What we need is a exhaust company to encourage loud 4-strokes

queen of spodes 10/7/2013 6:25pm
10/7/2013 6:25pm
Oh and you bozos insisting that loud bikes help you know when to shift.. You going to let a deaf girl and women's MX champ show you up like that? Ashley rocks out without the noise and if she can do it, you can too.
GeorgiePorgie 10/7/2013 6:27pm
10/7/2013 6:27pm Edited Date/Time 10/7/2013 6:28pm
I feel as though this pipe will be affixed to all bikes with metal mulisha graphics. (Possibly stolen bikes, but not always the case.)

Can't blame them for marketing to a different type of rider....

And to hell with the loudness......make one that vibrates like a mo-fo. Womens class will be chock-full.
The Rock
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The Rock 10/7/2013 8:01pm
10/7/2013 8:01pm Edited Date/Time 10/7/2013 8:29pm
Torco1 wrote:
Nobody is making you buy the louder exhaust and I'm pretty sure both Pro Circuit and FMF make inserts that quiet the bikes down. Pretty simple...
Nobody is making you buy the louder exhaust and I'm pretty sure both Pro Circuit and FMF make inserts that quiet the bikes down. Pretty simple solution really, if you live somewhere where noise is a concern, buy a system that offers less noise. Here in SoCal noise isn't an issue on tracks......yet anyway. So we have the luxury of picking from a larger pool of exhaust systems.
This thread is about PC producing shorter mufflers which are louder since they have less packing volume. When you put an insert in the new shorter cans (if they even support this) they will still be loud. Anyway why would anyone who is brain dead enough to buy a louder exhaust be concerned with an insert?

Mitch has been a supporter of sound testing in the Nationals (MX Sports' sound test program pales in comparison to what goes down in SX every race) and I applaud Mitch for this position but have to choice than to give him a FAIL for his decision to take our sport back to the 20th century with these new louder exhausts.
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Dave927 10/7/2013 8:22pm
10/7/2013 8:22pm Edited Date/Time 10/7/2013 8:23pm
queen of spodes wrote:
Oh and you bozos insisting that loud bikes help you know when to shift.. You going to let a deaf girl and women's MX champ show...
Oh and you bozos insisting that loud bikes help you know when to shift.. You going to let a deaf girl and women's MX champ show you up like that? Ashley rocks out without the noise and if she can do it, you can too.
BTW, I'm 85-90% deaf (right ear-left ear) and I STILL think the 4strokes are loud

I most of the time shift by how much the bike is vibrating, i never really know what gear i'm in cause i go by "feel" (vibration), if im not going forward like i think i should be, i simply downshift to get the bike to "sing" back up top, if that makes sense?Blink True story

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The Rock
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The Rock 10/7/2013 8:28pm
10/7/2013 8:28pm
Dave927 wrote:
What ever happened to the DB Dawgs? My dad made one for my 250f and it was very noticeably quieter and I BARELY noticed the slight...
What ever happened to the DB Dawgs? My dad made one for my 250f and it was very noticeably quieter and I BARELY noticed the slight drop in power. They're cheap and universal

I help run a private track in michigan and we too have lost alot of riding days due to noise. We used to be able to ride about 22 rides a year, after going to court with neighbors, we are now down to 5 ride days a year Sad

The track has been there since the early 70's

I still have my 250f although it's blown up, but I now ride my 125 and with that, you can not hear me in the back section of the track whereas my 4stroker could easily be heard.

I plan on getting our group together for a little pow wow about possibly buying a shitload of DB Dawgs and make it manditory that they use them, they could get their own or if they don't have one, I'll sell them one for 50 bucks. Either that or they can join a different club. Time to get tough on noise, I consider my (our) track a goldmine and want to keep using it without worries
The DB Dawgs were a sideline for Justin Moore who owns the parent company. Justin's main business is automotive accessories but he loves moto and came up with the DB Dawg. Cost effective low tech simple product that bridged the gap for several years until the exhaust manufacturers got with the program and starting producing sound inserts for their mufflers.

Team Green-I respect your opinion but no way in the warm place can I justify any company building louder exhaust systems.
Sloaner104 10/7/2013 8:37pm
10/7/2013 8:37pm
queen of spodes wrote:
People are so damned fickle. Give them what they want, loud pipes, then they will bitch about losing riding areas to the enviroweenies. It ain't the...
People are so damned fickle. Give them what they want, loud pipes, then they will bitch about losing riding areas to the enviroweenies. It ain't the greenies doing that.. regular people hate hearing our loud, farting machines bellowing across the countryside. They don't like it, and people are foolish to continue pushing that envelope.

Some of these people are bonafide Vitards. Get over your loud bike obsession.. your 450 makes plenty of HP without you needing to alert the entire county that you came up a little short.
Well said I wish they'd just ban 4 strokes they suck
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KGAspeed 10/7/2013 9:21pm
10/7/2013 9:21pm
500guy wrote:
if people want to buy them why is this an issue ? Pro Circuit is not the Police, if sound is an issue at your local...
if people want to buy them why is this an issue ?

Pro Circuit is not the Police, if sound is an issue at your local track they should sound test everyone and make them comply.
Because people are ignorant, and they don't need a helping hand toward a negative cause. Pretty simple.
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The Rock 10/8/2013 12:08am
10/8/2013 12:08am
500guy wrote:
if people want to buy them why is this an issue ? Pro Circuit is not the Police, if sound is an issue at your local...
if people want to buy them why is this an issue ?

Pro Circuit is not the Police, if sound is an issue at your local track they should sound test everyone and make them comply.
KGAspeed wrote:
Because people are ignorant, and they don't need a helping hand toward a negative cause. Pretty simple.
Because this is 2014 (almost) and .....you know this is like when you have to explain the punch line I don't have the motivation to get into it The short version is on sound you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. The new PC mufflers are definitely part of the problem now.

Can you imagine how loud these short cans will be after Billy Bob puts 50 hours on the muffler? Feel like Brando in Apocalypse Now...."the horror.....the horror....."
ToolMaker 10/8/2013 5:49am
10/8/2013 5:49am
I personally would prefer quieter bikes, but I also prefer not to hear the car next to me on the road playing their stereo so loud the whole neighborhood hears it. having said that , if there are people looking for that exhaust, should Mitch just say we are not going to address that market? I'm not sure if they don't offer that pipe, the potential customer will buy a different PC pipe or they lose the sale to another company who offers the louder pipe. Until you know the answer to that question then you can't fault Mitch if he is losing sales. I suspect there is a small percentage that truly wants a louder pipe. I don't think PC is the problem.
If the exhaust manufactures created an alliance with specific lab and criteria for a maximum db level and agreed not to produce pipes over the agreed db level, then they are not losing the sale to the company down the street offering louder exhaust. They could even get the dealerships on board to not sell systems that do not have the stamp of approval. How well that would work with instant access internet sales I'm not sure.
TM
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Jimfunn 10/8/2013 6:16am
10/8/2013 6:16am
this is a dumb move by PC. It IS their responsibility to bring the noise level in MX down to an acceptable level.
mxdude105
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mxdude105 10/8/2013 6:19am
10/8/2013 6:19am Edited Date/Time 10/8/2013 6:19am
The sound of a loud four stroke in the woods behind my house can get annoying, but it's no worse than a straight pipe Harley or a diesel truck with stacks flying up the street, both of which happen many times a day (and night) around here. The dirt bikes are an easy target for bitching neighbors. They're dirty, "dangerous" and most people just wish they would go away. The sound is an excuse to get the city/county/state involved, which never ends well for us.
That said, if the bikes were to be quieter it would possibly alleviate the issue. I just think if you make them quieter, John Q. Neighbor will find something else about the bikes that he doesn't like.
HenryA
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HenryA 10/8/2013 7:23am
10/8/2013 7:23am
Whatever, every bike will be super electric in 10-15 years. The combustion engine is done folks, get ready to move on.
queen of spodes 10/8/2013 10:06am
10/8/2013 10:06am
The wheel is done folks, get ready to evolve. - George Jetson
The Rock
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The Rock 10/8/2013 11:12am
10/8/2013 11:12am
HenryA wrote:
Whatever, every bike will be super electric in 10-15 years. The combustion engine is done folks, get ready to move on.
And four strokes were going to replace two strokes too remember? the combustion engine will be around for a long time and if you need any proof just look at the diesel resurgence even though there are plenty of hybrid and all electric options available in the marketplace.

Bottom line is there is a place for two strokes, four strokes and electric bikes to peacefully coexist.................just like the human being and the fish.
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peelout 10/8/2013 11:16am
10/8/2013 11:16am
HenryA wrote:
Whatever, every bike will be super electric in 10-15 years. The combustion engine is done folks, get ready to move on.
The Rock wrote:
And four strokes were going to replace two strokes too remember? the combustion engine will be around for a long time and if you need any...
And four strokes were going to replace two strokes too remember? the combustion engine will be around for a long time and if you need any proof just look at the diesel resurgence even though there are plenty of hybrid and all electric options available in the marketplace.

Bottom line is there is a place for two strokes, four strokes and electric bikes to peacefully coexist.................just like the human being and the fish.
of course there's a place for 2-strokes... in the home of the consumers and not on the line of a professional series (about to change in the GP's with the 300 class and 125 class). American motocross needs to step it up in that aspect.

but regardless, what the pro's run on Saturday doesn't change what i ride and spend money on Monday. 2-strokes only for me from here out.
The Rock
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The Rock 10/8/2013 11:23am
10/8/2013 11:23am
peelout wrote:
of course there's a place for 2-strokes... in the home of the consumers and not on the line of a professional series (about to change in...
of course there's a place for 2-strokes... in the home of the consumers and not on the line of a professional series (about to change in the GP's with the 300 class and 125 class). American motocross needs to step it up in that aspect.

but regardless, what the pro's run on Saturday doesn't change what i ride and spend money on Monday. 2-strokes only for me from here out.
The force is strong in this one RE: 2-strokes only for me from here out.
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rohleder644 10/8/2013 11:52am
10/8/2013 11:52am
So, is it can length or volume that quiets the bike down?

I've never been a fan of the silencers that go all the way to the end of the fender. Too vulnerable. Can one of the "race" cans be brought down to similiar levels as a "quiet" silencer with the help of an insert?
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The Rock 10/8/2013 12:50pm
10/8/2013 12:50pm
Yes both can length and amount of packing play factors in noise level reduction.

Inserts definitely help with sound reduction but they increase heat in the muffler/silencer from the reduced air flow creating heat.. When using an insert I always recommend a repack with high quality packing and possibly a steel wool core wrap to reduce the amount of physical damage (from the sound waves) to the packing fibers. If you put an insert into a can with worn packing you 1) won't be getting the full benefit for sound reduction from your worn packing and 2) you will accelerate the demise of your packing.

In a perfect world mufflers and silencers that possess the right combination of size and packing fill weight are superior over using an insert but in the real world for most of us popping an insert into the muffler/silencer is the norm.

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DrSweden 10/8/2013 2:44pm
10/8/2013 2:44pm Edited Date/Time 10/8/2013 3:15pm
DrSweden wrote:
Sounds like a brainfart from Mitch? I went for the Ti-4R previously because it was less noisy, gave me tons of pleasure and by being silent...
Sounds like a brainfart from Mitch? I went for the Ti-4R previously because it was less noisy, gave me tons of pleasure and by being silent and added plenty of power. Recently I was thinking about him loosing the momentum in racing, he went from dominating the 250 class, to something I don't recognize, lost both SX-lites, and outdoors this year was close to a fiasco both 250 and 450, and now this. He wasn't present at the des nations either which of course correlates to not winning mx...

He's slipping?

Probably reading to much into it, and racing will probably sort it self out, but this loud approach is just plain retarded, how the fuck can it be supported? Free market? Loud bikes should be illegal, just because there's a demand for destructive items, we shouldn't wait for a law to reduce supplies.
TeamGreen wrote:
Uh, no.

PC makes FIM/AMA & even USFS compliant systems.

Some riders, as Mitch commented, want something different.

That's ALL that's going on here.

Period.
I kind of figure he's in tune with the regulations in racing, Maybe it came out wrong, I know he still does the "low db" as in the Ti-5 stuff, but like many, I have an issue with him offering stupidity to retards because his hunt for personal profit, that might damage our sport and hobby in the long run.

So "Uh, no" to that, or "Uh, no" he's loosing momentum with his race team?
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 10/8/2013 4:17pm
10/8/2013 4:17pm
DrSweden wrote:
Sounds like a brainfart from Mitch? I went for the Ti-4R previously because it was less noisy, gave me tons of pleasure and by being silent...
Sounds like a brainfart from Mitch? I went for the Ti-4R previously because it was less noisy, gave me tons of pleasure and by being silent and added plenty of power. Recently I was thinking about him loosing the momentum in racing, he went from dominating the 250 class, to something I don't recognize, lost both SX-lites, and outdoors this year was close to a fiasco both 250 and 450, and now this. He wasn't present at the des nations either which of course correlates to not winning mx...

He's slipping?

Probably reading to much into it, and racing will probably sort it self out, but this loud approach is just plain retarded, how the fuck can it be supported? Free market? Loud bikes should be illegal, just because there's a demand for destructive items, we shouldn't wait for a law to reduce supplies.
TeamGreen wrote:
Uh, no.

PC makes FIM/AMA & even USFS compliant systems.

Some riders, as Mitch commented, want something different.

That's ALL that's going on here.

Period.
DrSweden wrote:
I kind of figure he's in tune with the regulations in racing, Maybe it came out wrong, I know he still does the "low db" as...
I kind of figure he's in tune with the regulations in racing, Maybe it came out wrong, I know he still does the "low db" as in the Ti-5 stuff, but like many, I have an issue with him offering stupidity to retards because his hunt for personal profit, that might damage our sport and hobby in the long run.

So "Uh, no" to that, or "Uh, no" he's loosing momentum with his race team?
I'll tell ya what:

You pick your Fab-4-Anti-PC riders & I'll go PC on each Coast & we'll see about your understanding of...

"Uh, No".

M'Kay?

Some of you guys have NO Comprehension of Reality.

(drops the Mic & walks off-stage...)

Background: I'm at one of Mitch's competitors, today: "I saw you trying to save Mitch & that thread on Vital. Sure, like that's going to happen!"
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Torco1 10/8/2013 4:56pm
10/8/2013 4:56pm
Torco1 wrote:
Nobody is making you buy the louder exhaust and I'm pretty sure both Pro Circuit and FMF make inserts that quiet the bikes down. Pretty simple...
Nobody is making you buy the louder exhaust and I'm pretty sure both Pro Circuit and FMF make inserts that quiet the bikes down. Pretty simple solution really, if you live somewhere where noise is a concern, buy a system that offers less noise. Here in SoCal noise isn't an issue on tracks......yet anyway. So we have the luxury of picking from a larger pool of exhaust systems.
queen of spodes wrote:
If you live somewhere where noise isn't a concern just buy the loud pipes and wait for noise to become a concern.
People have been riding loud-ass annoying bikes all over SoCal's tracks for the last 20 years......I dont think it's going to change anytime soon. Fortunately.....or unfortunately (however you look at it) sound just isn't really an issue here. Tracks are usually protected, homeowners have to sign documents when buying a house close to a track saying they understand a motocross track is nearby that has been there for X amount of years and that you complaining about it isn't going to do anything.
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Torco1 10/8/2013 5:59pm
10/8/2013 5:59pm
Torco1 wrote:
Nobody is making you buy the louder exhaust and I'm pretty sure both Pro Circuit and FMF make inserts that quiet the bikes down. Pretty simple...
Nobody is making you buy the louder exhaust and I'm pretty sure both Pro Circuit and FMF make inserts that quiet the bikes down. Pretty simple solution really, if you live somewhere where noise is a concern, buy a system that offers less noise. Here in SoCal noise isn't an issue on tracks......yet anyway. So we have the luxury of picking from a larger pool of exhaust systems.
The Rock wrote:
This thread is about PC producing shorter mufflers which are louder since they have less packing volume. When you put an insert in the new shorter...
This thread is about PC producing shorter mufflers which are louder since they have less packing volume. When you put an insert in the new shorter cans (if they even support this) they will still be loud. Anyway why would anyone who is brain dead enough to buy a louder exhaust be concerned with an insert?

Mitch has been a supporter of sound testing in the Nationals (MX Sports' sound test program pales in comparison to what goes down in SX every race) and I applaud Mitch for this position but have to choice than to give him a FAIL for his decision to take our sport back to the 20th century with these new louder exhausts.
I thought the thread was about PC encouraging loud exhaust......hence the title. What I get from it is PC is now offering a shorter exhaust to compliment their existing line of products. Did they discontinue all of their other mufflers and only offer this one? If they did I guess I can see the problem, if they didn't, we'll I guess I'm a little confused. If they still produce all of their older exhaust systems including the quiet inserts and added this new shorter system to cater to a certain group of riders, where's the problem? I understand some of you are against louder exhaust systems, but what about the riders that have private tracks or ride where noise isn't an issue? Because some of you don't agree with the louder system, does that mean everyone else should as well? Again, I'm just a little confused and guess I need someone to explain it to me.
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.ukaf. 10/8/2013 7:02pm
10/8/2013 7:02pm Edited Date/Time 10/8/2013 7:17pm
Torco1 wrote:
Nobody is making you buy the louder exhaust and I'm pretty sure both Pro Circuit and FMF make inserts that quiet the bikes down. Pretty simple...
Nobody is making you buy the louder exhaust and I'm pretty sure both Pro Circuit and FMF make inserts that quiet the bikes down. Pretty simple solution really, if you live somewhere where noise is a concern, buy a system that offers less noise. Here in SoCal noise isn't an issue on tracks......yet anyway. So we have the luxury of picking from a larger pool of exhaust systems.
The Rock wrote:
This thread is about PC producing shorter mufflers which are louder since they have less packing volume. When you put an insert in the new shorter...
This thread is about PC producing shorter mufflers which are louder since they have less packing volume. When you put an insert in the new shorter cans (if they even support this) they will still be loud. Anyway why would anyone who is brain dead enough to buy a louder exhaust be concerned with an insert?

Mitch has been a supporter of sound testing in the Nationals (MX Sports' sound test program pales in comparison to what goes down in SX every race) and I applaud Mitch for this position but have to choice than to give him a FAIL for his decision to take our sport back to the 20th century with these new louder exhausts.
Torco1 wrote:
I thought the thread was about PC encouraging loud exhaust......hence the title. What I get from it is PC is now offering a shorter exhaust to...
I thought the thread was about PC encouraging loud exhaust......hence the title. What I get from it is PC is now offering a shorter exhaust to compliment their existing line of products. Did they discontinue all of their other mufflers and only offer this one? If they did I guess I can see the problem, if they didn't, we'll I guess I'm a little confused. If they still produce all of their older exhaust systems including the quiet inserts and added this new shorter system to cater to a certain group of riders, where's the problem? I understand some of you are against louder exhaust systems, but what about the riders that have private tracks or ride where noise isn't an issue? Because some of you don't agree with the louder system, does that mean everyone else should as well? Again, I'm just a little confused and guess I need someone to explain it to me.
If PC simply sold pipes in the USA I could kind of let this fly on by - even though it's incredibly short sighted. Is Mitch Payton ready to sell up and retire I wonder?

For me the problem is that we have retards in the UK who'll be buying these pipes because their "crosser" needs more power. They don't care that it'll damage the sport nor do they care about noise testing at tracks (most of which are within 2 miles of a village or town).

Hopefully our governing bodies (ACU/AMCA/MCF) will ban these systems and indirectly let PC know that their short term profiteering is wholly unacceptable to the future of dirt bike sport in the UK.

I dislike legislative interference as much as the next guy but sometimes it seems 'we' need protecting from 'our own' stupidity.

Shame on you Mitch Payton.
queen of spodes 10/9/2013 5:11am
10/9/2013 5:11am
Torco1 wrote:
People have been riding loud-ass annoying bikes all over SoCal's tracks for the last 20 years......I dont think it's going to change anytime soon. Fortunately.....or unfortunately...
People have been riding loud-ass annoying bikes all over SoCal's tracks for the last 20 years......I dont think it's going to change anytime soon. Fortunately.....or unfortunately (however you look at it) sound just isn't really an issue here. Tracks are usually protected, homeowners have to sign documents when buying a house close to a track saying they understand a motocross track is nearby that has been there for X amount of years and that you complaining about it isn't going to do anything.
Because what happens in socal happens everywhere. Sounds legit.
RMT
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RMT 10/9/2013 8:02am
10/9/2013 8:02am
Screw it, next time I come ride Glen Helen, I'm tossing the silencer and running a straight pipe. Gotta be faster cuz its louder. Just look at moto gp and F1. Right Mitch?

I love when the nutsucklers come out to play. Always the same group.
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DrSweden 10/9/2013 2:50pm
10/9/2013 2:50pm
TeamGreen wrote:
I'll tell ya what: You pick your Fab-4-Anti-PC riders & I'll go PC on each Coast & we'll see about your understanding of... "Uh, No". M'Kay...
I'll tell ya what:

You pick your Fab-4-Anti-PC riders & I'll go PC on each Coast & we'll see about your understanding of...

"Uh, No".

M'Kay?

Some of you guys have NO Comprehension of Reality.

(drops the Mic & walks off-stage...)

Background: I'm at one of Mitch's competitors, today: "I saw you trying to save Mitch & that thread on Vital. Sure, like that's going to happen!"
You really are on thin ice, and taking a big risk in suggesting PC will continue being successful.... And that would end the discussion? Mkay... Even us outsiders can figure he will be the major guy for another decade or so. Seriously.

Dunno where it went wrong, you went into protective mode here, maybe you have some ties that might cloud your judgment, the discussion was about him making a decision, that might hurt us all in a way because he just want to increase sales. Him having less impressive results lately is pretty clear for me as well. Not saying there's a connection, but he has been pretty flawless for a long time in my book, but this sounds bad. Isn't that some sort of reality to grasp to make on your behalf?

Or we are not allowed to question him, but can set a regular guy on fire running when running an open system in his backyard waking up neighbors? Same stupid line of thinking in my book.
mx5471
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mx5471 10/9/2013 4:15pm
10/9/2013 4:15pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2013 4:33pm
This issue pretty much depends on where the tracks are located. Our club track is in the country, but there are houses very close by. It's been there for 51 years, holds 6 races a year in association with the district, and has fund raisers on race weekends for things like the local volunteer ambulance and fire districts. During hunting season, members don't ride until after noon. The neighbors and community have been good neighbors, because we have been good neighbors. Ten years ago we instituted a sound rule, after extensive testing with an aftermarket company that makes packing material. We rode different bikes,with different exhaust systems, 2 and 4 stroke, while the company tested onsite, and drove the surrounding roads testing while people rode the track. We have a 120 foot table top, and the guys that could do it did it with every pipe, and every bike, even with the Q pipes on the 4 strokes. The guys that couldn't do were not helped by any pipe, which shows that the pipes aren't helping most riders. After looking at the data, we put in place a simple sound rule. 2 strokes can run any pipe, or any silencer as long as it is stock length. 4 stokes must run a Q pipe or a closed cap system with 7 discs. If you want to run something else, you can take it to the company, ( 15 miles away ), and they will sound test it for free. If it meets the standards it gets added to the list of acceptable exhausts. On race days, anything goes. It keeps our neighbors happy, and our track open. A lot of people don't like motorcycles.The 2 biggest things that will get a successful track shut down are noise and dust.
The Rock
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The Rock 10/10/2013 1:12pm
10/10/2013 1:12pm
TeamGreen wrote:
I'll tell ya what: You pick your Fab-4-Anti-PC riders & I'll go PC on each Coast & we'll see about your understanding of... "Uh, No". M'Kay...
I'll tell ya what:

You pick your Fab-4-Anti-PC riders & I'll go PC on each Coast & we'll see about your understanding of...

"Uh, No".

M'Kay?

Some of you guys have NO Comprehension of Reality.

(drops the Mic & walks off-stage...)

Background: I'm at one of Mitch's competitors, today: "I saw you trying to save Mitch & that thread on Vital. Sure, like that's going to happen!"
I've got no problem with your position of supporting PC but do take serious issue with your insult that those of us that don't share your opinion have NO comprehension of reality. How about rather than insulting us that don't agree with you instead you respect our position for not wanting to set the sport back to the YZ400 days in the late 90s?

Regarding Background: I'm at one of Mitch's competitors, today: "I saw you trying to save Mitch & that thread on Vital. Sure, like that's going to happen!" first off Mitch is a big boy and doesn't need saving. Secondly as a person who was beating the sound drum five years ago (and caught much more flak than I did support for my position) it is great to see the majority of people not supporting PC's decision to sell loud pipes.
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JB 19 10/10/2013 2:41pm
10/10/2013 2:41pm
It's obvious that the guys throwing Mitch under the bus have no experience of running a business........or much common sense.
The Rock
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HAIKU, HI, USA
The Rock 10/10/2013 5:39pm
10/10/2013 5:39pm
No one is throwing Mitch under the bus unless you believe people expressing their opinions on the noise subject throwing Mitch under the bus.

On the common sense subject I don't think the decision to make louder pipes (which is a major factor in losing riding areas) makes much sense. However it is so American-ish for companies to trade long term profits for short term income so I guess I shouldn't be surprised at PC's announcement. In the long run this is a bad decision anyway you slice it.

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