crickets

As far as I know the 85 is the newest year because the exhaust port exited the cylinder differently on the 86 and up
How was the 85 engine?

84 had great low end, my favorite 125 engine ever. 85 was more mid-top end.

Had a heck of a time getting signed in and logged on, and for the life of me have no clue to where the first attempt posting ended up. If a Mod finds it outside of this subject, please delete it

This is an old thread, maybe some VMX people still follow so will throw my experience into the forum.

Before AHRMA became substantially rooted in Southern California, "AHRMA" sanction events were ran at LACR located in Palmdale, California with the widely and well established CRC organization.

I'd "discovered" vintage racing one day driving down to the area on other business, and seeing a truck go by with two beautiful Maicos of what is considered the GP class. The flashback took my interest more so than Raquel Welch ever did.

So the journey began, discovered a 1974 KX 450 at a local dismantler, complete, sans the plastic fuel tank (this becomes significant later on here).

Tony Mosley, affiliated with Kawasaki in Texas provided so much help locating engine parts for the bike from old inventory in dealer networks throughout the sate. It wasn't cheap, but as I'd rode a 78 KX 125 during the same period, seemed just what I wanted to begin racing again after 10 years. This was 1991 AIRC. Through my employment also had access to a complete machining facility, many of the replacement parts were hand made, a keen eye would applicate that, but AHRMA tech inspectors with little experience in engineering or manufacturing
gawked those modifications into their inexperienced brains as a "new" or not "vintage" classified eligible (once again significant later on).

After rebuilding (doubt the term "resorted" meant the same then as now, big money pays to shelf many classic bikes in a warehouse somewhere, never to be saddled again. "Big Money" becomes significant later on here as well), took off to LACR for my first "vintage" race in years. I'd raced with CRC a few times in modern classes on rat bikes, which is about all a single parent with a 7 year old boy could muster.

The turn out then was actually pretty good, many riders from So California, Northern California (they are different), Arizona and other areas. Hope these guys don't mind their name being dropped, and apologize to all those I'd met back then and forgotten the name with the face of. Ed Ho, John Lundgren, "Baby Huey" and many others were some of the riders I'd first met and raced with back then. One of the most memorable events was where Peter Lampu attended, walked up to the line looking at my KX 450 and said it looked just like his race bike. I'm sure he hadn't seen one in years, but the jest of his comment sure stuck with me.
Lining up with a Champion such as him was an experience I'd never had before, riding on the same track with a champion i'd only read about was really an experience. A lot of that was because I wasn't distracted by rules and tech inspection that, up until that point, had never crossed my mind or even been involved with.
The memories I recall from when I was a "real racer" were at AMA District club events, CMC, RACE and "Pat's" 4-Corners MX Track. (Where watching John DeSoto and many up starts such as Clint Harding "practicing" before their next "Pro" race.

Yep, there were a lot of Elsinores, Maicos, CZs and the lot, none I recall really standing out, at least to the extent of what "big money" was building and racing at AHRMA events held in Tulare, California.
I'd never seen billet clamps at the level of racing I'd done back in the period, much less cylinders modified to utilize modern reedvalve technology, and Works Performance shocks, hell, I was using a pair of old Boge LTG shocks at the time, well used at that.

It seemed that, if you appeared influential either as an individual, or as a person with more money than common business sense (back then) and provided promotion support, your products for machines already exotic in stock trim, even more so with racers classified by financial ability, rather than a specific set of rules. Everyone from those seated on
the AHRMA board of directors, race committee, secretary, tech inspectors to track promoters took their share of not only allowing the financial bending of the rules, but also benefited from it in form of branding their names on newly designed products using the latest in manufacturing technology, all in the name of providing the racer with truly "replica" DM Frame, Hallman Replica, with the list going on and on. This left the typical vintage racer with the best resource they had, building machines from period parts of the time. This continues to this date.

While the rules and eligibility committee were busy tailoring AHRMA class structure,
initially input from those with much more experience in the motocross market of various production years, it seemed to become clear to them, not every situation could be accounted for, much less bother to take the time to actually investigate throughly a specific machines eligibility into a particular class.

Then, a bright person, with primary interest only in mainly the big twin classes came up with a stroke of
genius, and proposed the "Sunset "Rule". Basically what it achieved for the AHRMA board of directors, was a way to temperately alternative themselves of what at the time were near hundreds of various models and varying configurations being submitted to them for discussion, judgment and either inclusion or exclusion within the holy grail rule book of vintage motocross, that to this day, local clubs still follow blindly into the abyss, demise and downfall of large scale vintage motocross in the United States.
If you disagree with this, you haven't pulled your head out and seen the progressive mentality towards competing with machines gone by in Europe and Australia.

My involvement with the AHRMA rules and edibility committee came at a period when the Sunset Rule was in it's infancy. The common sense and straggly used was basically one fact. It may indeed have been one of the last inclusions AHRMA made for a year category machine to be allowed to compete in the next lower year model class.

My efforts were focused around the 1978 KX250. Anyone that has ever picked up a set of calipers can easily see, through all it's hype of the day, gold anodizing, the design of the machine is hardly even minimally close to what most 1977 Historical Class machines were/are. It's very obvious, to anyone with the slightest eye for motorcycle design, the 78 KX does not use any engineering design even close to the majority of machines it would compete againstc in the GP Class. My sole reference thought the many exchanges, was a side by side comparison to the 1977 Maicos. The KX doesn't even stand in the same light, other than the possibility of light shining off it's many gold anodized components.
The sad fact was, one of the committee, AIRC, actually used this as a rebuttal to one of my submissions....

I'd talked to Arizona Dave, whom I think was instrumental in having the 1975/1976 included into the 1974 vintage class via like design. Still, both on the board and track, there are many that view this as some kind of blasphemy. Take a look at nearly all other machines entered competitively into the "vintage class", and you'll notice virtually all have replacement swingarms with relocated lower shock mounts, which is technically the only difference between a 1974 KX and those previously mentioned. That was a sound decision by the board, those machines have continued to be included into the vintage class, and have not proved to have any performance advantage. In reality, with "big" money involved, the KX stands pale in comparison to the mega buck modified Maicos, CZ's and Hondas from the same period.
Why?
Because there just wasn't a market at the time to make money from those machines. When a model year where only 2000 machines were manufactured, the Sunset rule, or it's exclusion from rule defined period of design should be the governing factor, those practices ensure very few 1978 models of KX will ever be seen outside a collection, much less on track.

If not for the Sunset Rules final foothold in the AHRMA rulebook, many other makes and models that previously were unfound could be brought back to their former glory (or ridicule as many were upon initial release).

For a KX person such as myself, and here in this thread discussing disk brake, air cooled KX's,
the 1983 KDX 250 came OEM with a drum front brake. For all intent and purpose, the KDX of this year is identical to the much desired 1982 KX 250 for us Kawasaki fanatics. The KDX has a loop rear with hand holds, which in all honesty would benefit most as seat heights from those years was extremely high. It uses the center port engine, is a 6-speed, and of course a front and rear lighting set up, but surely removing those would not provide a performance increase enough to deter it from being included into the GP class. While changing out the disk front end on an 1982 KX250 will never (under the existing rules) allow it to be an eligible machine, machines enjoying the blessing from the rule makers are allowed to cross mix components. IF the 1983 KDX 250 were classified under the same deciding factors in which all other eligible machines for that class have been, it's 38mm front forks could be exchanged for most any 42mm design utilized by class eligible machines, which is very common practice within the AHRMA racing group. I know this fact, at least to the extent of having been through many tech inspections with a few different KX's that have been "hand" modified to accommodate performance modifications. You won't see many KX450 or KX400 with reedvalve cylinders. Having machine shop access, and a very good welder as a friend, a cylinder was cut, hogged and welded to allowing what AHRMA rules stated were acceptable usage for the vintage class. Did performance increase? Sure as hell did. Went through two rubber cushioned rear hubs, enough so to eventually go back to the realistic power output those engines have, given chassis and component design. Correct me if wrong, as long a part is hand made, not from a machine that isn't allowed in AHRMA, it's pretty much allowed. As long as it's not primered
Did I win a national title? No. Never fails to amaze me, the personalties of racer 40 or more years old, that may or may not have actually raced at expert/pro level in their day, even so only for a couple years, how demeaning, abusive, degrading and obnoxious people can be.
There are the many exceptions, and those people are the ones vintage racers continue to return year after year to reminisce and compete against in friendly fashion.

But, straying off the point here a bit.

Now, near 25 years since most of the events above, I come to this thread and see the same discussions that were ongoing when I was using my Atari on a dial up modem to post messages with. It tells me a few things. While racing competitively, then and now, money is the main factor to consistently win time after time. It does not however necessary improve the fun factor of vintage racing.

Secondly, 25 years later with so many clubs that have spun off from the initial organization, which for pride and face spent hundreds of thousands of dollars defending it's use of a trade name, only to drive it into bankruptcy, answer the phone from a participants questions with, "yea, we follow AHRMA's rulebook at our events represents the shortsightedness of people through their own fault, not that of a guide book written years ago. Even the U.S. Constitution has been amended time and time again. Even when a glimmer of hope arises, that disk brake KX might be able to compete in a newly formed club that is on an out and out campaign to get riders to attend. You post (no one calls anymore) a question about a specific make, model and years classification. Their answer is, "don't worry, come out and ride, we have a class for you". Buzzzz, wrong answer! Especially after researching a bit more discover your 1983 KX 500
is placed in the "modern 500" class, and competes with makes and models like the 2004 KX500......

Here's a plug. If you really want to ride your KX's, any kind, get out to a District 37 Big-6 Grand Prix race. You'll be classed into a competitively thought out year based structure, and above all else, get 45 minutes of track time in just one event. The attitude I'd spoken of earlier, after riding 3 years of "vintage" Big-6 GP's, I'll have to admit to having one myself when encountering an "Expert" AHRMA racer that spends a Sunday two 8 minute motos at a time, exclaiming how they are a National Champion. I guess the same can be said about my attitude, when a National Caliber Pro laughs at me thinking a 45 minute GP made me a points scorer of any kind. One driving factor of earning a #1 plate in the District 37 events is, free entry for all events the following years. Beats AHRMA trophies every time, IMHO, if you can get to that level. Novice and experts compete, but experts get more points/event.


Think I covered the "significant later on" quotes, except for one.
Remember seeing the two Maicos going down the highway?.
A couple of months later, AHRMA was putting on it's second regional (validation required) event at the Perris track in So Cal. My trophies (ahem) are boxed, so don't have the exact year, but think it 1992.
The first scheduled event was terribly rained out (what vintage motocrosser hasn't raced in the rain?)

At the rained out event, there was myself and the AMS wrecking crew in the parking lot. As we were standing at the front gate, we both looked at each other and just couldn't figure out where everyone was. Dave (i'd later found out who "Dave" really was) and we said to each other we both checked the schedule, the race is today. We all stood in front of the gate, telling stories of where we came from, where we rode, but most of all shared our enthusiasm about vintage motocross, and what it would mean not only to us, but how the idea would transcend through every generation of racer (not that this was an original ideal). Think after an hour or so, the rain came briefly into the subject. We both said, "surely, the race couldn't have been canceled because of the rain".

Later, yes, the event had been rescheduled. But that wasn't the last time racing as I'd known it had become constructed by those without the knowledge of what racing was really about. I could understand and forgive the promoter at least (not the no shows, gate might have opened if there was a long enough line to make money). My introduction to "new school" vintage motocross came at the rescheduled AHRMA Perris event some weeks later.

My idea of a vintage motocross bike was to make it fast, make it reliable, and as good looking as I could within an affordable budget.

Before realizing powder coating a vintage motocross frame blue isn't the brightest idea one could have, and KX450 replacement parts were near non-existent then, such as the seat cover I'd had the local upholstery guy do in blue marine bench seat material, sticking a later model dingy yellow aftermarket Vesco tank on targeted me for AHRMA technical scrutiny. Could have been anything I guess, the cooling fin rings I'd made to go over the gas Girling shocks, newer model green Acerbis replacement plastic,"classic" O'Neal riding gear with blue boots, anything.

But it narrowed down to the AHRMA tech inspector never have seen a 1974 Kawasaki KX450. How could he have known?
Other than the long rotted away plastic tank screw on emblems, nowhere to be seen was the word Kawasaki.
I was prepared this time, I'd brought along a copy of the 1974 KX450 service manual. How could anyone not possibly see what the bike was. The tech inspector just couldn't see the resemblance, much less anything else.

As we were discussing the eligibility, Dave walks by. I ask him to help me out, he was a growing sponsor of AHRMA, had a Kawasaki background, and knew exactly what make, model and year the bike was. The tech inspector grudgingly agreed to allow the bike to enter, but made some kind of statement like, "if it wins, i'll disqualify it".

Running up to my 60th, think back to the easier times most AHRMA motocross tracks provided. A quick moto, a walk around the pits to engage and meet other riders, wishful glances at the other machines and work put into them which always abound. However, I refuse to refurbish my 1983 KDX250, with OEM drum brake remember, seek out an AHRMA Post Vintage event, only to run into the same tech inspector.

Think i'll spend my time and effort at the Big-6 GP series, think it's up to 8 GP's now, and aside from being able to choose any KX I have up to 1985 for the vintage or GP class, or pretty much any decade bike run under the same format.

Ouch, was that the door hitting me in the ass?"

The great thing about picking a period for one's self, the bikes never change.
But the times and people do. Thats a downfall which has yet to be put into words in any of the rule books.


Really, you should have known.

So the op does'nt even own an 83 kx and somebody else swallowed a dictionary!

I own an 83 KX125. I'm happy MXM made this a topic. By him bringing this issue to light lessens the chance of me saying something stupid on the subject.

This rule is almost a joke. I remember back in 88 there was this guy riding in the 125 expert class on an roached out 85 CR125 and he won every race he entered by a country mile (at least half a track). He did that with no rear disc when everyone else had them. A good rider is a good rider and they will win regardless if they have a disc brake or not...I did/do not own an 82 or 83 KX, but as I understand it, the disc was so early in development that it worked little better than a drum...just my two cents...

No Mike, the early KX disc considerably better than and more consistent than good drum brake. And I totally agree with you, a brake isn't going to make a difference .I feel being comfortable on you machine does.
What is the procedure to attempt to have a rule change considered in AHRMA?

Yeah, the class is called Pre Modern Support. Race the 83 model there...problem solved. There is a spot for this bike.

Okay, I have never ridden one of these bikes so the information I’m getting on the stopping power of the disc brake is second hand (so I could be wrong). That said; if that brake is even moderately better than a drum then this would be enough to separate two riders of equal skill for sure.

But, I would also argue that the bike was produced at the time with the front disc brake and therefore, I feel it should be allowed to race against other period bikes. AHRMA’s position is confusing in this matter as they allow Rokon’s with front and rear disc brakes (they were introduced in 1974). AHRMA can’t have it both ways. Similarly, there is a distinct difference between cylinder reed valve motors and case reed motors that cannot be overlooked (2 strokes are still case reed valve motors to this day). We are not professional racers, we are just people that raced these bikes 30+ years ago and want to relive that moment, so I would say to AHRMA loosen up a little on the rules and let’s keep it real (i.e. if the technology was available at the time then allow it to be used in competition, it’s that simple).

Ugh, I am on both sides of the issue here and nothing is ever as simple as it seems. The flood gates of allowance for other disc bikes and conditions and technical arguments would undoubtedly be opened but I have one quote and one question.

The quote (For Mike P's statement above as info only, nothing else): 1983 Dirt Bike Magazine 125 Shootout on the KX125 "No questions here, the KX front brake is far superior in feel and in its ability to haul the bike down from speed."

The question: What if the bike was allowed but only if retrofitted with a drum brake? Would that be sufficient? Just throwing it out there as we know this can be accomplished. Simple yes/no answer is ALL I'm looking for.

Just as a side note, the Rokon argument is a good one on the topic and it has already been discussed and I believe this topic is going to be thrown around more in the coming year. I know I will continue to push the topic of this with AHRMA folks. The Pre Modern class is still a viability for the person who really wants to ride his favorite bike of all time in a vintage event and not have to race against bikes from 1990 and up. I'm guessing that class will continue to evolve with rule changes and even perhaps cc designated classes.

So let me get this right?

In 1983 because Kawasaki had a front disc brake they were made to sit out of racing for a year as their bike was ineligible?

Thought not.

Enough said, yeah that's for sure and actually it's not that simple. Are you even actively involved with a vintage organization? If so, you would know some of the challenges as this goes well beyond one bike. This thread now seem really more about hate bait of classification rules than an actual productive case it seems now after reading through. I should have known better..regardless, I am still going to push the logic and flexibility of the topic in the national org as I do get it.

I agree with MXM and would add that because the later 80s bikes had case reed motors there is a difference here and if you don't think there is then you need to ride one then ride a bike with a cylinder base reed valve motor. The case reed is far superior and is still used today on 2 strokes. That disc on the 83 KX may have had better stopping power but the motor could be tuned to go no faster than the competition of the day. Put the 83 against an 87 CR125 and you'll see exactly what I am talking about. Way to many what if's just allow the bike to be raced against other period bikes end of story!

Can you just bolt up a nice front set of KYB or Showa forks with a nice drum brake set up?. Your bike will probably make it through tech inspection if you don't make waves. Your competitors probably will not mind about this bike having a drum set up.

I've done them all and occasionally even holeshot the aforementioned on a no reed 1974 Honda CR125. Seriously, I get all of this and I get what they have tried to do with the rules. Everybody makes sense here, it's about pitching the case and seeing what compromises are there. Shit, I occasionally do tech inspections and you guys have no idea the amount of information you really need to do that correctly...but of course it could all be so simple I guess, lol, you guys don't know vintage guys well. The theory sounds easy, so easy.

And I want to see more KX's on the line, even though I question their survival rate.

Thank you Greg-15!

This is how you get the ball rolling guys.

MXM is correct in my book and the 83 should be allowed with the other 83's. I know in Texas and the TVRC has changed the rule to allow the 84 CR 250 to ride with the other 84's in what is called the GP3 class. Lonestar I believe you go to the AHRMA races if I'm correct and you even have to admit the club is a bit behind the times.

Would a 89 KX125 be allowed to race vintage or would I be thrown to the wolves in the regular 250F class?

I was kidding.i agree with you and mxm that the rule should be kept simple but i did'nt think that the subject was that all that important as he did'nt get turned away from a race or anything.back in the day the rm and yz's never got a front disc til 85? If i remember rightly,and the kx had one in 82 hence a 3 year gap in the rule for those bikes? To start trying to seperate them from the same era get's to complicated imho.the 81/82 rm125 was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread as it won all the shootout's at the time (drum brake and all).
I had an 81 rm125 and it was a great ride but i much prefered my 82 kx125! Noticed it deffo suited me better coming straight off the rm.
Still had my suzi pant's

I will keep my 'vintage" bikes under tarps until the old guard changes.

MXM, you are cracking me up with this "old guard" stuff. You are really making me feel old actually! If the old guard was still around, you'd be having a hard time making it through AHRMA tech inspection on a box stock 1974 CR250 Honda right now. You know, it did come stock with 7.1 inches of front wheel travel. Illegal shit there. Only when the old guard woke the fuck up and realized not everyone had a BSA Gold Star or Rickman Triumph, realized they were missing out on big money and saw some numbers dropping from the events did they open up and start allowing anything past 1974 to compete at any of their events. Since then, there have been a number of classes added over the years up to the point we are at now arguing over 1983 and later model bikes.

I remember back in 1992 at the Steamboat Springs national the biggest stink/protest going on in the 125 Sportsman Expert class when a guy on a Can Am won. Jeff Smith was heading up AHRMA at the time and being a ex factory Canned Ham guy, knew a thing or two about different year model cylinders. Trust me, there will always be some pussy ass bitch behind you willing to protest and ruin everyone's day for some trivial bullshit. Like the goober ten years ago from Colorado who protested my flat slide Mikuni on my clapped out 1980 CR125 after I annihilated his ass on his trick as shit 79 CR125 with Simons forks, trick swingarm and shocks, pipe, big Mikuni. Hell, I still finished third but I ruined his day I guess. My one and only AHRMA race of the year and I get protested by some dick who has been traveling the country getting his ass kicked going broke in search of his National Championship. Funny shit, I told them to not score me or give me points but I paid to race and would be on the line for moto 2 to kick his ass again. And I did...lol. Good times from when I wasn't so old and fat.

I don't have all the answers, but eventually there will be an answer. Hopefully a good one. One glance at the Marty Tripes 100cc Works Revenge class will give you a quick peek into how things can go sideways. No doubt, one of the coolest and most competitive classes on the track at any AHRMA Race but wow at the things guys can do to a bike when given limited rules. What started out as a fun class with guys tricking out 74 model bikes has quickly turned into the 1983 Yamaha YZ100 carbon fiber, titanium , disc braked, later model suspension class with former factory riders at the controls. Neat shit for me to drool over, but somewhere along the way the class took a detour.

Heh,I'm on your side and wouldn't protest you having a disc while I'm lined up on a non disc linkage 1983 CR125, but here is my dilemma. I want to ride my box stock production (limited) 1980 model Mugen Honda. Twin shock, drum brake but they took the stock air cooled CR125 engine from Honda and grafted a watercooled cylinder and head on it. Although I haven't really inquired into it, watercooling eliminates it from the Grand Prix class if I am not mistaken. That bumps me up into your class. I get screwed too.

I agree with Newmann and would add that I still believe that if a bike was produced with a disc brake in that period then it should be allowed. I don't care how fast or slow it is because if I had one I can find a way to make it run
faster and have the best suspension. Now, would I run out and buy one to race...probably not because these bikes are considered rare (I consider these bikes most rare to just rare in this order: 78 KX125/250, 79 KX125/250, 82 KX125
& 83 KX125). The 82& 83 KX250 are somewhat rare but the 125 is the bike to have. However, because parts are somewhat scarce with these bikes, I would not put one on the track. I disagree with AHRMA because all that should matter is
what was produced by the manufacturer in that period and nothing more. I would be willing to bet that if they allowed these bikes you are not going to instantly see a sea of green bike on the starting line because in truth these bikes were not the best in 82 or 83 (even with a disc brake). I will still be riding my 83 CR250. I don't race an Ultima 125, but if I did it would be a
Honda for sure.

Oh and Newmann about that Mugen...I say if the rules allowed this bike in GP it would never see the light of dirt..haha. That's a display bike if ever I saw one (one I wouldn't mind having), This question might sound strange, but do you ever fire it up and take it around the block? Serious sweet and I could do some damage against disc braked bike on this one I'm certain.