Clean-up on aisle DC

mynewcr250 wrote:

scott_nz: 10 to 1? i see these claims all the time, yet i see no proof. show us where you get these figures. mercedes probably sells...

scott_nz: 10 to 1? i see these claims all the time, yet i see no proof. show us where you get these figures. mercedes probably sells 10 to 1 c-class vs s-class yet they dont cut the highline vehicles out just because of sales. there is a market for everything, and they would sell the same 2007 or whatever 2 strokes even to this day almost unchanged just like yamaha does, they simply dont want to because if you give someone a choice of a simple 2 stroke or a complicated 4 stroke, some guys will take the 2 stroke, and thats not good in the long run.

2b: i feel for you not having an "updated" jap choice really, but since youre not at the pro level, you dont really need a brand new model year 2 stroke to be competitive. you can get a honda as new as 07, a suzuki as new as 12, a yam/ktm as new as 13, a husky/tm as new as 14. there are choices out there, you just have a biased view on whats "good enough" for you.

besides, those rules dont apply to you. btw, its not "the manufacturers wont produce them because of America's unfair displacement rule", the rules are they way they are because thats how the MFGs WANT it. read the 250 vs 250 thread. its all there, out in the light from Coombs himself, the rules are catered to the MFGs because the MFGs want it that way. its an attempt to keep the MFGs involved...dont blame Americas unfair displacement rule, blame the very OEM you want to start making a bike that asked to kill them in the first place. nothing like supporting the 2 stroke movement by buying a bike from the very companies that slit the throat of them.

scott_nz wrote:

how on earth does it effect your racing because the USA Nationals do not allow 250 2 strokes in the 250 class, all racing in NZ...

how on earth does it effect your racing because the USA Nationals do not allow 250 2 strokes in the 250 class, all racing in NZ is cc to cc? their were brand new RM250's for sale up till the start of the year here,

the reason kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda do not sell 250 2 strokes, or yamaha does not spend any money on theirs is because when they made both models, they sold 10 x 250F's to one 250 2 stroke, and since dirt bike sales world wide have halved since 2007, (although this year starting to show some life) the commercial decision was to keep the model that sold,

DC wrote:

Burn, we only ran three WMX races because there was no time in the schedule for anything else. And we run two-strokes at every other level...

Burn, we only ran three WMX races because there was no time in the schedule for anything else. And we run two-strokes at every other level, 250 against 250, and even have a two-strokes-only class for Loretta Lynn's.
Everyone thinks a change would help the privateers, and it probably would at first, but only the ones who ride orange or blue. All of other ones would have to race not only factory-supported 250Fs, but the modified 250 two-strokes that their fellow privateers are running. And then it's likely that a good team, or even a factory team, would go all-in with a two-stroke squad that has both 250cc smokers and full-factory support, and there goes the balance of power that is what keeps all five OEMs active, engaged and invested in this country's MX and SX.
I understand it worked out differently in Canada and Australia, but those series are much smaller and with much less OEM support than the US, so there was little to lose... And didn't one of the King brothers, in his forties, win the 250 title on a YZ250 a year or two again?
I appreciate the feedback and passionate opinions here. I have passion for this too. I just have a different opinion and concern of what might actually happen and how it might effect professional racing. That doesn't make me evil, but it does make me an easy target for your frustration. I get that; it comes with the territory.

DC
MX Sports

Radical wrote:

Hi DC, Thanks for all you're doing for our sport. What are your thoughts on this? I believe the end result will be great for manufacturers...

Hi DC,

Thanks for all you're doing for our sport.

What are your thoughts on this?

I believe the end result will be great for manufacturers (new bike sales), and for our sport in general.

In Indy car racing, they control the safety of the racers by reducing maximum displacement every few years as needed.
When the speed of the cars reaches a certain threshold they reduce maximum displacement.

In MX, we increased maximum displacement, and while I can't say there are more injuries today than in the past, I can say that they are far more intense. Faster speeds = More intense crashes.

I believe it's time in MX to equalize the speeds.

While were at it, we can bring back the 2 strokes, allow room for OEMs and aftermarket companies to innovate, while allowing time for everyone involved to make the adjustments.

Here's my plan without going into too much detail:

Change the classes to:
125 2 stroke vs 200 4 stroke
250 2 stroke vs 350 4 stroke

Transition Schedule

Provide 2 years advanced notice of rule change, then provide the following transition period.

During a period of 2 years for pro and 5 years for amateur, allow older 250F and 450F 4 strokes to race with a rev limiter limiting maximum RPMs. Apart from limiting RPM's, bikes can be modified at will. New bikes under the new displacement rules are free to race without RPM limits.

In 2-3 years, there will be an increase in NEW bike sales as lower displacement 4 strokes, plus new 2 strokes hit the market. Fans will want these new bikes being raced by the pros.

This gives the factories some time to retool, and keeps the cost down for amateurs who have recently purchased bikes.
It also brings the 125 back as the standard for the Lites class and provides the right stepping stone from the 85 class.

It also reduces the speed slightly which in my opinion is necessary to keep the riders safe.

We should lower 4 stroke displacement instead of allowing higher displacement 2 strokes. Why?
1) Because it could tip the balance back to 2 strokes which isn't MY intention.
2) Because the 125 and 250 2 strokes should be the baseline for the amount of power in each class. This would automatically bring the speeds down slightly for the next 5 years. After that it may be necessary to follow Indy Car racing's lead and lower maximum displacements.


Pro's
* New bike sales increase.
* Increase in aftermarket parts for the new bikes.
* Speeds brought down slightly
* Cost to race competitively in Amateur and Semi-pro reduced.
* Room for Innovation.
* Transition is not expensive for riders.
* Amateur racing numbers will increase as more families can afford to race.

I believe this will work.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Please tell me your thoughts.

Have a great day!
Radical

500guy wrote:

What the fuck? The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning...

What the fuck?

The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning Vital for ideas on how to cause himself problems.

Radical wrote:

Hi DC, Thanks for all you're doing for our sport. What are your thoughts on this? I believe the end result will be great for manufacturers...

Hi DC,

Thanks for all you're doing for our sport.

What are your thoughts on this?

I believe the end result will be great for manufacturers (new bike sales), and for our sport in general.

In Indy car racing, they control the safety of the racers by reducing maximum displacement every few years as needed.
When the speed of the cars reaches a certain threshold they reduce maximum displacement.

In MX, we increased maximum displacement, and while I can't say there are more injuries today than in the past, I can say that they are far more intense. Faster speeds = More intense crashes.

I believe it's time in MX to equalize the speeds.

While were at it, we can bring back the 2 strokes, allow room for OEMs and aftermarket companies to innovate, while allowing time for everyone involved to make the adjustments.

Here's my plan without going into too much detail:

Change the classes to:
125 2 stroke vs 200 4 stroke
250 2 stroke vs 350 4 stroke

Transition Schedule

Provide 2 years advanced notice of rule change, then provide the following transition period.

During a period of 2 years for pro and 5 years for amateur, allow older 250F and 450F 4 strokes to race with a rev limiter limiting maximum RPMs. Apart from limiting RPM's, bikes can be modified at will. New bikes under the new displacement rules are free to race without RPM limits.

In 2-3 years, there will be an increase in NEW bike sales as lower displacement 4 strokes, plus new 2 strokes hit the market. Fans will want these new bikes being raced by the pros.

This gives the factories some time to retool, and keeps the cost down for amateurs who have recently purchased bikes.
It also brings the 125 back as the standard for the Lites class and provides the right stepping stone from the 85 class.

It also reduces the speed slightly which in my opinion is necessary to keep the riders safe.

We should lower 4 stroke displacement instead of allowing higher displacement 2 strokes. Why?
1) Because it could tip the balance back to 2 strokes which isn't MY intention.
2) Because the 125 and 250 2 strokes should be the baseline for the amount of power in each class. This would automatically bring the speeds down slightly for the next 5 years. After that it may be necessary to follow Indy Car racing's lead and lower maximum displacements.


Pro's
* New bike sales increase.
* Increase in aftermarket parts for the new bikes.
* Speeds brought down slightly
* Cost to race competitively in Amateur and Semi-pro reduced.
* Room for Innovation.
* Transition is not expensive for riders.
* Amateur racing numbers will increase as more families can afford to race.

I believe this will work.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Please tell me your thoughts.

Have a great day!
Radical

JM485 wrote:

This is probably the best solution I have seen yet. Hopefully DC takes a look and takes it into consideration. I respect his opinion greatly, and...

This is probably the best solution I have seen yet. Hopefully DC takes a look and takes it into consideration. I respect his opinion greatly, and I'm sure he knows more about the inner workings of the sport than any one of us, but I think this deserves some thought.

vanillaice782 wrote:

If VitalMx made the rules they would all be forced to ride 85 CR 250s.

GuyB wrote:

You mean if some Vital MX forum members made the rules...

500guy wrote:

What the fuck? The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning...

What the fuck?

The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning Vital for ideas on how to cause himself problems.

jmar wrote:

But Jay!

The pros need to ride what the week end moto enthusiast ride.

You just don't get it.

vanillaice782 wrote:

If VitalMx made the rules they would all be forced to ride 85 CR 250s.

GuyB wrote:

You mean if some Vital MX forum members made the rules...

manering wrote:

This attitude is the same problem we have with mx, only worrying about the top, We (members) are the forum, without us there's nothing, just another...

This attitude is the same problem we have with mx, only worrying about the top, We (members) are the forum, without us there's nothing, just another mx website with sponsored views and ideas.

500guy wrote:

What the fuck? The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning...

What the fuck?

The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning Vital for ideas on how to cause himself problems.

500guy wrote:

What the fuck? The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning...

What the fuck?

The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning Vital for ideas on how to cause himself problems.

JM485 wrote:

So that means we aren't allowed to give ideas or voice opinions? This is a forum, that's what we do.

Mxcrayz wrote:

500dude doesn't have a clue man, just ignore him. Just a retarded troll.

GuyB wrote:

Says the guy who signed up yesterday, and had the same IP address as burn1986, and burn2013.

Some people are slow learners.

Mxcrayz wrote:

500dude doesn't have a clue man, just ignore him. Just a retarded troll.

GuyB wrote:

Says the guy who signed up yesterday, and had the same IP address as burn1986, and burn2013.

Some people are slow learners.

ocscottie wrote:

...and then there is option C: take your time out like a man!

500guy wrote:

What the fuck? The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning...

What the fuck?

The decision has been made, What's so hard to figure out that for right now the rules are not changing. DC isn't scanning Vital for ideas on how to cause himself problems.

jmar wrote:

But Jay!

The pros need to ride what the week end moto enthusiast ride.

You just don't get it.

newmann wrote:

Well jmar, why is it that the Japanese mfg's. think that the weekend moto enthusiast needs to ride what the James Stewart's ride? MX has always...

Well jmar, why is it that the Japanese mfg's. think that the weekend moto enthusiast needs to ride what the James Stewart's ride?

MX has always been more of a participant sport than most any other form of motorsport. The fact that the oems are pricing themselves out of the reach of new riders isn't doing the sport any favors. Killing off the 125 class was beyond stupid as was double displacement advantage just so they could sell overpriced parts munchers. Even Mitch Payton said it. But then again, what does he know.....

How many people out there are lining up to buy a blown up 250F or even a used one so their kid will have something to ride? Not the same as fixing up a 125 anymore.