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although the racing has been awesome this year with so many different winners and a very interesting points chase,
That said, a 125 2 stroke is not fair against 250f's either.
What I think needs to happen is the FIM, AMA, Motorcycling Australia and all the other governing bodies need to get together and sit down with the manufacturers and work out a capacity where there is some sort of parity. It needs to be world wide so that one mfg can't say that they will pull out of one series because of it otherwise they will pull out of every series and they are not going to do that. I know that would be difficult to get everyone together but it shouldn't be too hard.
At the moment there is too much difference in power between 2 and 4 stroke 250's and also too much difference between 125 and 250f. A 150 is still not really competitive with a 250f so they need to pick somewhere in the middle, 180 - 200cc 2 stroke. I think if they could come up with a displacement that the majority of stakeholders could agree with then it would be a success.
Once the capacity is decided say that in 20xx year, the lites class will be 250f vs xxx 2 stroke, worldwide, pro and amateur alike. It is then up to the mfg's to decide what they want to do with it.
Same thing happened in superbikes. Ducati 1100 engines could not keep up with the 1000 inline 4's so they increase the cc of the twins. As technology advances or changes, so must the rules
even when "the man" stated that he thought the 250Fs and 250 smokers were equal i had to laugh. with a top rider getting fully used to both bikes i think it would be a no-brainer as to which bike they would turn the fastest lap times on consistently..... add to the fact that 99.999999% of the time in both SX and MX the top "key to the race" is "get a good start..... which bike would any rider rather be on in a drag race to the first turn? id take the the bike that makes as much HP and significantly more torque stock, as the one that has 15k in motor work and is 15-17lbs heavier (though i'm guessing its not that much heavier at the factory level).
when the rules excluded the cc for cc rule, most of the teams never talked about any of this and always down played the 2 stroke as an inferior racing platform (which it was with those rules). they sidestepped many of the questions that people were asking as well as facts that were being discussed. i don't really blame the teams for feeding the endless lines of BS...... they were following orders from the factories. the problem was that the factories were not listening to what their customers wanted but instead telling them what they "should want." (minus an orange factory and to some degree...... the blue one)
now that there has been rule changes, factory teams are at a disadvantage because they are being forced to run inferior race engines against privateers that have no such restrictions........ and yes, cc for cc the 2 stroke is superior..... if not ,the factory teams would not be bitching.
if the comment about honda is true and they threatened to pull out (which i have heard several times now), i say let them. when was the last time honda came to the table with something truly innovative in this sport? out of all the companies that build MX bikes, how many people feel that honda is the best at listening to what their buyers want....... or the worst? and remember as quoted above, "the factories pay the teams to sell their product." let them throw their sucker in the dirt and leave the playground. they will still play in europe and guaranteed will come back, in time, to the best MX/SX venues on earth. if not, no worries...... it might open the door for smaller, more open minded companies like TM to get in the game on this side of the pond as well as adding more product choices for paying customers.
do i think that the cc for cc rule is fair....... if i'm being honest, absolutely not. the 2 stroke will always make more power (especially torque) than its same size 4 stroke counterpart. having said that, i do think its about as fair as the old rules of running 125cc smokers against 250Fs and 250 2st against 450Fs. i think that if they truly want to make it fair, they need to come up with new displacement ceilings....... but then why would the factories want to run bikes that cost more to be competitive?
finally, it comes to the last few sentences in the post above that quoted Ben Lane Raceline Pirelli Suzuki team manager;
" At the end of the day manufacturers pay us to sell their product and when people see the four-strokes getting smashed, they won’t buy our bikes. That’s already shown in our motorcycle sales figures this last quarter, and if it keeps going like this we probably won’t be able to go racing next year."
this is where the factories are missing the boat........ as a business owner myself, i have to listen to my clients and bring a product to the table that THEY want...... not one that i want them to want. for the last 10 or so years the factories have done a good job of convincing the general public as to what they should want...... but times are changing. now a factory that up until recently was considered weird and a and a very distant 5th to the Jap "big 4" is today widely considered the current cream of the crop in offroad/mx bikes. why? because they listen to their buyers as well as their top riders.
so instead of the other 4 factories bitching about what is fair, come to the table with products that people want...... do that and they won't have to be so worried about "getting smashed by other bikes and/or not having the funds for race teams next year.
why is that so hard to comprehend?
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The left Europe for a few years and came back , I would call there bluff
Yamaha was first and before we knew it, everyone was riding one. When Honda built one, the amount of wood that was sprouted overnight could have built a house for every person in China.
Suzuki and Kawasaki were late to the game and sales took a hit when all they had were 250 two strokes. They had to develop a 4 banger to keep selling bikes.
So, was a mass conspiracy to make more money by selling you a bike that was expensive to maintain, or did the consumer demand the change?
Yes, the rules changed, but James and Ricky were still winning on 2 strokes vs. 4 strokes.
Privateers were also struggling 20 years ago with the two strokes and sleeping in the van wondering if they would have gas money to get to the next event. Nothing has really changed there.
Bike sales have dropped for many other reasons than the invention of the modern 4 stroke moto bike. Think back to the time when Doug Henry was riding that wicked white and red YZ400. Did we all carry around a super computer in our pocket? Did we know exactly where Michael Jordan was at that moment and what he just ate for dinner? That kind of info is normal now with twitter, instagram and facebook. Times change and what people want change. Boats dont sell like they used too and nothing changed there. It isn't the economy either because its not bad and most Americans are still working just like they did 15 years ago. Why have American kids quit playing baseball? It isn't because they cant afford it. They just want to do other things these days. What did kids do in the early 1900's? My point is that things change and some of us are getting older and not liking that the change is making things go a different way than we would want. Think back to what was said about the Beatles. Long haired hippy druggies. That's kind of a joke when you see how they looked getting off that plane in New York years ago.
I wish Chevy still made the 69 camaro Z 28, but they don't and I put up with driving around in a Truck.
what caused the 4 stroke fiasco: by Rick Seiman (super hunky) retired editor of dirt bike mag
http://articles.superhunky.com/4/106
What do you think I'm told to believe regarding 4-strokes blowing up and what does THAT have to do with this thread? How much experience do you have on a modified 250 2-stroke? Is my comment about what era you grew up in right? How about on a tacky bitchinly prepped track? Like most tracks I ride in So Cal where blue groove was invented?! Why do YOU think AMA doesn't let 250 2-strokes race in the 250 4-stroke class? I stand by my statement above.....which is really just IMHO!
also, 250F out sell 2 strokes at around 10 - 1 overall,
here is the first half sales figures from australia
http://www.fcai.com.au/news/news/2014/7/361/road-motorcycle-sales-stron…
if you look at the top 10 report, there is only one 2 stroke in the top 10, and its the KTM50
Pit Row
Whether it's down to lack of interest, or, too many 'hoops' to jump through / high entry fees etc, I've no idea.
I've felt that, on Luongos part, it was just response to the manufacturers, who finally said NO to him, last year (around June) with his wanting to go to a single class, with 250s as the Premier capacity, and continuation / spreading of the piss poor 'superclass, final moto. Him, just wanting to poke them in the eye, whilst responding to the good (there are a few) people left in the FIM, who brought us the brilliant EMX65, 85, 125 and EMX MX2 categories?
EMX125 started a bit slowly, but has become massive, with, regularly 70 / 80 plus entries trying to qualify - same with EMX MX2, most of the time - these are 'feeder classes' for the World Championsgips. The EMX 300s, got up to about 21 entries in Maggiora (I think), but has now gone back to barely over 10 entries, in Swedem and Finland. KTM seem to not being very supportive of it, which is bizzare. I don't think KTM has paid any ( or, any significant amount of ) money, towards the class, MBR.
It's strange, and disheartening, the turn out for EMX300. There's plenty of interest / participation in 2t series, throughout Europe / England, but it, the class, may have been set up to fail, with Luongo 'going the gouge', as he is so want to do.
Mind you, his sop to Honda - the 150 4t class, started pretty low in nunbers, last year, and it has now grown quite a lot. Logical that, what with Honda offering such a great 'deal' for participants, plus, having an EMX MX2, fully supported ride for the winner, on offer. Honda "pays", Honda "Wins" - yes, that's a deliberate change I've made to the usual Honda line...........
MBR - I think you may be right - the EMX 300 class, may go the way of the Dodo - and that, will be a crying shame.
Theory 1: Can't be done; electrons would cease orbiting around their nucleus and all atomic material would collapse triggering the universe to collapse in on itself which then would create another "big bang" and we'd have to start everything all over again. Best to not even attempt it. Even placing a 175-200cc limit on the two strokes might open a wormhole to another universe which could also be a bad thing.
Theory 2: More small teams might think they'd be able to participate more equitably on their small budgets thereby leading to more participating teams and sponsors. Maybe some smaller manufacturers might be drawn in as well. If it appears to not be working alter the formula until reasonable parity is achieved.
Manufacturers and AMA appear to believe theory 1, I lean more to theory 2.
here's the intro I (C & P) of who he is regarding what he know about (the smoker) link has the whole article a lot of moto &
road racing in the middle, If interested here it is...... http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/future-of-two-strokes.html
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The Future Of Two Strokes And Your Dirt Bike
This is a unique page on my site. It relates to the future of two strokes in general, but ties in with how this will affect you and your choice of dirt bikes. The information here comes from Tim Hickox who will be putting up regular posts using his many years of experience with engine design.
So, if you are interested in what's happening out there in regards to engine design and dirt bikes... read on and be sure to check back as this page is updated!
A quick introduction with Tim... YEAH, IT'S FROM 2009 but nothings changed...
"I can't put a lifetime into a bottle, but: I got my first motorcycle when I was 14. After owning a Greeves, CZ, OSSA, Honda, Suzuki, et al., I had a pretty good idea of what worked and what didn't. Engineering was my destiny. I was service manager for a motorcycle importer/manufacturer; I was Technical Editor of a motorcycle magazine and then Technical Analyst for the Motorcycle Industry Council. I worked for Honda on the early development and testing of their trials machines, and so on. I wanted to stay in the motorcycle industry, but it was going in the "wrong" direction for me (pushing everything up-market to maintain dollar-volume as unit-volume fell). So I went into aerospace. I worked on the Space Shuttle and on many earth-observation satellites. I am now writing a book (philosophy) and working on a unique vehicle (with a two-stroke engine!) that can get 300-mpg at 65-mph."
Tim Hickox
http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/future-of-two-strokes.html
whoops didn't mean to do that
Plenty of choices of 250 two stroke machinery in Aus, with KTM, Husqvarna, TM, Yamaha and more still offering the option and there is no shortage of brand new and second hand 250 two strokes available.
Yet the number of people choosing to buy and ride the 250 two stroke is still low out side of the national scene!
Think that says a lot about what what bikes the consumer really wants!
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