(*)Vital 2 Stroke Community ain't helping the cause...

Steve125
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1410
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11/24/2010
Location
USA
3/20/2015 10:29am
Maybe we just don't want the current Yamaha or KTM.. I'm not spending $6500 on a 10 year old design, and the last KTMs I had were the most unreliable bikes I ever had. I hate the WP suspension too.
Build a piston port full reed CR, or a New RM and I'd be all over it.
I've been looking for a good semi fresh 06-08 RM250 within 400 miles of me for 6 months. Nothing nice stays available on CL for more than a few days.
TeamGreen
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37228
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Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
3/20/2015 10:30am
TeamGreen wrote:
And, that's fine; but, yours is the reality of the 2-Stroke crowd "en masse" and it flies in he face of the claims made by the...
And, that's fine; but, yours is the reality of the 2-Stroke crowd "en masse" and it flies in he face of the claims made by the crowd when they're arguing about he issue of how & why 2 strokes got left behind.

Others have made the point about the KTM 2T "off-road" bikes...and. it's true: They're are A LOT of them!

Note: 2T Models that're homologated for 2015, as I understand it, are just "barely" making it in by the number. Husky knows they could have sold quite a bit more; but, didn't have the capacity to get them done on time...so...to be fair...

So, There's always that!

Btw, the guy that runs Husky, in Europe, you know...The Company? He's very Moto and he's been known to walk out on a GNCC course and "take it all in". Saw him in Florida during Daytona Bike Week...the dude is all about the bikes...from MX to Enduro to Desert...From Dual-Sport to Adventure...
seth505 wrote:
You're a smart dude and obviously way more in the know than the average person here...You don't really think current sales numbers have anything to do...
You're a smart dude and obviously way more in the know than the average person here...You don't really think current sales numbers have anything to do with "how and why the 2 strokes got left behind" do you?

Darryl :p
When the 4-Strokes came out...we all ran to them and left the other bikes in the dust. We did that.

Yes, there were other driving forces...rules...OEM's seeing a potential to sell bikes that the other guys didn't have (Remember Yamaha's lead for...what...4 models years?)

When Honda came out with w/ the 450R...2002? It went NUTS!

Then Zook.

Then Kawasaki.

During all this, KTM goes and buys Husaberg: Instant 4T Hot-Rod. Just add Orange (Kinda throws water all over the Husky is a KTM thing!)

Remember?

It really is and was market driven.

No Boogeyman.

We did this.

You notice that I've got No Bitch with any one person in particular?

It's US.

We can change this.

Will we?
TeamGreen
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37228
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Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
3/20/2015 10:31am
cslacker wrote:
Yes because only those with massive amounts of disposable income are allowed to have an opinion.
TailSoHard wrote:
Everyone is "allowed" to have an opinion, but the "opinion" of someone buying a bike will carry more weight than someone who is simply saying what...
Everyone is "allowed" to have an opinion, but the "opinion" of someone buying a bike will carry more weight than someone who is simply saying what they want on a forum.
cslacker wrote:
My response was meant to be more sarcastic than serious... I'm just waiting for a bike that motivates me to separate with my money. That bike...
My response was meant to be more sarcastic than serious... I'm just waiting for a bike that motivates me to separate with my money. That bike currently doesn't exist.
I totally agree.
Motofinne
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11530
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Location
FI
3/20/2015 10:31am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2015 10:31am
Darryl916 wrote:
I get the point of the OP and all the other "speak with your wallet" stuff but here is where I stand... My smoker is a...
I get the point of the OP and all the other "speak with your wallet" stuff but here is where I stand...

My smoker is a 2007. It's a 2007 because

1. it cost me $2500 and is as good as any other 250 2 stroke available new for 6k.
2. other than cheap to rebuild the motor, it's not a better bike to race.
- it's harder to ride
- less forgiving
- harder to jump
- not as competitive in a class full of 4 stroke as another 4 stroke which is easier to ride fast in more situations


I love 2 strokes as much as anyone else as they are super fun and such, but I must admit technology has moved forward. 4 strokes are so much more tractable and so much easier to ride with such broad power.

The only way 2 strokes will come back main stream in MX and SX is if a sanctioning body forces it. And I don't see them doing that, because why would they? The sport is bigger than it ever has been. I'm not going to stop racing until 2 strokes come back and neither is anyone else. We are all going to buy a 4 stroke because it's what is most effective against other 4 strokes and life will go on. Period, end of discussion.
This.

I got back to MX 4 months ago(had a 3 1/2 year break because of multiple serious knee injuries) and i bought an RM 250 -08. Before a took the break i ha been riding 4 strokes for about 4 years and geting on a 2 stroke was weird. To sum up a long story to a short one i am buying a KTM 450 2014 tomorrow, why? Because a 450 is economical, easy to ride fast, safer than a 2 stroke.

I will keep the RM but i don't think i will ride it this summer, maybe once or twice.

The Shop

#991
Posts
1685
Joined
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Location
Melbourne, AU
3/20/2015 10:35am
cslacker wrote:
Yes because only those with massive amounts of disposable income are allowed to have an opinion.
TailSoHard wrote:
Everyone is "allowed" to have an opinion, but the "opinion" of someone buying a bike will carry more weight than someone who is simply saying what...
Everyone is "allowed" to have an opinion, but the "opinion" of someone buying a bike will carry more weight than someone who is simply saying what they want on a forum.
cslacker wrote:
My response was meant to be more sarcastic than serious... I'm just waiting for a bike that motivates me to separate with my money. That bike...
My response was meant to be more sarcastic than serious... I'm just waiting for a bike that motivates me to separate with my money. That bike currently doesn't exist.
Hence the currant "AF" market.
seth505
Posts
10210
Joined
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Location
SD, CA, USA
3/20/2015 10:38am
TeamGreen wrote:
And, that's fine; but, yours is the reality of the 2-Stroke crowd "en masse" and it flies in he face of the claims made by the...
And, that's fine; but, yours is the reality of the 2-Stroke crowd "en masse" and it flies in he face of the claims made by the crowd when they're arguing about he issue of how & why 2 strokes got left behind.

Others have made the point about the KTM 2T "off-road" bikes...and. it's true: They're are A LOT of them!

Note: 2T Models that're homologated for 2015, as I understand it, are just "barely" making it in by the number. Husky knows they could have sold quite a bit more; but, didn't have the capacity to get them done on time...so...to be fair...

So, There's always that!

Btw, the guy that runs Husky, in Europe, you know...The Company? He's very Moto and he's been known to walk out on a GNCC course and "take it all in". Saw him in Florida during Daytona Bike Week...the dude is all about the bikes...from MX to Enduro to Desert...From Dual-Sport to Adventure...
seth505 wrote:
You're a smart dude and obviously way more in the know than the average person here...You don't really think current sales numbers have anything to do...
You're a smart dude and obviously way more in the know than the average person here...You don't really think current sales numbers have anything to do with "how and why the 2 strokes got left behind" do you?

Darryl :p
TeamGreen wrote:
When the 4-Strokes came out...we all ran to them and left the other bikes in the dust. We did that. Yes, there were other driving forces...rules...OEM's...
When the 4-Strokes came out...we all ran to them and left the other bikes in the dust. We did that.

Yes, there were other driving forces...rules...OEM's seeing a potential to sell bikes that the other guys didn't have (Remember Yamaha's lead for...what...4 models years?)

When Honda came out with w/ the 450R...2002? It went NUTS!

Then Zook.

Then Kawasaki.

During all this, KTM goes and buys Husaberg: Instant 4T Hot-Rod. Just add Orange (Kinda throws water all over the Husky is a KTM thing!)

Remember?

It really is and was market driven.

No Boogeyman.

We did this.

You notice that I've got No Bitch with any one person in particular?

It's US.

We can change this.

Will we?
You are exactly right, it was market driven (but at the same time force-fed). I just can't say "us" with a straight face as I was never on board and have only bought 2 strokes, I just don't buy a new one every year.

My Husky is the only 4-stroke in the garage because it is street legal and I have no choice there Cool
RMT
Posts
1269
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Location
Chicagoland, IL, USA
3/20/2015 10:38am
2-strokes are awesome. When I bought my bike last spring, I had remembered how hard it was to find a 2013 250SX anywhere, KTM must have...
2-strokes are awesome.

When I bought my bike last spring, I had remembered how hard it was to find a 2013 250SX anywhere, KTM must have upped the production volume to reflect this, because when I bought my bike, my dealer had sold 25 2014 250SXs alone...



Oh and BTW, the sales thing isn't as instantaneous of a number as you would think. After KTM ships it to a dealer, to the KTM company, that is a sale. Dealers order what they think they can sell pre model year. The act of retail selling, and KTM selling are two different things.
Wrong. If the bike does not sell at retail then the dealer can't order new ones and the whole train slows down. Now the OEM has to give money back that they already made in the form of dealer incentives to help move slow selling bikes. If they didn't, and dealers did not order more because they had a lot in stock, where would they sell them (the oem).

Good post team green and ML512 is on point above and 100% correct.
#991
Posts
1685
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Location
Melbourne, AU
3/20/2015 10:39am
Darryl916 wrote:
I get the point of the OP and all the other "speak with your wallet" stuff but here is where I stand... My smoker is a...
I get the point of the OP and all the other "speak with your wallet" stuff but here is where I stand...

My smoker is a 2007. It's a 2007 because

1. it cost me $2500 and is as good as any other 250 2 stroke available new for 6k.
2. other than cheap to rebuild the motor, it's not a better bike to race.
- it's harder to ride
- less forgiving
- harder to jump
- not as competitive in a class full of 4 stroke as another 4 stroke which is easier to ride fast in more situations


I love 2 strokes as much as anyone else as they are super fun and such, but I must admit technology has moved forward. 4 strokes are so much more tractable and so much easier to ride with such broad power.

The only way 2 strokes will come back main stream in MX and SX is if a sanctioning body forces it. And I don't see them doing that, because why would they? The sport is bigger than it ever has been. I'm not going to stop racing until 2 strokes come back and neither is anyone else. We are all going to buy a 4 stroke because it's what is most effective against other 4 strokes and life will go on. Period, end of discussion.
Motofinne wrote:
This. I got back to MX 4 months ago(had a 3 1/2 year break because of multiple serious knee injuries) and i bought an RM 250...
This.

I got back to MX 4 months ago(had a 3 1/2 year break because of multiple serious knee injuries) and i bought an RM 250 -08. Before a took the break i ha been riding 4 strokes for about 4 years and geting on a 2 stroke was weird. To sum up a long story to a short one i am buying a KTM 450 2014 tomorrow, why? Because a 450 is economical, easy to ride fast, safer than a 2 stroke.

I will keep the RM but i don't think i will ride it this summer, maybe once or twice.
If you decide to sell the RM. I know a bloke who's in the market for one ATM.

Maybe we just don't want the current Yamaha or KTM.. I'm not spending $6500 on a 10 year old design, and the last KTMs I had were the most unreliable bikes I ever had. I hate the WP suspension too.
Build a piston port full reed CR, or a New RM and I'd be all over it.
I've been looking for a good semi fresh 06-08 RM250 within 400 miles of me for 6 months. Nothing nice stays available on CL for more than a few days.
Trav138
Posts
1477
Joined
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Location
USA
3/20/2015 10:42am
Darryl916 wrote:
I get the point of the OP and all the other "speak with your wallet" stuff but here is where I stand... My smoker is a...
I get the point of the OP and all the other "speak with your wallet" stuff but here is where I stand...

My smoker is a 2007. It's a 2007 because

1. it cost me $2500 and is as good as any other 250 2 stroke available new for 6k.
2. other than cheap to rebuild the motor, it's not a better bike to race.
- it's harder to ride
- less forgiving
- harder to jump
- not as competitive in a class full of 4 stroke as another 4 stroke which is easier to ride fast in more situations


I love 2 strokes as much as anyone else as they are super fun and such, but I must admit technology has moved forward. 4 strokes are so much more tractable and so much easier to ride with such broad power.

The only way 2 strokes will come back main stream in MX and SX is if a sanctioning body forces it. And I don't see them doing that, because why would they? The sport is bigger than it ever has been. I'm not going to stop racing until 2 strokes come back and neither is anyone else. We are all going to buy a 4 stroke because it's what is most effective against other 4 strokes and life will go on. Period, end of discussion.
Motofinne wrote:
This. I got back to MX 4 months ago(had a 3 1/2 year break because of multiple serious knee injuries) and i bought an RM 250...
This.

I got back to MX 4 months ago(had a 3 1/2 year break because of multiple serious knee injuries) and i bought an RM 250 -08. Before a took the break i ha been riding 4 strokes for about 4 years and geting on a 2 stroke was weird. To sum up a long story to a short one i am buying a KTM 450 2014 tomorrow, why? Because a 450 is economical, easy to ride fast, safer than a 2 stroke.

I will keep the RM but i don't think i will ride it this summer, maybe once or twice.
Thats the thing if you are racing mx then the fourstroke is simply better for most people. I rode my cousins New RMZ around a little bit and just wow no wonder people ride them over their heads. You could really go fast on that bike with not a lot of skill lol. compared to riding a 2 stroke that i've been on the last 5 years that RMZ was a blast i can't lie
kijen
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1229
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Location
Jacksonville, FL, USA
3/20/2015 10:46am
I'm curious if the yami parts guys have any numbers, due to the fact there are some many older yz' s out there. Would think it would show in parts? Yam also not helping themselves producing the same bike for so long. What is the incentive of buying a 2015 when my 05 is already better, updated suspension, motor etc...
RMT
Posts
1269
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Location
Chicagoland, IL, USA
3/20/2015 10:47am
I get guys down on the yz250, but what would you change and develop that would make it better? The engine is awesome, great suspension, reliable and good fit and finish. It would be a huge gamble for Yamaha to spend R&D money on a bike that doesn't sell in numbers to justify the expense. KTM can spread the R&D money across several platforms but Yamaha is only selling one model.

I worked for Suzuki when we didn't have a 4 stroke and we couldn't give RM250's away. Now that bike is sought after but nobody was buying them back when they were made. OEM's don't use a crystal ball to decide what to make, it's based on demand.
3/20/2015 10:47am
TeamGreen wrote:
When the 4-Strokes came out...we all ran to them and left the other bikes in the dust. We did that. Yes, there were other driving forces...rules...OEM's...
When the 4-Strokes came out...we all ran to them and left the other bikes in the dust. We did that.

Yes, there were other driving forces...rules...OEM's seeing a potential to sell bikes that the other guys didn't have (Remember Yamaha's lead for...what...4 models years?)

When Honda came out with w/ the 450R...2002? It went NUTS!

Then Zook.

Then Kawasaki.

During all this, KTM goes and buys Husaberg: Instant 4T Hot-Rod. Just add Orange (Kinda throws water all over the Husky is a KTM thing!)

Remember?

It really is and was market driven.

No Boogeyman.

We did this.

You notice that I've got No Bitch with any one person in particular?

It's US.

We can change this.

Will we?
someone gets it, I was a Kawasaki and Suzuki dealer when the 4t's came out, they out sold the 2t's by 5 to 1, and now the sales have dropped world wide since the peak in 07 - 08, they only make the high selling unit,

and KTM do sell more 4 t exc's in any country's sales stats i have ever seen

most places in the world you can race them against any 250F, i am not sure why not having them in pro racing effects anything, does having a restrictor plate on big tracks in nascar effect what truck you will by?
Zracer
Posts
1479
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2/17/2013
Location
Saint Clair, MI, USA
3/20/2015 10:48am
TeamGreen wrote:
Yesterday, while out riding, I had a talk with a young man that's an accomplished rider, tester, photographer and writer. He IS a fan of 2-Strokes...
Yesterday, while out riding, I had a talk with a young man that's an accomplished rider, tester, photographer and writer. He IS a fan of 2-Strokes. As am I. I've got a KX500SR stashed in my office that is simply Awesome and I have a '78-'79 CR250R (FIM-RC conversion) that's kinda silly cool, too (Thanks Newman!).

We were talking about New Bikes, Homologation, the Rules for the Nationals & SX...etc.

We got back to the discussion of 2-storkes and the people responsible for/promoting/making them at the OEM's... namely the ones that make current 2-strokes...and how the sales aren't in tune with what is "said" on the forums.

The most notable issue: The number of units sold and the needs for homologation (400). You know those "$1000 off KTM 2-Strokes"? Those hold-over YZ's standing right next to the New '15s on the showroom floor? Well, those are indicative of the simple fact that they AREN'T moving in the numbers that some people think.

That means people AREN'T BUYING THEM.

So, to revisit the obvious:

1. You can't homologate without a certain number of units.
2. You can't get the company to allow you to import a bunch of '15s when there's still plenty of '14s in Inventory (The dilemma for the guys at Yamaha and KTM, USA that're fighting for YOUR cause)
3. 4-Strokes are winning; because, that's what people ARE BUYING.
4. Better sales would fund MORE R&D. Period.
5. Where's all the "I put my money where my mouth is!"?

If you're going to scream about some sort of conspiracy?
If you're going to blame the OEMS?
If you've got a point?

PROVE IT. Buy SOMETHING.

Bring'em Back!



* "Vital 2 Stroke Community " is utilized due to the simple fact that this is the home of the Vital 2-Stroke crowd, you know: The guys that've thrown everyone and everything UNDER THE BUS...from the AMA, MX Sports, Honda to the companies that're still making the bikes in question.
So where is your new 2 stroke? You say you care about 2 strokes and hand out all this good info so where is yours?
cslacker
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380
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Location
Glendale, AZ, USA
3/20/2015 10:48am
#991 wrote:
Hence the currant "AF" market.
Yep. According to AJ at Service Honda, they put out 300 or so AF's a year and the number is only that low due to manufacturing time. There is demand for more...

TeamGreen
Posts
37228
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11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
3/20/2015 10:50am
kijen wrote:
I'm curious if the yami parts guys have any numbers, due to the fact there are some many older yz' s out there. Would think it...
I'm curious if the yami parts guys have any numbers, due to the fact there are some many older yz' s out there. Would think it would show in parts? Yam also not helping themselves producing the same bike for so long. What is the incentive of buying a 2015 when my 05 is already better, updated suspension, motor etc...
I'm wondering the same thing. I'm recalling a few guys posting about buying the OEM Yamaha plastic for a '15 conversion.

Also, I get the feeling that the After-Market companies are selling the vast majority of YZ replacement parts.
Atmos
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146
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USA
3/20/2015 10:53am
The smartest poster in this thread's entirety isn't myself for a change. It's Manny. I tip my hat to you, sir.
#991
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1685
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Location
Melbourne, AU
3/20/2015 10:54am
I always thought the main motivation for the 4T push was the environmental laws in Cali and the fear in the Industry that they may go world wide.
I joined the 4T "revolution" because I didn't think there was going to be a future choice. When Honda stopped their 2T production that further prompted my move to the 4T's.

If that was the case then the 2T is set to make a massive come back once DFI is in production. Asfaras4T'sbeing more tractable and easier to ride etc. Ridden a KTM300 lately?

As far as 4T's being safer to ride. Total contradiction! They can't be faster whilst being safer to ride Tongue
#991
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Location
Melbourne, AU
3/20/2015 10:56am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2015 11:04am
TeamGreen wrote:
When the 4-Strokes came out...we all ran to them and left the other bikes in the dust. We did that. Yes, there were other driving forces...rules...OEM's...
When the 4-Strokes came out...we all ran to them and left the other bikes in the dust. We did that.

Yes, there were other driving forces...rules...OEM's seeing a potential to sell bikes that the other guys didn't have (Remember Yamaha's lead for...what...4 models years?)

When Honda came out with w/ the 450R...2002? It went NUTS!

Then Zook.

Then Kawasaki.

During all this, KTM goes and buys Husaberg: Instant 4T Hot-Rod. Just add Orange (Kinda throws water all over the Husky is a KTM thing!)

Remember?

It really is and was market driven.

No Boogeyman.

We did this.

You notice that I've got No Bitch with any one person in particular?

It's US.

We can change this.

Will we?
scott_nz wrote:
someone gets it, I was a Kawasaki and Suzuki dealer when the 4t's came out, they out sold the 2t's by 5 to 1, and now...
someone gets it, I was a Kawasaki and Suzuki dealer when the 4t's came out, they out sold the 2t's by 5 to 1, and now the sales have dropped world wide since the peak in 07 - 08, they only make the high selling unit,

and KTM do sell more 4 t exc's in any country's sales stats i have ever seen

most places in the world you can race them against any 250F, i am not sure why not having them in pro racing effects anything, does having a restrictor plate on big tracks in nascar effect what truck you will by?
I'll be stunned if KTM sell more 4T's than 2T's in Australia this yr. Husky, TM and Beta won't. Sherco won't be far behind.


IMO, the 4T is slowly killing MX here. Hence why the 250 2T's are allowed in the 250F class here.

Every 16 yr old Jnr rider's father I know is buying their son a 250 2T for Snr's next yr. Most also did it this yr.
Grieby54
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2826
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7/1/2008
Location
Castle Rock, CO, USA
3/20/2015 10:56am
TeamGreen - You should probably give up. You're arguing a business case and discussing market demand to a bunch of people who don't understand how a business actually works. Whether this is because MX is a predominantly blue collar sport or if there are people who are just that uneducated about how a business runs, I'm not sure.

It's simple really - companies put their R&D money into the highest selling commodities. If I'm selling 20 pens to every 1 pencil I sell, why in the world would I sink money into further R&D for the pencils? Few people are buying them, therefore there's not way to recoup my R&D costs. I understand people saying that an 06 YZ250 is just as good as any new 2 stroke, and I don't disagree, but Yamaha doesn't make a single penny when you buy a used YZ250, therefore there aren't any additional funds to put into R&D.

It's not rocket science - it's basic business.
TailSoHard
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1656
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Location
Beer City, MI, USA
3/20/2015 10:56am
cslacker wrote:
Yes because only those with massive amounts of disposable income are allowed to have an opinion.
TailSoHard wrote:
Everyone is "allowed" to have an opinion, but the "opinion" of someone buying a bike will carry more weight than someone who is simply saying what...
Everyone is "allowed" to have an opinion, but the "opinion" of someone buying a bike will carry more weight than someone who is simply saying what they want on a forum.
cslacker wrote:
My response was meant to be more sarcastic than serious... I'm just waiting for a bike that motivates me to separate with my money. That bike...
My response was meant to be more sarcastic than serious... I'm just waiting for a bike that motivates me to separate with my money. That bike currently doesn't exist.
Oh I wasn't trying to sound like a smart-ass, I was trying to elaborate on your point a little... oh well, just another one of my failed attempts at internet sarcasm.

I agree, I'm still waiting on my perfect bike to come out...
Darryl916
Posts
1252
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12/19/2013
Location
Budds Creek, MD, USA
3/20/2015 11:01am
Darryl916 wrote:
I get the point of the OP and all the other "speak with your wallet" stuff but here is where I stand... My smoker is a...
I get the point of the OP and all the other "speak with your wallet" stuff but here is where I stand...

My smoker is a 2007. It's a 2007 because

1. it cost me $2500 and is as good as any other 250 2 stroke available new for 6k.
2. other than cheap to rebuild the motor, it's not a better bike to race.
- it's harder to ride
- less forgiving
- harder to jump
- not as competitive in a class full of 4 stroke as another 4 stroke which is easier to ride fast in more situations


I love 2 strokes as much as anyone else as they are super fun and such, but I must admit technology has moved forward. 4 strokes are so much more tractable and so much easier to ride with such broad power.

The only way 2 strokes will come back main stream in MX and SX is if a sanctioning body forces it. And I don't see them doing that, because why would they? The sport is bigger than it ever has been. I'm not going to stop racing until 2 strokes come back and neither is anyone else. We are all going to buy a 4 stroke because it's what is most effective against other 4 strokes and life will go on. Period, end of discussion.
Motofinne wrote:
This. I got back to MX 4 months ago(had a 3 1/2 year break because of multiple serious knee injuries) and i bought an RM 250...
This.

I got back to MX 4 months ago(had a 3 1/2 year break because of multiple serious knee injuries) and i bought an RM 250 -08. Before a took the break i ha been riding 4 strokes for about 4 years and geting on a 2 stroke was weird. To sum up a long story to a short one i am buying a KTM 450 2014 tomorrow, why? Because a 450 is economical, easy to ride fast, safer than a 2 stroke.

I will keep the RM but i don't think i will ride it this summer, maybe once or twice.
Trav138 wrote:
Thats the thing if you are racing mx then the fourstroke is simply better for most people. I rode my cousins New RMZ around a little...
Thats the thing if you are racing mx then the fourstroke is simply better for most people. I rode my cousins New RMZ around a little bit and just wow no wonder people ride them over their heads. You could really go fast on that bike with not a lot of skill lol. compared to riding a 2 stroke that i've been on the last 5 years that RMZ was a blast i can't lie
Yeah, we may not like it but it's how it is. 2 strokes are fun and I also believe them to be an essential part of learning to ride a dirt bike correctly because they don't tolerate many mistakes, lazy form, etc.. With that said, a person that can ride a 2 stroke "ok" can haul ass on a 4 stroke pretty easy.

My CR250 is as bad ass as any 2 stroke in the world and my buddies, novice, extremely fast intermediate, and pro card holders that have long switched to 4 strokes are reluctant to touch it. No joke.
cslacker
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380
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Location
Glendale, AZ, USA
3/20/2015 11:02am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2015 11:05am
scott_nz wrote:
someone gets it, I was a Kawasaki and Suzuki dealer when the 4t's came out, they out sold the 2t's by 5 to 1, and now...
someone gets it, I was a Kawasaki and Suzuki dealer when the 4t's came out, they out sold the 2t's by 5 to 1, and now the sales have dropped world wide since the peak in 07 - 08, they only make the high selling unit,

and KTM do sell more 4 t exc's in any country's sales stats i have ever seen

most places in the world you can race them against any 250F, i am not sure why not having them in pro racing effects anything, does having a restrictor plate on big tracks in nascar effect what truck you will by?
If what wins and is raced in pro racing does not effect the sales numbers for the OEMs then why do they spend any money on pro racing?

As far as the 4t exc's go, those are street legal. the 2t varient isn't in most places so comparing sales figures isn't apples to apples. 2 strokes suck for highway type driving anyways so even if they were legal it really wouldn't matter.

I do however agree with everyone here regarding the demand=development argument. But you need to consider that development also leads to demand... The reason that 4t took off like they did was people felt they needed one to be competitive. And if you were talking the 125 class they were absolutely right. Let's be honest, with the 125/250 250/450 class structure they do have a huge advantage. Even in an equal displacement environment they still have a few advantages. Finally remember that the equal displacement in the amateur ranks didn't happen until '09 or '10. By then it was too late and minds were already swayed.

*not trying to state any conspiracy. The companies have followed what was best for business and it has led us to this point. I just don't like the current situation...
3/20/2015 11:03am
#991 wrote:
I'll be stunned if KTM sell more 4T's than 2T's in Australia this yr. Husky, TM and Beta won't. Sherco won't be far behind. IMO, the...
I'll be stunned if KTM sell more 4T's than 2T's in Australia this yr. Husky, TM and Beta won't. Sherco won't be far behind.


IMO, the 4T is slowly killing MX here. Hence why the 250 2T's are allowed in the 250F class here.

Every 16 yr old Jnr rider's father I know is buying their son a 250 2T for Snr's next yr. Most also did it this yr.
look up the stats, australia's are published online, in off road only the KTM300 and TE300 makes the top 10 sellers list, the rest are four strokes, incl the top 3 overall,

the only 2 stroke that makes the top 10 in the mx market, is the KTM50, and the only one in offroad overall is the PW50

http://www.fcai.com.au/news/news/all/all/380/road-motorcycle-sales-fini…
3/20/2015 11:07am
If you want to know how well new two strokes are selling, look at the used bike market. What you want to be looking for are the people that buy new bikes every year/other year. Good luck finding a 2011+ that the seller isn't asking way to much. Then look at 450's, if I look for couple weeks i could have a 2013 for 4k.

I'm on a 06 yz250 that i've been riding for 5 years. It's been a great bike, it's just worn out past the point of recovery. I'd love for my next bike to be another. But not EFI, no R and D, and I can get a 2 year old 450 for cheaper? I'm going with the 450.
Toste
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Fantasy
3/20/2015 11:07am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2015 11:13am
Grieby54 wrote:
TeamGreen - You should probably give up. You're arguing a business case and discussing market demand to a bunch of people who don't understand how a...
TeamGreen - You should probably give up. You're arguing a business case and discussing market demand to a bunch of people who don't understand how a business actually works. Whether this is because MX is a predominantly blue collar sport or if there are people who are just that uneducated about how a business runs, I'm not sure.

It's simple really - companies put their R&D money into the highest selling commodities. If I'm selling 20 pens to every 1 pencil I sell, why in the world would I sink money into further R&D for the pencils? Few people are buying them, therefore there's not way to recoup my R&D costs. I understand people saying that an 06 YZ250 is just as good as any new 2 stroke, and I don't disagree, but Yamaha doesn't make a single penny when you buy a used YZ250, therefore there aren't any additional funds to put into R&D.

It's not rocket science - it's basic business.
Who's saying 4-strokes aren't a gold mine (in the short term) for the OEMs?
seth505
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SD, CA, USA
3/20/2015 11:08am
Grieby54 wrote:
TeamGreen - You should probably give up. You're arguing a business case and discussing market demand to a bunch of people who don't understand how a...
TeamGreen - You should probably give up. You're arguing a business case and discussing market demand to a bunch of people who don't understand how a business actually works. Whether this is because MX is a predominantly blue collar sport or if there are people who are just that uneducated about how a business runs, I'm not sure.

It's simple really - companies put their R&D money into the highest selling commodities. If I'm selling 20 pens to every 1 pencil I sell, why in the world would I sink money into further R&D for the pencils? Few people are buying them, therefore there's not way to recoup my R&D costs. I understand people saying that an 06 YZ250 is just as good as any new 2 stroke, and I don't disagree, but Yamaha doesn't make a single penny when you buy a used YZ250, therefore there aren't any additional funds to put into R&D.

It's not rocket science - it's basic business.
4 strokes were the "pencils" when they started sinking R&D dollars into them.
IWreckALot
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Fort Worth, TX, USA
3/20/2015 11:09am
What does homologation have to do with what the weekend warriors are buying? I thought the homologation only had to do with the pro rules.

To me, I'm in the category that believe the 250F would still be the preferred bike if they made the displacement equal. And to me, that is an argument to actually allow equal displacement rather than not allow it. But this only applies if you believe that winning Sunday sells bikes Mondays.

I'm not one of the guys crying about 2t vs. 4t. I've ridden and loved riding both. But I have the same mentality about a 4 stroke or 2 stroke. Not buying new either way so development and budget guy wouldn't consider my buying power in their decision.
#991
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Melbourne, AU
3/20/2015 11:10am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2015 11:17am
#991 wrote:
I'll be stunned if KTM sell more 4T's than 2T's in Australia this yr. Husky, TM and Beta won't. Sherco won't be far behind. IMO, the...
I'll be stunned if KTM sell more 4T's than 2T's in Australia this yr. Husky, TM and Beta won't. Sherco won't be far behind.


IMO, the 4T is slowly killing MX here. Hence why the 250 2T's are allowed in the 250F class here.

Every 16 yr old Jnr rider's father I know is buying their son a 250 2T for Snr's next yr. Most also did it this yr.
scott_nz wrote:
look up the stats, australia's are published online, in off road only the KTM300 and TE300 makes the top 10 sellers list, the rest are four...
look up the stats, australia's are published online, in off road only the KTM300 and TE300 makes the top 10 sellers list, the rest are four strokes, incl the top 3 overall,

the only 2 stroke that makes the top 10 in the mx market, is the KTM50, and the only one in offroad overall is the PW50

http://www.fcai.com.au/news/news/all/all/380/road-motorcycle-sales-fini…
Soon. Every bike in the 250 class here will be a 2T.

Unless you race MX, no one here wants the 4T's anymore. They're Uncool lol. Not that we have any say or Influence in the market.

IMO. 2T's will come back to mainstream if we aren't all riding electric bikes before then. Especially if environmental reasons have any Influence. I.e. DFI. Watch the R&D Investment Increase once we see that in production.
Uncle Tony
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New York, NY, USA
3/20/2015 11:15am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2015 11:19am
Grieby54 wrote:
TeamGreen - You should probably give up. You're arguing a business case and discussing market demand to a bunch of people who don't understand how a...
TeamGreen - You should probably give up. You're arguing a business case and discussing market demand to a bunch of people who don't understand how a business actually works. Whether this is because MX is a predominantly blue collar sport or if there are people who are just that uneducated about how a business runs, I'm not sure.

It's simple really - companies put their R&D money into the highest selling commodities. If I'm selling 20 pens to every 1 pencil I sell, why in the world would I sink money into further R&D for the pencils? Few people are buying them, therefore there's not way to recoup my R&D costs. I understand people saying that an 06 YZ250 is just as good as any new 2 stroke, and I don't disagree, but Yamaha doesn't make a single penny when you buy a used YZ250, therefore there aren't any additional funds to put into R&D.

It's not rocket science - it's basic business.
I purchased a new 2 stroke, but I don't think they're ever coming back,and I don't care, Grieby54 posts sez it all, that's just The way it is
TailSoHard
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Beer City, MI, USA
3/20/2015 11:18am
On a side note:

Next time you guys go into a dealership, make sure and go out of your way to tell (in person, not online) a salesman or manager that you would buy a two-stroke Kawi, Suzuki, or Honda today if they made one. A lot of times all it takes is information travelling through a salesman to a manager to a rep to a district manager to an exec, etc. My reps have all told me to always let them know what people are asking for because it does carry some weight when the execs all hear that people are actually AT a dealership READY TO BUY something that THEY DON'T MAKE. Yes, buying one will sway the sales statistics towards companies sinking money in their R&D, but there is more than one way to show demand for a product.

Post a reply to: (*)Vital 2 Stroke Community ain't helping the cause...

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