Equal Displacement Pro Racing.....Has the time come?

rebus wrote:

I agree with Motocross Action, too. Why wouldn't the manufactures want to prove how good their four strokes are? It would have been nice if they...

I agree with Motocross Action, too. Why wouldn't the manufactures want to prove how good their four strokes are?

It would have been nice if they would have posted actual lap times between the two though.

OW38B wrote:

They are afraid of something......just not sure what that is? But it's there.

hillbilly wrote:

A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely. The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t...

A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely.

The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t riders are doing sections before the 450 guys get them down.

No way a 2st rider survives the season.

Aussie_power_sports wrote:

Australia has been doing it for the last 2 years with good success. With a 2 stroke taking out the pro lites class at the 1st...

Australia has been doing it for the last 2 years with good success. With a 2 stroke taking out the pro lites class at the 1st round last month.

I think there was roughly 17 two strokes in the field

Gringoe wrote:

In relation to oz, Here we have the top 20 in 250 class are all on factory teams. So no matter what the top 20 finishers...

In relation to oz,

Here we have the top 20 in 250 class are all on factory teams. So no matter what the top 20 finishers are most likely going to the gate on a 4 stroke no matter what. IMO 0 factory teams would run two strokes, 0.

Before the rule even got passed (if it ever gets that far) Yamaha and ktm (the only two with bikes) would build up a couple of bikes give them to there riders and ask which they'd rather ride. 100% of top level 250f riders will tell you a factory level 250 two stroke would be as good as a factory 250f on probably 3 or 4 out of the 12 tracks through the year.

Now let's talk about something else about riding a two stroke no one seems to mention, they are HARD to ride. These factory 250fs are incredible. They are raising the sheer speed level of this sport the way they handle and how fast they are. Someone like bagget or tomac can push these bikes to amazing limits and over ride them like pit bikes seemingly over some of the roughest tracks in the world. Don't get me wrong the same can be done to some extent on a 250t, but for 30+2 wide open on a beat ass track id be willing to say the 250f would get the nod from all the factories.




OK, now that leaves the bottom 20. I don't know if anyone has ever noticed but there is a BIG difference between the top guys and the privateers. Are those guys going to hop on a 250 two stroke and magically find this 30 seconds or minute over a Moto to beat the factory guys? NO. Are ALL of those bottom going to get on a 250 two stroke? NO! I doubt more than 5 to ten would have the balls to ride one. But the guys that did, would have a faster, cheaper, competitive bike.



What if I told you there is 20 guys every year that has the talent and the work ethic to try to chase there dream on a national level, but are forced onto a smaller level because they don't have the money to put into a 250f to be competitive and to actually practice on one (not just race 1 bike). And to say "ride 450 class" is not the answer. 450s are not the answer in general and another discussion completely. I know dc will say it's not the "feeder" class anymore and that's fine, but let me tell you one thing, Loretta's lynns is not the answer to what was the 125 class. 6 Motos spanned over 5 days should not determine your outcome for pros. And not everyone has the money to race the am nationals back and forth across the country.

What if 1 out of that 20 is a Weston peick? We owe it to the backbone of this sport to let these guys chase there dreams and to try to race the nationals and to make it as affordable as possible for the privateer. And to anyone that says all the good riders have rides already that's bs there are kids on and off all the time that get hurt or have money trouble and get passed over for any support late in their am career and are left wondering what to do. Let's let them give it a go. The top 10 will still be the same teams it has always been. I don't understand what the hold up on this rule is. If it's the factories scared of people buying two strokes.....shame on you for hampering something that could make racing more exciting and give it some diversity.

I will say I agree with DC on 99% of what he says and does. But mx sports in general is dropping the ball on bringing more excitement to the races and promoting the sport by not having cc for cc.

Yes I know he doesn't run the nationals really.

And that he doesn't even really control the national series much at all under mxsports (not his job)

If it's the factories saying no and you (mx sports) accept that and agree with it than I guess we will never agree on this issue.

Little birdy told me there will be a couple two strokes only riders who should consistently make the Motos and be near the top 20 in the races they attend this year. Let's see how much love they get.



Discuss

VET176 wrote:

Not a 100% sure, but hasn't a smoker won the NZ MX2 class 3 out of the last 4 years?

Gringoe wrote:

In relation to oz, Here we have the top 20 in 250 class are all on factory teams. So no matter what the top 20 finishers...

In relation to oz,

Here we have the top 20 in 250 class are all on factory teams. So no matter what the top 20 finishers are most likely going to the gate on a 4 stroke no matter what. IMO 0 factory teams would run two strokes, 0.

Before the rule even got passed (if it ever gets that far) Yamaha and ktm (the only two with bikes) would build up a couple of bikes give them to there riders and ask which they'd rather ride. 100% of top level 250f riders will tell you a factory level 250 two stroke would be as good as a factory 250f on probably 3 or 4 out of the 12 tracks through the year.

Now let's talk about something else about riding a two stroke no one seems to mention, they are HARD to ride. These factory 250fs are incredible. They are raising the sheer speed level of this sport the way they handle and how fast they are. Someone like bagget or tomac can push these bikes to amazing limits and over ride them like pit bikes seemingly over some of the roughest tracks in the world. Don't get me wrong the same can be done to some extent on a 250t, but for 30+2 wide open on a beat ass track id be willing to say the 250f would get the nod from all the factories.




OK, now that leaves the bottom 20. I don't know if anyone has ever noticed but there is a BIG difference between the top guys and the privateers. Are those guys going to hop on a 250 two stroke and magically find this 30 seconds or minute over a Moto to beat the factory guys? NO. Are ALL of those bottom going to get on a 250 two stroke? NO! I doubt more than 5 to ten would have the balls to ride one. But the guys that did, would have a faster, cheaper, competitive bike.



What if I told you there is 20 guys every year that has the talent and the work ethic to try to chase there dream on a national level, but are forced onto a smaller level because they don't have the money to put into a 250f to be competitive and to actually practice on one (not just race 1 bike). And to say "ride 450 class" is not the answer. 450s are not the answer in general and another discussion completely. I know dc will say it's not the "feeder" class anymore and that's fine, but let me tell you one thing, Loretta's lynns is not the answer to what was the 125 class. 6 Motos spanned over 5 days should not determine your outcome for pros. And not everyone has the money to race the am nationals back and forth across the country.

What if 1 out of that 20 is a Weston peick? We owe it to the backbone of this sport to let these guys chase there dreams and to try to race the nationals and to make it as affordable as possible for the privateer. And to anyone that says all the good riders have rides already that's bs there are kids on and off all the time that get hurt or have money trouble and get passed over for any support late in their am career and are left wondering what to do. Let's let them give it a go. The top 10 will still be the same teams it has always been. I don't understand what the hold up on this rule is. If it's the factories scared of people buying two strokes.....shame on you for hampering something that could make racing more exciting and give it some diversity.

I will say I agree with DC on 99% of what he says and does. But mx sports in general is dropping the ball on bringing more excitement to the races and promoting the sport by not having cc for cc.

Yes I know he doesn't run the nationals really.

And that he doesn't even really control the national series much at all under mxsports (not his job)

If it's the factories saying no and you (mx sports) accept that and agree with it than I guess we will never agree on this issue.

Little birdy told me there will be a couple two strokes only riders who should consistently make the Motos and be near the top 20 in the races they attend this year. Let's see how much love they get.



Discuss

scott_nz wrote:

have you been watching Australian motoross at all lately? Kawasaki have no factory lites team anymore, SUzuki are running 2 bikes, so are yamaha in four...

have you been watching Australian motoross at all lately?

Kawasaki have no factory lites team anymore, SUzuki are running 2 bikes, so are yamaha in four strokes, and HOnda has 1 rider who is inured, KTM has farmed out all its lites rides (most on 2 strokes, and in Vans) HUsqy and TM is also supporting a couple of riders on 2 strokes, there is no where near 20 "factory" rides in the 250 class in australia, because i would suggest there is maybe 2-3 riders making a living racing the 250's in australia,

the rest of what you say is true tho, it is much cheaper for a average guy to race a 2 stroke for a year, unfortuantly tho, over half the field at Round 1 were two strokes,

the masses buy four strokes tho, (as much as the two stroke teleban like to say they dont want to)

here are the 10 biggest selling MX bikes for the first quarter in australia,

Yamaha YZ250F 360 179 101.1%
Yamaha YZ450F 210 175 20.0%
Kawasaki KX250F 185 253 -26.9%
Kawasaki KX450F 172 184 -6.5%
KTM 50SX 165 134 23.1%
Honda CRF450R 131 297 -55.9%
Honda CRF250R 130 154 -15.6%
Suzuki RM-Z250 122 228 -46.5%
KTM 450SX 111 86 29.1%
Suzuki RM-Z450 108 172 -37.2

only one 2 stroke in the top to, and its a 50cc bike, and in the Enduro list there is only 1 2 stroke as well,

full list here on motorcycle sales figures for the 1st quarter in australia,

http://www.fcai.com.au/news/news/all/all/348/2013-motorcycle-sales

rebus wrote:

I agree with Motocross Action, too. Why wouldn't the manufactures want to prove how good their four strokes are? It would have been nice if they...

I agree with Motocross Action, too. Why wouldn't the manufactures want to prove how good their four strokes are?

It would have been nice if they would have posted actual lap times between the two though.

OW38B wrote:

They are afraid of something......just not sure what that is? But it's there.

Gringoe wrote:

In relation to oz, Here we have the top 20 in 250 class are all on factory teams. So no matter what the top 20 finishers...

In relation to oz,

Here we have the top 20 in 250 class are all on factory teams. So no matter what the top 20 finishers are most likely going to the gate on a 4 stroke no matter what. IMO 0 factory teams would run two strokes, 0.

Before the rule even got passed (if it ever gets that far) Yamaha and ktm (the only two with bikes) would build up a couple of bikes give them to there riders and ask which they'd rather ride. 100% of top level 250f riders will tell you a factory level 250 two stroke would be as good as a factory 250f on probably 3 or 4 out of the 12 tracks through the year.

Now let's talk about something else about riding a two stroke no one seems to mention, they are HARD to ride. These factory 250fs are incredible. They are raising the sheer speed level of this sport the way they handle and how fast they are. Someone like bagget or tomac can push these bikes to amazing limits and over ride them like pit bikes seemingly over some of the roughest tracks in the world. Don't get me wrong the same can be done to some extent on a 250t, but for 30+2 wide open on a beat ass track id be willing to say the 250f would get the nod from all the factories.




OK, now that leaves the bottom 20. I don't know if anyone has ever noticed but there is a BIG difference between the top guys and the privateers. Are those guys going to hop on a 250 two stroke and magically find this 30 seconds or minute over a Moto to beat the factory guys? NO. Are ALL of those bottom going to get on a 250 two stroke? NO! I doubt more than 5 to ten would have the balls to ride one. But the guys that did, would have a faster, cheaper, competitive bike.



What if I told you there is 20 guys every year that has the talent and the work ethic to try to chase there dream on a national level, but are forced onto a smaller level because they don't have the money to put into a 250f to be competitive and to actually practice on one (not just race 1 bike). And to say "ride 450 class" is not the answer. 450s are not the answer in general and another discussion completely. I know dc will say it's not the "feeder" class anymore and that's fine, but let me tell you one thing, Loretta's lynns is not the answer to what was the 125 class. 6 Motos spanned over 5 days should not determine your outcome for pros. And not everyone has the money to race the am nationals back and forth across the country.

What if 1 out of that 20 is a Weston peick? We owe it to the backbone of this sport to let these guys chase there dreams and to try to race the nationals and to make it as affordable as possible for the privateer. And to anyone that says all the good riders have rides already that's bs there are kids on and off all the time that get hurt or have money trouble and get passed over for any support late in their am career and are left wondering what to do. Let's let them give it a go. The top 10 will still be the same teams it has always been. I don't understand what the hold up on this rule is. If it's the factories scared of people buying two strokes.....shame on you for hampering something that could make racing more exciting and give it some diversity.

I will say I agree with DC on 99% of what he says and does. But mx sports in general is dropping the ball on bringing more excitement to the races and promoting the sport by not having cc for cc.

Yes I know he doesn't run the nationals really.

And that he doesn't even really control the national series much at all under mxsports (not his job)

If it's the factories saying no and you (mx sports) accept that and agree with it than I guess we will never agree on this issue.

Little birdy told me there will be a couple two strokes only riders who should consistently make the Motos and be near the top 20 in the races they attend this year. Let's see how much love they get.



Discuss

jeffro503 wrote:

I think it's time for sure. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.....and both are extremely competitive with one another. Bottom line here is.....the big 4...

I think it's time for sure. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.....and both are extremely competitive with one another.

Bottom line here is.....the big 4 Japan bike companies " want " you to keep buying the 4 strokes.....why?.....because it costs you more money to fix them when they implode......putting more money in their pocket. More money in the bike shops pocket as well since you can't work on most of these new bikes without some engineering degree.

I sometimes wonder if we will ever get to see the 2 strokes back in pro racing? I mean CC to CC.........not a 250cc bike going against a bunch of hopped up 450 4 strokes either.

keyboardjockey750 wrote:

Hahaha they are afraid that four stroke sales will plummet. Really don't understand why anyone would buy a four stroke. If you are an up an...

Hahaha they are afraid that four stroke sales will plummet. Really don't understand why anyone would buy a four stroke.

If you are an up an coming super star I completely understand why you would ride one, but you wouldn't have to buy it. It'll be given to you.

If someone isn't giving you bikes, no reason to waste money on a four stroke. Have fun!

Derpin' DJ wrote:

Check Scott_NZ's post. Equal displacement hasn't effected 250F sales in Australia

Gringoe wrote:

In relation to oz, Here we have the top 20 in 250 class are all on factory teams. So no matter what the top 20 finishers...

In relation to oz,

Here we have the top 20 in 250 class are all on factory teams. So no matter what the top 20 finishers are most likely going to the gate on a 4 stroke no matter what. IMO 0 factory teams would run two strokes, 0.

Before the rule even got passed (if it ever gets that far) Yamaha and ktm (the only two with bikes) would build up a couple of bikes give them to there riders and ask which they'd rather ride. 100% of top level 250f riders will tell you a factory level 250 two stroke would be as good as a factory 250f on probably 3 or 4 out of the 12 tracks through the year.

Now let's talk about something else about riding a two stroke no one seems to mention, they are HARD to ride. These factory 250fs are incredible. They are raising the sheer speed level of this sport the way they handle and how fast they are. Someone like bagget or tomac can push these bikes to amazing limits and over ride them like pit bikes seemingly over some of the roughest tracks in the world. Don't get me wrong the same can be done to some extent on a 250t, but for 30+2 wide open on a beat ass track id be willing to say the 250f would get the nod from all the factories.




OK, now that leaves the bottom 20. I don't know if anyone has ever noticed but there is a BIG difference between the top guys and the privateers. Are those guys going to hop on a 250 two stroke and magically find this 30 seconds or minute over a Moto to beat the factory guys? NO. Are ALL of those bottom going to get on a 250 two stroke? NO! I doubt more than 5 to ten would have the balls to ride one. But the guys that did, would have a faster, cheaper, competitive bike.



What if I told you there is 20 guys every year that has the talent and the work ethic to try to chase there dream on a national level, but are forced onto a smaller level because they don't have the money to put into a 250f to be competitive and to actually practice on one (not just race 1 bike). And to say "ride 450 class" is not the answer. 450s are not the answer in general and another discussion completely. I know dc will say it's not the "feeder" class anymore and that's fine, but let me tell you one thing, Loretta's lynns is not the answer to what was the 125 class. 6 Motos spanned over 5 days should not determine your outcome for pros. And not everyone has the money to race the am nationals back and forth across the country.

What if 1 out of that 20 is a Weston peick? We owe it to the backbone of this sport to let these guys chase there dreams and to try to race the nationals and to make it as affordable as possible for the privateer. And to anyone that says all the good riders have rides already that's bs there are kids on and off all the time that get hurt or have money trouble and get passed over for any support late in their am career and are left wondering what to do. Let's let them give it a go. The top 10 will still be the same teams it has always been. I don't understand what the hold up on this rule is. If it's the factories scared of people buying two strokes.....shame on you for hampering something that could make racing more exciting and give it some diversity.

I will say I agree with DC on 99% of what he says and does. But mx sports in general is dropping the ball on bringing more excitement to the races and promoting the sport by not having cc for cc.

Yes I know he doesn't run the nationals really.

And that he doesn't even really control the national series much at all under mxsports (not his job)

If it's the factories saying no and you (mx sports) accept that and agree with it than I guess we will never agree on this issue.

Little birdy told me there will be a couple two strokes only riders who should consistently make the Motos and be near the top 20 in the races they attend this year. Let's see how much love they get.



Discuss

Aussie_power_sports wrote:

Wrong wrong wrong, heaps of guys in the top 20 are privateers, maybe 5 are on "factory rides" they are really satellite teams at best compared...

Wrong wrong wrong, heaps of guys in the top 20 are privateers, maybe 5 are on "factory rides" they are really satellite teams at best compared to America.

Off the top of my head there are three 250 2 strokes in top 10 in nationals, one being full blown privateer

The allowing of two strokes has helped more privateers race

hillbilly wrote:

A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely. The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t...

A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely.

The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t riders are doing sections before the 450 guys get them down.

No way a 2st rider survives the season.

jeffro503 wrote:

I think it's time for sure. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.....and both are extremely competitive with one another. Bottom line here is.....the big 4...

I think it's time for sure. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.....and both are extremely competitive with one another.

Bottom line here is.....the big 4 Japan bike companies " want " you to keep buying the 4 strokes.....why?.....because it costs you more money to fix them when they implode......putting more money in their pocket. More money in the bike shops pocket as well since you can't work on most of these new bikes without some engineering degree.

I sometimes wonder if we will ever get to see the 2 strokes back in pro racing? I mean CC to CC.........not a 250cc bike going against a bunch of hopped up 450 4 strokes either.

BobPA wrote:

An engineering degree to work on a simple call engine? Sounds to me like you are being a little biased. Modern four strokes are easy to...

An engineering degree to work on a simple call engine? Sounds to me like you are being a little biased. Modern four strokes are easy to work on....get over it

OW38B wrote:

Bob my friend, Modern four strokes with EFI and such are many things......."easy to work on" is not one of them. Very funny.