6D Hype?

DrSweden
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DrSweden 3/30/2015 11:58am
3/30/2015 11:58am
brocsdad wrote:
Several riders have broken their backs where the back of the leatt came down on the spine resulting in paralysis. I never like the design and...
Several riders have broken their backs where the back of the leatt came down on the spine resulting in paralysis. I never like the design and if you notice the new design now rides on the back muscles and not the spine.
Please be aware of what you are promoting. First off, the Leatt newer claimed they will protect beneath the cervical area, if you get that, what do you think would happen with that force, if the Leatt wouldn't lead it away from the cervical area (that's the purpose)? Those upper vertebras are the most fragile ones, and the Leatt carbon piece on the spine is build to brake off with less force than it takes to brake a human spine, as in mid and lower spine. So what evidence is there that they would be without spine or cervical injury without the Leatt? If you read about the Leatt, the amazing work they put in, as in actual research, maybe you would reconsider.

In the end I have no evidence, nor can I say I know the the truth, but I read all they said, listen to all the interviews, saw the vids and have so far not heard about a single cervical injury with the Leatt (has to be one since it's not bullet proof), which is for me the deadliest kind, and most severe since the higher you go, the more nerve systems get shut down (picture Christopher reeve vs someone being able to move his arms).

In short, blaming the Leatt is most likely like blaming a helmet for giving people concussions.
brocsdad
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brocsdad 3/30/2015 12:24pm
3/30/2015 12:24pm
When the Leatt first came out I was helping promote the neck brace waaay before Kevin Windham and others starting endorsing it. My son wore one during his 50/65 days.

With that said the middle piece did not break away on the riders I mentioned and broke their back in that exact spot. Now without the brace would they have another type of injury? Maybe who knows? But none of the braces currently on the market has the piece riding directly on the spine. Atlas was the first to have the pads ride on the shoulders and everyone has followed.

Now if that area was not a concern why did Leatt change the design?

ridge
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ridge 3/30/2015 1:22pm
3/30/2015 1:22pm
brocsdad wrote:
When the Leatt first came out I was helping promote the neck brace waaay before Kevin Windham and others starting endorsing it. My son wore one...
When the Leatt first came out I was helping promote the neck brace waaay before Kevin Windham and others starting endorsing it. My son wore one during his 50/65 days.

With that said the middle piece did not break away on the riders I mentioned and broke their back in that exact spot. Now without the brace would they have another type of injury? Maybe who knows? But none of the braces currently on the market has the piece riding directly on the spine. Atlas was the first to have the pads ride on the shoulders and everyone has followed.

Now if that area was not a concern why did Leatt change the design?

I agree with your neck brace statement...I'm living with a wheelchair bound 18 year old who "kinked" his spine at the exact point the Leatt ended. Like you said though, who knows what would've happened without the brace. I don't wear one...I've got a short neck. Lol

Who did you wrench for?
731chopper
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731chopper 3/30/2015 1:28pm
3/30/2015 1:28pm
brocsdad wrote:
When the Leatt first came out I was helping promote the neck brace waaay before Kevin Windham and others starting endorsing it. My son wore one...
When the Leatt first came out I was helping promote the neck brace waaay before Kevin Windham and others starting endorsing it. My son wore one during his 50/65 days.

With that said the middle piece did not break away on the riders I mentioned and broke their back in that exact spot. Now without the brace would they have another type of injury? Maybe who knows? But none of the braces currently on the market has the piece riding directly on the spine. Atlas was the first to have the pads ride on the shoulders and everyone has followed.

Now if that area was not a concern why did Leatt change the design?

In theory it makes sense that it would be better to spread that load to the shoulder blades like the atlas does but what evidence do you have that the leatt design ever caused the injuries you mentioned? I don't have a dog in the fight here and I'm seriously interested to know if you do, in fact, have proof and not just circumstantial evidence.

The Zach Bell crash was a big selling point for 6D in my eyes. I saw that in person and I know I wasn't the only one there who thought that was fatal at the time.

We need third party independent studies done on these different helmet designs.

The Shop

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KlootZak
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KlootZak 3/30/2015 1:39pm
3/30/2015 1:39pm
newmann wrote:
Not knocking you, but who exactly are you to state as fact that there are design flaws in either the Leatt or the 6D? Opinions are...
Not knocking you, but who exactly are you to state as fact that there are design flaws in either the Leatt or the 6D?

Opinions are one thing, but you seem to believe you speak facts here.
x2

It will probably turn down like the brace. Some are naysayers from the beginning with a lot of bias, others see a guy crashing and hurting himself with new technology and therefore it is shit and other people understand the science / concept of the new technology and go for it ...
brocsdad
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brocsdad 3/30/2015 1:57pm
3/30/2015 1:57pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2015 2:01pm
brocsdad wrote:
When the Leatt first came out I was helping promote the neck brace waaay before Kevin Windham and others starting endorsing it. My son wore one...
When the Leatt first came out I was helping promote the neck brace waaay before Kevin Windham and others starting endorsing it. My son wore one during his 50/65 days.

With that said the middle piece did not break away on the riders I mentioned and broke their back in that exact spot. Now without the brace would they have another type of injury? Maybe who knows? But none of the braces currently on the market has the piece riding directly on the spine. Atlas was the first to have the pads ride on the shoulders and everyone has followed.

Now if that area was not a concern why did Leatt change the design?

ridge wrote:
I agree with your neck brace statement...I'm living with a wheelchair bound 18 year old who "kinked" his spine at the exact point the Leatt ended...
I agree with your neck brace statement...I'm living with a wheelchair bound 18 year old who "kinked" his spine at the exact point the Leatt ended. Like you said though, who knows what would've happened without the brace. I don't wear one...I've got a short neck. Lol

Who did you wrench for?
I wrenched for Steve Childress.

4 time amateur champ and factory Suzuki rider. He beat Emig and Bradshaw for the A class title at Lorettas. He is now a dentist.

http://racerxonline.com/2014/09/19/where-are-they-now-stevie-childress

brocsdad
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brocsdad 3/30/2015 1:59pm
3/30/2015 1:59pm
It snapped their back right where the Leatt ended on the spine.

Motodave15
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Motodave15 3/30/2015 2:00pm
3/30/2015 2:00pm


No Concussion (6D)....prove otherwise Op!

how do we know, if the kid got a small concussion in the just1 helmet and aggravated it in the 6d? too many variables to state your claim.
MX-Files
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MX-Files 3/30/2015 2:35pm
3/30/2015 2:35pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2015 2:36pm
BobPA wrote:
By getting knocked out cold? I am still not a believer in the 6D technology. Not to mention the price. I know someone will argue that...
By getting knocked out cold?

I am still not a believer in the 6D technology. Not to mention the price. I know someone will argue that you cannot put a price on safety, but $700 for some chinese rubber and plastic is just ludacris.

KTMShane699 wrote:
Like anything else, you're paying for more than the true manufacturing costs. There's R&D costs in there, prototypes, tooling, overhead, etc. It's a long list of...
Like anything else, you're paying for more than the true manufacturing costs. There's R&D costs in there, prototypes, tooling, overhead, etc. It's a long list of expenses. I'd say that to bring a new helmet to market with any form of new technology and keeping it in line with the top tier of helmets is actually doing a pretty good job.

Shane
BobPA wrote:
I am aware of all the R&D cost and such. But for all we know some guy created the helmet in AutoCAD, had a Chinese manufacturer...
I am aware of all the R&D cost and such. But for all we know some guy created the helmet in AutoCAD, had a Chinese manufacturer make him a few prototypes, he was satisfied how the helmet performed, and then started producing them. I would be surprised if the finished product had a total cost of production over $20. We have no idea how much money was invested in the initial design and testing phase. I know the saying usually applies that you get what you pay for, but in this instance I believe that to not be the case.
BobPA,

You are not even close to "for all we know some guy created...blah, blah, blah". (You don't know).

I personally saw the 6D development of Bob Weber and his engineer, Robert Reisinger go from hand carved samples in a garage to CAD drawings and many, many prototype samples that were tested over and over again in the best independent lab in the US where everyone gets their helmets tested. I know because we produced their development video and were involved with a lot of it. The process took several years to get it right and make a helmet that did the job no one else had taken the time or expense to figure out. They did.

The result is a helmet that in micro-seconds, slows your brain sloshing inside your skull and tearing the threads of membranes holding inside (this causes concussions). The numbers from the testing don't lie. I watched the tests and data come it.

You all just need to watch Zach Bell's crash or Eli Tomac's through the whoops in Oakland a few weeks before.

All head plants are not the same so you cannot compare. And a concussion from a crash wearing a 6D could be (again, could be) some one eating from a straw the rest of his life or worse wearing another brand.

I don't know what you think "saving" $100, $200, or $300 is worth for your head...but in the words of Dirty Harry..."Do you feel lucky? Well do you punk". Smile (See smiley face)
brocsdad
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brocsdad 3/30/2015 2:41pm
3/30/2015 2:41pm
Bell is claiming their helmet is superior to the 6D.

So should we all run out and buy the Bell?
hvaughn88
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hvaughn88 3/30/2015 2:43pm
3/30/2015 2:43pm
brocsdad wrote:
Bell is claiming their helmet is superior to the 6D.

So should we all run out and buy the Bell?
I think you should go out and buy the one you think is the best
#991
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#991 3/30/2015 2:51pm
3/30/2015 2:51pm
rangot wrote:
Zach Bell sold me on the 6D with his rookie season crash.
+1 Blink
dean122
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dean122 3/30/2015 2:52pm
3/30/2015 2:52pm
brocsdad wrote:
I have been around the sport for many years as a racer and a mechanic for top 10 national rider in 90’s while in college. I’m...
I have been around the sport for many years as a racer and a mechanic for top 10 national rider in 90’s while in college. I’m not a newbie to the sport and I know the risks. I’m just stating what I have observed at the track. Riders are still suffering concussions from relatively slow crashes and the majority of the local riders on the 6D bandwagon are now wearing another brand. Now you have Bell and Fox with their new helmets and they are all of a sudden the rage. They “may” be better but when Bell downs the 6D but all of a sudden develops a helmet that uses the same technology you have to wonder if it’s solely marketing or truly a better helmet?

Everyone references Zach Bell’s crash but if I’m not mistaking Will Hahn crashed in a 6D last year and cracked his skull. But as stated before it all depends on how you hit etc. since no 2 crashes are the same.

Time will tell I guess if the helmet is truly better.
Just to clarify on Will Hahns crash, he wasn't wearing a 6D, he was wearing a Shoei.
mjskier
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mjskier 3/30/2015 3:12pm
3/30/2015 3:12pm
brocsdad wrote:
It snapped their back right where the Leatt ended on the spine.

Compression or extension fracture?
SLO1667
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SLO1667 3/30/2015 3:15pm
3/30/2015 3:15pm
BobPA wrote:
By getting knocked out cold? I am still not a believer in the 6D technology. Not to mention the price. I know someone will argue that...
By getting knocked out cold?

I am still not a believer in the 6D technology. Not to mention the price. I know someone will argue that you cannot put a price on safety, but $700 for some chinese rubber and plastic is just ludacris.

KTMShane699 wrote:
Like anything else, you're paying for more than the true manufacturing costs. There's R&D costs in there, prototypes, tooling, overhead, etc. It's a long list of...
Like anything else, you're paying for more than the true manufacturing costs. There's R&D costs in there, prototypes, tooling, overhead, etc. It's a long list of expenses. I'd say that to bring a new helmet to market with any form of new technology and keeping it in line with the top tier of helmets is actually doing a pretty good job.

Shane
BobPA wrote:
I am aware of all the R&D cost and such. But for all we know some guy created the helmet in AutoCAD, had a Chinese manufacturer...
I am aware of all the R&D cost and such. But for all we know some guy created the helmet in AutoCAD, had a Chinese manufacturer make him a few prototypes, he was satisfied how the helmet performed, and then started producing them. I would be surprised if the finished product had a total cost of production over $20. We have no idea how much money was invested in the initial design and testing phase. I know the saying usually applies that you get what you pay for, but in this instance I believe that to not be the case.
you should probably just give up now and do some simple research, but I guess it's the path of least resistance for you to be an uninformed consumer. You don't have to like it, but at least they have some supporting data to back up their products, which you rarely see.

Let me try to help the others.







GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 3/30/2015 3:18pm
3/30/2015 3:18pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2015 3:19pm
brocsdad wrote:
Bell is claiming their helmet is superior to the 6D.

So should we all run out and buy the Bell?
Man, I have no problem with someone bringing up a subject and inviting some critical thought and evaluation. But you seem like you have no idea what you are talking about. Are you somehow involved in Just 1 or something? I can't figure out what you are saying here. The technology in the Bell and 6d are not the same.
GuyB
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GuyB 3/30/2015 3:19pm
3/30/2015 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2015 3:20pm
There's a lot of anecdotal nonsense in here. Then there's the MX Files post from Todd.
Jakes Dad
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Jakes Dad 3/30/2015 5:57pm
3/30/2015 5:57pm
brocsdad wrote:
I applaud 6D for trying something new just like Leatt did with the brace. The Leatt brace had a bad design with the back of the...
I applaud 6D for trying something new just like Leatt did with the brace. The Leatt brace had a bad design with the back of the brace riding on the spinal column (another thread). Problem is there’s all this data saying the helmet is safer but from what I’ve seen that is not the case. Several local riders have crashed and all suffered concussions. This past week a lites rider trying to make the main in St. Louis crashed which resulted in being knocked out and throwing up in his new 6D Helmet. The kid was wearing a JUST1 and had 2 major crashes with no head injuries earlier in the season. Funny thing the Arai rep was badmouthing the JUST1 and the kid goes out and buys a 6D.

The problem is that some of the new technology stuff like the shock absorption systems in helmets actually adds weight and annular space. What are the two biggest factors in concussions besides the hit itself...? Annular space and weight! Think of a pendulum... as the pendulum swings, the heavier the weight on the end = harder that pendulum can swing. So you would think a heavier design would actually add to the concussion problem rather than help it. Second issue is annular space or gap between the foam and the shell that causes concussions.

A year ago Bell was saying there was absolutely no advantage to the 6D and now they have their own version? One industries uses the MIPS which is a basically what Football helmets have used for years.

Again I feel a lot of this is marketing and if spend $700 on a 6D it’s the last thing you want to hear but I’m not sold on the helmets.
I'm guessing YOU stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.Wink
Sorry couldn't help myself!

I've settled on carbon fiber for my peace of mind and 2nd is comfort for Jake. Tried most all of them and "tested" most all of them. With these standards price does not dictate protection from concussions, with our experience anyway. Thankfully only 2 in 10 years, no swelling or bleeding with either one.

Pit Row

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mx836
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mx836 3/30/2015 5:59pm
3/30/2015 5:59pm
brocsdad wrote:
Bell is claiming their helmet is superior to the 6D.

So should we all run out and buy the Bell?
Buy a Shoei. Proven quality.
swtwtwtw
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swtwtwtw 3/30/2015 6:46pm
3/30/2015 6:46pm
buy a properly fitted helmet, i tell you most riders i have run into this last year wear helmets that are too big for them.
brocsdad
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brocsdad 3/30/2015 6:56pm
3/30/2015 6:56pm
True...Bell is using a different approach or technology to achieve the same result.

Face it MX is a dangerous sport and the reason we have the debates or opinions of others is to somehow convince ourselves we are buying the best protection for ourselves or for our kids.

Anyway Peace out I gotta go prep bikes for practice...
The Rock
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The Rock 3/30/2015 7:00pm
3/30/2015 7:00pm
Brian Swink back in the rolling thunder review Honda of Troy days split his helmet (I think it was at Dallas in 97) in a heat race but came back and qualified for the main.

He and Michael Craig were two absolute animals when it came to crashing and keeping going.
brocsdad
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brocsdad 3/30/2015 7:01pm
3/30/2015 7:01pm
GuyB wrote:
There's a lot of anecdotal nonsense in here. Then there's the MX Files post from Todd.
MX Files?
brocsdad
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brocsdad 3/30/2015 7:04pm
3/30/2015 7:04pm
brocsdad wrote:
I applaud 6D for trying something new just like Leatt did with the brace. The Leatt brace had a bad design with the back of the...
I applaud 6D for trying something new just like Leatt did with the brace. The Leatt brace had a bad design with the back of the brace riding on the spinal column (another thread). Problem is there’s all this data saying the helmet is safer but from what I’ve seen that is not the case. Several local riders have crashed and all suffered concussions. This past week a lites rider trying to make the main in St. Louis crashed which resulted in being knocked out and throwing up in his new 6D Helmet. The kid was wearing a JUST1 and had 2 major crashes with no head injuries earlier in the season. Funny thing the Arai rep was badmouthing the JUST1 and the kid goes out and buys a 6D.

The problem is that some of the new technology stuff like the shock absorption systems in helmets actually adds weight and annular space. What are the two biggest factors in concussions besides the hit itself...? Annular space and weight! Think of a pendulum... as the pendulum swings, the heavier the weight on the end = harder that pendulum can swing. So you would think a heavier design would actually add to the concussion problem rather than help it. Second issue is annular space or gap between the foam and the shell that causes concussions.

A year ago Bell was saying there was absolutely no advantage to the 6D and now they have their own version? One industries uses the MIPS which is a basically what Football helmets have used for years.

Again I feel a lot of this is marketing and if spend $700 on a 6D it’s the last thing you want to hear but I’m not sold on the helmets.
Jakes Dad wrote:
I'm guessing YOU stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.;) Sorry couldn't help myself! I've settled on carbon fiber for my peace of mind and...
I'm guessing YOU stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.Wink
Sorry couldn't help myself!

I've settled on carbon fiber for my peace of mind and 2nd is comfort for Jake. Tried most all of them and "tested" most all of them. With these standards price does not dictate protection from concussions, with our experience anyway. Thankfully only 2 in 10 years, no swelling or bleeding with either one.

Hey Steve,

I was going to give you a call about TDC.
GuyB
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GuyB 3/30/2015 7:05pm
3/30/2015 7:05pm
GuyB wrote:
There's a lot of anecdotal nonsense in here. Then there's the MX Files post from Todd.
brocsdad wrote:
MX Files?
Yeah. Look up. ^^^
brocsdad
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brocsdad 3/30/2015 7:15pm
3/30/2015 7:15pm
GuyB wrote:
There's a lot of anecdotal nonsense in here. Then there's the MX Files post from Todd.
brocsdad wrote:
MX Files?
GuyB wrote:
Yeah. Look up. ^^^
racerx...ok
rangot
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rangot 3/31/2015 12:47am
3/31/2015 12:47am
mx836 wrote:
Buy a Shoei. Proven quality.
I also have two Shoei. But i prefer to ride with the 6D. Right or wrong, i "feel" safer, and that's all that matters to me.
PalerBlue
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PalerBlue 3/31/2015 5:04am
3/31/2015 5:04am
newmann wrote:
Not knocking you, but who exactly are you to state as fact that there are design flaws in either the Leatt or the 6D? Opinions are...
Not knocking you, but who exactly are you to state as fact that there are design flaws in either the Leatt or the 6D?

Opinions are one thing, but you seem to believe you speak facts here.
Don't normally agree with too much you post (at least in the Non-moto) but here at least you're right on the money.

Concussions are lessened by the helmet dissipating kinetic energy. Sadly none of the manufacturers publish the stats for this so it's hard to grade them (maybe that's why they don't). What I am pretty much certain about is that stiff shells for penetration resistance are mainly irrelevant for motocross and are generally the worst at dissipating energy.

As for why did Leatt change their design? Probably to overcome the uninformed gossip and speculation surrounding the old one.
steveada
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steveada 3/31/2015 7:53am
3/31/2015 7:53am
Why do people keep posting saying their is no research backing Leatt's and 6D's claims, when there actually is a lot data out there supporting them? Then right after they say that, they give some anecdote about a friend who had this happen or that happen when wearing this gear, so they won't use it. Take the "evidence" that the leatt breaks the back right at the bottom of the back support. Does anybody know the most common fracture to the thoracic spine? If you guess T4-T5 you would be correct. Where does the Leatt back support end? T4-T5. It is a matter of the biomechanics of the human body, not the brace, causing those fractures. Just as an aside, where did anti-Leatt rider Ryan Hughes break his back? T4-T5. In any event, where is the evidence that the neck braces or 6D helmet are worse than not wearing a brace or wearing another brand of helmet? Wear what you want, but take the time to look at the data before you say there is no data out there.

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