/2015 7:13am Edited Date/Time 11/14/2015 7:20am
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the lack of willingness to question ones own beliefs. His clear denial of evolution is saddening. Each to their own I guess,

Back on topic though. Could be interesting to have a poll on the whole air vs spring debate. I guess logistically it would be too complicated to set one up that is fair. There are just too many factors affecting peoples opinions.


mmcmx
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Perafita, Catalunya, PE
11/14/2015 7:27am
BikeBefok wrote:
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the...
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the lack of willingness to question ones own beliefs. His clear denial of evolution is saddening. Each to their own I guess,

Back on topic though. Could be interesting to have a poll on the whole air vs spring debate. I guess logistically it would be too complicated to set one up that is fair. There are just too many factors affecting peoples opinions.


Dude, I've had an open mind since 2013. They suck. I'll buy a set of WP CV and maybe by 2021 they'll have them dialed in. I wont be their lab rat anymore that's for sure.
11/14/2015 7:46am
mmcmx wrote:
Dude, I've had an open mind since 2013. They suck. I'll buy a set of WP CV and maybe by 2021 they'll have them dialed in...
Dude, I've had an open mind since 2013. They suck. I'll buy a set of WP CV and maybe by 2021 they'll have them dialed in. I wont be their lab rat anymore that's for sure.
Well I'm quite enjoying my TAC forks off of the kx. I haven't ever ridden a bike with CV forks though. What version of air fork do you have and what do you hate about them?
IceMan446
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Sacramento, CA, USA
11/14/2015 8:42am
Motofinne wrote:
I have never had a bike with air forks but what i'v heard is that the WP AER 48 is better than the Showa and KYB...
I have never had a bike with air forks but what i'v heard is that the WP AER 48 is better than the Showa and KYB air forks, my 2016 KTM 450 will arrive in about 2 months and it will have the AER 48 forks.
If you get the A-kit stuff. But expect to spend some coin.

Here is what Keefer's said.

WP overview from Keefer
IceMan446
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11/14/2015 8:47am
BikeBefok wrote:
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the...
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the lack of willingness to question ones own beliefs. His clear denial of evolution is saddening. Each to their own I guess,

Back on topic though. Could be interesting to have a poll on the whole air vs spring debate. I guess logistically it would be too complicated to set one up that is fair. There are just too many factors affecting peoples opinions.


Saddening???

How so?

Dude has an opinion, just like you, and he doesn't like them. A LOT of other guys would agree with Pingree.

There is a reason factory guys are going from air to spring forks. Are they also in denial? Or do they just know what works and what doesn't?

bsharkey
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11/14/2015 9:22am
at least he came out and said it. what would other riders say if they could with no fear of backlash
steve_97060
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Florence, AZ, USA
11/14/2015 9:39am
BikeBefok wrote:
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the...
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the lack of willingness to question ones own beliefs. His clear denial of evolution is saddening. Each to their own I guess,

Back on topic though. Could be interesting to have a poll on the whole air vs spring debate. I guess logistically it would be too complicated to set one up that is fair. There are just too many factors affecting peoples opinions.


whew, good thing you don't suffer from this "common" problem..
lumpy790
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York, SC, USA
11/14/2015 9:58am
had air forks on my 1975 125 Honda
moto0852
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Draper, UT, USA
11/14/2015 10:17am
BikeBefok wrote:
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the...
Ha! I would have been embarrassed to have had my name associated with his 'column' responses. Pingree demonstrates a common problem I believe people have... the lack of willingness to question ones own beliefs. His clear denial of evolution is saddening. Each to their own I guess,

Back on topic though. Could be interesting to have a poll on the whole air vs spring debate. I guess logistically it would be too complicated to set one up that is fair. There are just too many factors affecting peoples opinions.


whew, good thing you don't suffer from this "common" problem..
You appear to be confusing evolution with progress. Look, at this point it's gone beyond opinion. Air forks are "universally" viewed as not being as good.
Motofinne
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11/14/2015 10:50am
Motofinne wrote:
I have never had a bike with air forks but what i'v heard is that the WP AER 48 is better than the Showa and KYB...
I have never had a bike with air forks but what i'v heard is that the WP AER 48 is better than the Showa and KYB air forks, my 2016 KTM 450 will arrive in about 2 months and it will have the AER 48 forks.
IceMan446 wrote:
If you get the A-kit stuff. But expect to spend some coin.

Here is what Keefer's said.

WP overview from Keefer
WP AER 48 forks come stock on EU KTMs.
TeamGreen
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Thru-out, CA, USA
11/14/2015 11:02am
I -HATED- my KYB Airs (13-14 KX450F) & was going to slap my "Made for Me" Enzo fat-lugged KYB spring forks with all the cool coatings and parts.

The engineer at ProCircuit, Patrick Doran, said..."Hey, do me a favor? Try our re-valve and internals & caps on your Airs -before- you swap them out and let me know what you think. Ok?"

I did. They are better than my springers. No shit.

Now, there's a legitimate bitch by those that say, "WTF, Dude! How much money was that?" And that's a legitimate bitch. The caps, mid-valves and revalve-service can cost a lot.

But, they can work. They do work.

If Pinger had a set built, for him, by Bones? He'd change his tune.

However, the pont to be made is this: if the manufacturers want us to like air-forks, they need to sell a set that's got settings that DON'T SUCK!
Bret
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Mission Viejo, CA, USA
11/14/2015 11:23am
I like air forks just fine. What I witness is too many people trying to change the air pressure to tune them instead of adjusting the clickers.
Carlos Z
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Phoenix, AZ, USA
11/14/2015 12:05pm
MXA is very pro-spring but in their current issue they seemed pretty happy with the 16 KX 450 forks.
11/14/2015 12:28pm
TeamGreen wrote:
I -HATED- my KYB Airs (13-14 KX450F) & was going to slap my "Made for Me" Enzo fat-lugged KYB spring forks with all the cool coatings...
I -HATED- my KYB Airs (13-14 KX450F) & was going to slap my "Made for Me" Enzo fat-lugged KYB spring forks with all the cool coatings and parts.

The engineer at ProCircuit, Patrick Doran, said..."Hey, do me a favor? Try our re-valve and internals & caps on your Airs -before- you swap them out and let me know what you think. Ok?"

I did. They are better than my springers. No shit.

Now, there's a legitimate bitch by those that say, "WTF, Dude! How much money was that?" And that's a legitimate bitch. The caps, mid-valves and revalve-service can cost a lot.

But, they can work. They do work.

If Pinger had a set built, for him, by Bones? He'd change his tune.

However, the pont to be made is this: if the manufacturers want us to like air-forks, they need to sell a set that's got settings that DON'T SUCK!
My guess would be that Ping has likely tried a set of fully setup PC airforks. The last I had seen he still has a good relationship there from his racing days and runs them on his personal bikes. They just aren't for some riders who want a specific feel. Remember all the different things Ping has ridden in his day, he knows what good is, and he knows what he wants at this point. It doesn't mean air forks or the PC setup isn't good or doesn't work, it just means it isn't the feel that he likes... in this case doesn't even sound like in the ball park.

From my experiences dealing with our riders, air forks can definitely be made to work for many riders. I do have a handful (not a big handful) in fact that LOVE the airfork. I have a lot who say the air and spring fork are comparable. And I also have a couple handfuls who won't even touch an airfork or test with one.

One interesting thing my boss mentioned to me, "How often do you hear someone say, 'gee I sure wish I had some airforks'? And how often do you hear someone say, 'I just wish I had spring forks!'"

Yes, the 2nd one is heard often which is the reason they spent the time and resources to develop our Spring Conversion System. You wouldn't believe the number of customers that would call the shop asking if we had a source for older spring forks to replace their air ones. There are two reasons this kit sells...1) They miss the spring fork feel or 2) They simply don't want to deal with the headache of checking pressures.

With all that said, if you haven't ridden a set of well setup airforks, it's hard to say whether you will or won't like them.

IceMan446
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11/14/2015 12:38pm
Motofinne wrote:
WP AER 48 forks come stock on EU KTMs.
Sorry, should have looked at where you were posting from.

Uncle Tony
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11/14/2015 12:52pm
lumpy790 wrote:
had air forks on my 1975 125 Honda
Had them on my 74 YZ125 with leak proof fork seals, them Yamaha came out with them in 76, that lasted a year
j368
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11/14/2015 1:01pm
TeamGreen wrote:
I -HATED- my KYB Airs (13-14 KX450F) & was going to slap my "Made for Me" Enzo fat-lugged KYB spring forks with all the cool coatings...
I -HATED- my KYB Airs (13-14 KX450F) & was going to slap my "Made for Me" Enzo fat-lugged KYB spring forks with all the cool coatings and parts.

The engineer at ProCircuit, Patrick Doran, said..."Hey, do me a favor? Try our re-valve and internals & caps on your Airs -before- you swap them out and let me know what you think. Ok?"

I did. They are better than my springers. No shit.

Now, there's a legitimate bitch by those that say, "WTF, Dude! How much money was that?" And that's a legitimate bitch. The caps, mid-valves and revalve-service can cost a lot.

But, they can work. They do work.

If Pinger had a set built, for him, by Bones? He'd change his tune.

However, the pont to be made is this: if the manufacturers want us to like air-forks, they need to sell a set that's got settings that DON'T SUCK!
My guess would be that Ping has likely tried a set of fully setup PC airforks. The last I had seen he still has a good...
My guess would be that Ping has likely tried a set of fully setup PC airforks. The last I had seen he still has a good relationship there from his racing days and runs them on his personal bikes. They just aren't for some riders who want a specific feel. Remember all the different things Ping has ridden in his day, he knows what good is, and he knows what he wants at this point. It doesn't mean air forks or the PC setup isn't good or doesn't work, it just means it isn't the feel that he likes... in this case doesn't even sound like in the ball park.

From my experiences dealing with our riders, air forks can definitely be made to work for many riders. I do have a handful (not a big handful) in fact that LOVE the airfork. I have a lot who say the air and spring fork are comparable. And I also have a couple handfuls who won't even touch an airfork or test with one.

One interesting thing my boss mentioned to me, "How often do you hear someone say, 'gee I sure wish I had some airforks'? And how often do you hear someone say, 'I just wish I had spring forks!'"

Yes, the 2nd one is heard often which is the reason they spent the time and resources to develop our Spring Conversion System. You wouldn't believe the number of customers that would call the shop asking if we had a source for older spring forks to replace their air ones. There are two reasons this kit sells...1) They miss the spring fork feel or 2) They simply don't want to deal with the headache of checking pressures.

With all that said, if you haven't ridden a set of well setup airforks, it's hard to say whether you will or won't like them.

In your opinion, how good is the KYB Factory Kit once it's set up for the rider? Is it a lot better than a spring fork that's properly set up for the rider?
keith101
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AU
11/14/2015 3:09pm
Reading Ping's comments and some of the comments here is downright comical.

Funny thing: In virtually all 2016 shootouts, including Vital's, the KX air forked equipped bike finished ahead of KTM. Even MXA likes Honda and Kawi air forks.

Too funny.
kiwifan
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11/14/2015 3:53pm
keith101 wrote:
Reading Ping's comments and some of the comments here is downright comical. Funny thing: In virtually all 2016 shootouts, including Vital's, the KX air forked equipped...
Reading Ping's comments and some of the comments here is downright comical.

Funny thing: In virtually all 2016 shootouts, including Vital's, the KX air forked equipped bike finished ahead of KTM. Even MXA likes Honda and Kawi air forks.

Too funny.
I had FC fetted forks on my 15 CRF and they were awesome, I have a 16 KXF and just got them back from FC....again very happy with them. Yes air forks require more setting up and tuning to the track and conditions thats what you get with technological progress, more options, more chances of getting wrong if you dont get how to set them up properly/tune them for each track.
kiwifan
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11/14/2015 3:57pm
Funny thing about Ping's comments about Yamaha forks, if they go air in 2017 then he's going to be even more unhappy
FLmxer
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Fantasy
11/14/2015 4:10pm
I just got back on springs for my 15 Honda. I had the air forks set up about as good as possible and they are pretty good but I like to try everything for fun and I just like the springs much better. Even just pushing on them off the bike feels so different to me.
11/14/2015 4:54pm
I haven't changed a thing on the forks on my 16 kx450, I think they work great for me at 175# and those settings.
I had a 15 crf250, those were ok, but not as good as kawi's this year.
Deetsmx
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Visalia, CA, USA
11/14/2015 5:50pm
I thought my air forks were set up pretty good and was happy with them. Then I rode a kx with spring forks swapped onto them.
NeedMoto
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11/14/2015 6:24pm
FLmxer wrote:
I just got back on springs for my 15 Honda. I had the air forks set up about as good as possible and they are pretty...
I just got back on springs for my 15 Honda. I had the air forks set up about as good as possible and they are pretty good but I like to try everything for fun and I just like the springs much better. Even just pushing on them off the bike feels so different to me.
This^^^ I just put some 2014 CRF 250 spring forks, on my CRF 450, and tried them today. Freaking fantastic feel!
I was just tired of checking air pressure before each moto. The air forks actually worked good. I'm currently happy, although that changes day too day Angry

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