bring the SUPER back to Supercross

mx965
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10/19/2014 1:32pm
Seriously this aint 1982 where theres 12ft tall singles to flat and doubles that look like they were built with shovels in supercross.
Mikeyam187
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10/19/2014 1:38pm
MxKing809 wrote:
Dunno man..... That track would never fly today. The riders of today would skim the 'rhythm section', catapult the whole tunnel jump, and race around that...
Dunno man.....

That track would never fly today. The riders of today would skim the 'rhythm section', catapult the whole tunnel jump, and race around that track like it was 100% flat.
MxKing809, what your not able to see is how much everything is square edged on the tracks back then. The tracks now are completely smooth and the jumps have low smooth landings. Put today's riders on late 80's early 90's tracks and they would have a big learning curve to get fast on them!
Mikeyam187
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10/19/2014 1:50pm
Whoever was questioning the power of Johnsons 250...the YZ 250 was the first 250 to hit 40 horsepower and that was in 1985 (stock). The works bikes of that year were about 48hp.
Julian
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10/19/2014 2:06pm
I'd love to see them design something that is incredibly technical but not life threatening if you mess up... I don't know if that is possible...
I'd love to see them design something that is incredibly technical but not life threatening if you mess up... I don't know if that is possible with the amazing skill set of today's riders and how far the technology has come on the bikes, but it would good for both privateers and factory riders if it were possible. Less emphasis on the start and bike setup for the same four sets of obstacles, and more emphasis on rider decision/creativity/skill to get through a variety of different and unique obstacles as fast and cleanly as possible.
yes exactly, nowadays we rarely get to see the top guys make it through a season fighting each other, one, two, three seem to always get hurt and miss races. Tips how to build such tracks are all over youtube, like here http://youtu.be/ZGxi7fQO-is
tracks that take skill, but those with the ability can indeed move up through the field as you see in the above race.
and notice the track, not just giant jump after giant jump like today and no life-threatening jumps that would lead a rider to slamming into the concrete hard ramp of the next upcoming jump, who was the genius track designer anyway who started doing that.....
We just have to get over this current track design style that we have had for so long now and rethink things

The Shop

ATKpilot99
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10/19/2014 2:07pm
moto38 wrote:
Well even if im wrong about that, what about the 450's with ~70 hp and suspension that could support a dump truck? Theres a reason tracls...
Well even if im wrong about that, what about the 450's with ~70 hp and suspension that could support a dump truck? Theres a reason tracls change with time, because the bikes change. Theres no way a race would work on a old-school track with a modern bike. Besides, thar would mean changing EVERYTHING that feeds into supercross- arenacross, practoce tracks, lorettas, etc. Technology has changed.
450s don't have 70 hp
Julian
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10/19/2014 2:14pm
yea we need to get over this idea that the engine power plays any sort of roll in this topic,

It is not about whether a bike has 35 or 45 hp. the racing on the track is the same for either engine hp size
it is about a track design that increases the quality of racing while at the same time is safer.
jeffro503
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10/19/2014 2:22pm
Julian wrote:
yea we need to get over this idea that the engine power plays any sort of roll in this topic, It is not about whether a...
yea we need to get over this idea that the engine power plays any sort of roll in this topic,

It is not about whether a bike has 35 or 45 hp. the racing on the track is the same for either engine hp size
it is about a track design that increases the quality of racing while at the same time is safer.
That will be very hard to do. No matter what you design , the riders will find ways to push the envelope to the border line of destruction. Push to the limit in slow sections and fast sections. But I do see and understand where you are coming from.
moto38
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10/19/2014 2:25pm Edited Date/Time 10/19/2014 2:29pm
Julian wrote:
yea we need to get over this idea that the engine power plays any sort of roll in this topic, It is not about whether a...
yea we need to get over this idea that the engine power plays any sort of roll in this topic,

It is not about whether a bike has 35 or 45 hp. the racing on the track is the same for either engine hp size
it is about a track design that increases the quality of racing while at the same time is safer.
alright, well clearly youre an expert track builder and pro racer because you know exactly how to build a awesome track tgat makes better racing. Even if the tracks are like you envision, theres still going to be a seperation of riders- top 3, top 5, top 10, etc. They could race on flat tracks and I know someone would srill run away with it.

You also gotta understand that a 60 foot double can be waayy safer than a 10 foot table based on how the track and jumps are laid out. Start throwing in random bumps and singles everywhere and the track becomes a nightmare.

Cant we just be happy that supercross is as big as it is today? A lot of yall seem to miss the fact that motocross isnt some huge sport like football, but its been getting a lot more recognition and outside sponsership in recent years.
NV825
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10/19/2014 2:31pm
I completely agree. I don't think the track in the OP's video would hold up to the bikes of today because of suspension technology, but racing is generally better when they are on the ground. I'm a fan of the big wall features that require riders to slow down. I think there should be multiple walls at every track.
Motodave15
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10/19/2014 2:44pm
The thing is though, remember who changed the racing completely


RC,TRAVIS,JAMES

None of these 3 habitually followed mcgraths inside lines around the whole track... These dudes railed the outside and launched stuff

That was the big change in track design.... To change the tracks now you're going to have to deliberately change the Turns/90 degree corners.

you have to make them unrailable...(made that word up).. put some obstacle in the middle of the turn that makes the outside less of a advantage.

Because on a sx track now, you hardly have anybody taking inside lines like in that 90s video posted above... if you force them to the inside line.. they're not going to be able to pull that 4-3-3 combo to the next corner... it now turns into.. 2-3-3-2....maybe a 2-4-4..and that's if they land perfect on the backside of the double...Thus increasing the side by side battles.

But the powers that be, will not look at that option.

I honestly think there may be something in the track designing contracts that ties there hands.... I know for a fact a few year's ago they wanted mandatory triples on each baseline at anahiem. Heard from a insider in the pits who was talking about track designs.
Zracer
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10/19/2014 2:56pm
Totally agree that puss bowl turns need revamped.
Kawaboy14
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10/19/2014 3:26pm
Make the jumps bigger!
Spartacus
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10/19/2014 3:33pm
SX = entertainment for the monster truck crowd and on the Vital forum until MX season starts.
mx836
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10/19/2014 3:39pm
The bikes are way too fast and the guys are way too good to have racing like in the '80s. Sad, but true.
seth505
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10/19/2014 3:42pm
It's annoying when people say that block passes annoy them.
10000hrs
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10/19/2014 3:48pm
Zracer wrote:
Totally agree that puss bowl turns need revamped.
Agree. A few years ago, Pastrana designed an Sx course that had a bilevel inner and out berm bowl corner that seemed to have potential if developed further. It allowed different rhytems for inner and outer entrance and exits.

Never saw it used again.

Also thought 70 mph is way to high speed and we would get better racing ifmthey were on the ground more rather than all following the same jump pattern.
SEE ARE125
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10/19/2014 4:36pm
The problem is tracks are being designed for CLOSER racing, not BETTER racing. Look at it this way, let's remove all the jumps and just make it flat with corners. Not a round track, just flat. You're going to have 20 guys within a few seconds of each other the entire race, with hardly any passing going on, and speeds are going to be ridiculous. That's CLOSE racing, going around nose to tail all night.

Now, let's go to the other extreme and make it have way more jumps, ones that shoot you up, not out. By having more jumps, and making the track super technical, it slows the pace down, which lessens the risk of injury because we don't have guys doing 70mph(literally). The technical track would also provide better racing because riders would be more prone to both little mistakes that would create a passing opportunity, or allow riders to try different lines to make a pass as opposed to everyone doing the same rhythms and following each other around like a train all night.

This is all IMO, though. I just think speeds are getting too fast, and that's where the injuries come from. Wrecking at 20-30mph is way better than ragdolling at 50-60mph.
mx965
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10/19/2014 5:01pm
look, IDK what the hell sx you guys are watching but i like to see fast paced racing with big jumps and high speed sx tracks. SX is calculated racing now a days. Let me just put this out there too..THEY ARE WAY MORE SKILLED..than the riders were 25 years ago...
rcm406
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10/19/2014 6:00pm
level wrote:
The problem with SX is the holeshot. Too much rides on it. I mean look how many talented riders were out there. If Dungey would of...
The problem with SX is the holeshot. Too much rides on it. I mean look how many talented riders were out there. If Dungey would of got the holeshot, he would of won. If Tomac would of got the holeshot, he would of won and so on and so on.

Just so much rides on the start that whoever gets it is pretty much the winner. I don't know what the solution is but the start is like 90% of who is going to win.
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! Laughing They need to have one on one racing or at least have bracket racing like they did at straight rhythm! That's would really tell you who the best SX rider is!
BD233
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10/19/2014 6:15pm
Olson wrote:
I'm with Julian all the way there. I'm pretty sick of the format already. It's like you say, holeshot, jump, jump, jump, don't crash, win. I...
I'm with Julian all the way there. I'm pretty sick of the format already. It's like you say, holeshot, jump, jump, jump, don't crash, win. I usually follow the first couple rounds of the season and then my interest drops off. For outdoors, I'm nailed in front of the TV for the full season. Qatar can't come soon enough.
I feel the same way. Supercross..I might catch 3 or 4 races a year. It's super boring to me. I Won't miss a motocross or GP race though. I understand it takes skills to ride a SX track. It also takes skills to paint a house but that doesn't make it exciting. Jumps and crazy hard rhythm sections are either make it or get hurt. What fun is that?
jeffro503
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10/19/2014 8:21pm
level wrote:
The problem with SX is the holeshot. Too much rides on it. I mean look how many talented riders were out there. If Dungey would of...
The problem with SX is the holeshot. Too much rides on it. I mean look how many talented riders were out there. If Dungey would of got the holeshot, he would of won. If Tomac would of got the holeshot, he would of won and so on and so on.

Just so much rides on the start that whoever gets it is pretty much the winner. I don't know what the solution is but the start is like 90% of who is going to win.
rcm406 wrote:
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! :laugh: They need to have one on one racing or...
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! Laughing They need to have one on one racing or at least have bracket racing like they did at straight rhythm! That's would really tell you who the best SX rider is!
Toronto last year? Starts are important.....but moving up through the pack can be done.

BTW....Rcm , i laid out an apology for you last week. Sorry for coming off like such a jerk.
Julian
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10/20/2014 12:58am
mx836 wrote:
The bikes are way too fast and the guys are way too good to have racing like in the '80s. Sad, but true.
I have a hard time understanding that logic.
Put all the 450f guys on 250f's this coming Anaheim and the race will be exactly the same. The lap times may be half or full second less but that is not important. I imagine someone is going to note they sound differently, ok, so what.... what I am getting at is that the racing would be exactly the same, it makes no difference whether they are on 250's or 450's, everyone remembers Roczen at those MXND races on his 250 racing with the 450's and RV at the USA MXDN some years back on his 250. This ain't NASCAR or road racing, it is MX and the rider is most of the equation.
If you put all the current 450F stars on 250f's and put then on that Bayle/Stanton track from the 90's, the riders would be on the ground more racing and there would be fewer riders with concussions and broken bones due to slamming into the concrete like face of a giant jump after falling 75 feet from the previous oversized jump
hvaughn88
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10/20/2014 4:04am
Can we all just agree to give Travis full control of track design and move on?
rcm406
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10/20/2014 5:32am
level wrote:
The problem with SX is the holeshot. Too much rides on it. I mean look how many talented riders were out there. If Dungey would of...
The problem with SX is the holeshot. Too much rides on it. I mean look how many talented riders were out there. If Dungey would of got the holeshot, he would of won. If Tomac would of got the holeshot, he would of won and so on and so on.

Just so much rides on the start that whoever gets it is pretty much the winner. I don't know what the solution is but the start is like 90% of who is going to win.
rcm406 wrote:
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! :laugh: They need to have one on one racing or...
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! Laughing They need to have one on one racing or at least have bracket racing like they did at straight rhythm! That's would really tell you who the best SX rider is!
jeffro503 wrote:
Toronto last year? Starts are important.....but moving up through the pack can be done. BTW....Rcm , i laid out an apology for you last week. Sorry...
Toronto last year? Starts are important.....but moving up through the pack can be done.

BTW....Rcm , i laid out an apology for you last week. Sorry for coming off like such a jerk.
As the kids say "it's all good" Jeff. As you know, I have my moments too!Dry Wink I actually enjoy the back and forth banter amongst us all! The JS vs. RV crap can get a bit silly at times, but the bottom line is, they're both great and have left their mark on this sport!

In my best Jeff Emig voice! Keys to posting on Vital:
1. Don't take it personal
2. Don't take it personal
3. Don't take it personal
Zracer
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10/20/2014 5:42am
hvaughn88 wrote:
Can we all just agree to give Travis full control of track design and move on?
That works fine for me.
10/20/2014 5:58am
If today's racing was like the 80s race linked in this post then everyone would state that why haven't the size of the jumps and airtime increased because after 30 years of bike and rider progression supercross should look much different in 2015 than 1983...
disbanded
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10/20/2014 6:43am
seth505 wrote:
It's annoying when people say that block passes annoy them.
No shit, I quit reading right there.
10/20/2014 8:01am
level wrote:
The problem with SX is the holeshot. Too much rides on it. I mean look how many talented riders were out there. If Dungey would of...
The problem with SX is the holeshot. Too much rides on it. I mean look how many talented riders were out there. If Dungey would of got the holeshot, he would of won. If Tomac would of got the holeshot, he would of won and so on and so on.

Just so much rides on the start that whoever gets it is pretty much the winner. I don't know what the solution is but the start is like 90% of who is going to win.
rcm406 wrote:
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! :laugh: They need to have one on one racing or...
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! Laughing They need to have one on one racing or at least have bracket racing like they did at straight rhythm! That's would really tell you who the best SX rider is!
How would having a race that isn't Supercross tell you who the best supercross ride is? That's like saying, "lets have a 100m dash to see who the best marathon runner is." I mean, they're both running, right. Pretty much the same thing.
jeffro503
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10/20/2014 9:22am
rcm406 wrote:
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! :laugh: They need to have one on one racing or...
I agree, James would be 10 time SX champ if it wasn't for the damn start! Laughing They need to have one on one racing or at least have bracket racing like they did at straight rhythm! That's would really tell you who the best SX rider is!
jeffro503 wrote:
Toronto last year? Starts are important.....but moving up through the pack can be done. BTW....Rcm , i laid out an apology for you last week. Sorry...
Toronto last year? Starts are important.....but moving up through the pack can be done.

BTW....Rcm , i laid out an apology for you last week. Sorry for coming off like such a jerk.
rcm406 wrote:
As the kids say "it's all good" Jeff. As you know, I have my moments too!:dry: ;) I actually enjoy the back and forth banter amongst...
As the kids say "it's all good" Jeff. As you know, I have my moments too!Dry Wink I actually enjoy the back and forth banter amongst us all! The JS vs. RV crap can get a bit silly at times, but the bottom line is, they're both great and have left their mark on this sport!

In my best Jeff Emig voice! Keys to posting on Vital:
1. Don't take it personal
2. Don't take it personal
3. Don't take it personal
No worries dude. Thought I owed you at least one. Thanks.
Robgvx
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10/20/2014 10:29am
The problem with jumps is that the excitement of watching riders jumping is temporary. Once you have seen someone nail the triple, or whatever, you've seen it.

How often do you go to watch a race and go immediately to the biggest jump on the track? I do. You watch, and you are amazed by what they are doing. But after you have seen 40 guys do the same thing, lap after lap, it loses it's wow factor. So you move on to watch another part of the track.

If the jumps were made bigger the same thing still applies. Take freestyle. We were blown away by Carey Hart's backflip. We were also blown away by Metzger(?) nailing it as a repeatable trick. But now? I couldn't care less about a backflip. If someone landed a triple backflip it would still get old after seeing everyone do it. It's like a comedian telling the same joke over and over.

But it's a Catch 22. The newbies love the jumps. That's what they find amazing about our sport. But I'm pretty sure that they also lose interest after they have become used to it.

But racing is always exciting. Look at the Straight Rhythm recently. Jumps galore, but what inspired all the cheers? Jump combos or overtaking and a close finish?

Jumps are fine, and part of the sport. But designing tracks to allow close racing and passing should be the main goal.




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