Why are my airfilters not working?

DocMarten
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Edited Date/Time 8/21/2013 12:54pm
I have a 04 CR250 and rotate 2 twin air filters between rides. I clean them thoroughly with diesel then wash them out with simple green and luke warm water after.

I've been using bel ray air filter oil (blue stuff) for years and never had a problem until this bike. I recently tried some spray on oil and am havinh the same results..ive tried oiling just the outside to doing both the outside and inside of the filter.

I have re-sealed my airbox and used flat head screws where the nubs used to be to fix the sealing problem..my airbox is essentially the same as the older 01 design, without the aluminum lip.

I notice some slight specs of dirt getting through into the airbooot. In addition to putting grease on the airfilter where it seats with the airbox, i also put grease around the airfilter edge where it mates and have even tried putting alittle bit in the boot itself to try and trap it.

am i supposed to be greasing the bolt where it goes into the filter?
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8/16/2013 11:10pm
Honestly I don't grease anything....the problem is in the cleaning...stop using gas...buy some new filters and filter cleaner...the gas expands and stretches the filter allowing dirt to seep through the pours
DocMarten
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8/17/2013 12:04am
motoxer66 wrote:
Honestly I don't grease anything....the problem is in the cleaning...stop using gas...buy some new filters and filter cleaner...the gas expands and stretches the filter allowing dirt...
Honestly I don't grease anything....the problem is in the cleaning...stop using gas...buy some new filters and filter cleaner...the gas expands and stretches the filter allowing dirt to seep through the pours
diesel isnt gasoline..its basically keroscene with some oil in it.

perhaps ill give it a shot.
jsmx97
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8/17/2013 9:07am
I use mineral spirits with good luck. Used to use diesel but I have better luck with the MS. Maybe try a loudmouth??
pete24
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8/17/2013 10:51am
buy an mxbonz air box sealing kit and then start using no toil its the best and bio degradeable you dont need any special hazardos waste buckets i let my buddies use it for years before i did because i was sceptical its the best buy the kit and do it, and stop greasing stuff

The Shop

8/17/2013 11:10am
The mxbonz kit is a great suggestion for those CR's, but imo you can't beat the DT-1 filters.
There's a neoprene seal where the filter meets the airbox. The result is a perfect seal, without messy grease. Add that to the super high quality 2 stage foam, and as a bonus it's made in the USA.
DocMarten
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8/17/2013 12:52pm
pete24 wrote:
buy an mxbonz air box sealing kit and then start using no toil its the best and bio degradeable you dont need any special hazardos waste...
buy an mxbonz air box sealing kit and then start using no toil its the best and bio degradeable you dont need any special hazardos waste buckets i let my buddies use it for years before i did because i was sceptical its the best buy the kit and do it, and stop greasing stuff
no toil is garbage and only works if the dirt is perfect..if its dusty or muddy out it breaks down.
FGR01
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Fantasy
8/17/2013 4:32pm
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter cage but it is $$$.

Grease is not needed and is a leftover habit from the 70's and whatever you do never use any of those bogus kits with the stupid neoprene "gasket". they are too damn thick and push the whole filter back and make it hard to get the bolt started. They just over complicate the whole process and are unnecessary.
pete24
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8/17/2013 5:02pm
pete24 wrote:
buy an mxbonz air box sealing kit and then start using no toil its the best and bio degradeable you dont need any special hazardos waste...
buy an mxbonz air box sealing kit and then start using no toil its the best and bio degradeable you dont need any special hazardos waste buckets i let my buddies use it for years before i did because i was sceptical its the best buy the kit and do it, and stop greasing stuff
DocMarten wrote:
no toil is garbage and only works if the dirt is perfect..if its dusty or muddy out it breaks down.
if you think no toil doesnt work you either dont know how to oil a filter or you have never tried it
slipdog
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8/17/2013 6:17pm
Been using NoToil for as long as I can remember, never had one spec of dirt go through any of my filters.
Skerby
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8/17/2013 7:15pm
I always have some almost microscopic dirt in my air boot. 2009 yz 250 with 312 hours on the meter. Sometimes my old top ends have some minor scratching but its always on the exhaust side.
DocMarten
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8/17/2013 8:20pm
Skerby wrote:
I always have some almost microscopic dirt in my air boot. 2009 yz 250 with 312 hours on the meter. Sometimes my old top ends have...
I always have some almost microscopic dirt in my air boot. 2009 yz 250 with 312 hours on the meter. Sometimes my old top ends have some minor scratching but its always on the exhaust side.
Word up..what kind of filter do you use and what oil? how do you clean the filters?

The dirt specs in my airboot/reed cage are pretty small and you really need to look at them with a bright light/L.E.D light to notice them

Whoever uses Notoil obviously doesnt have much an eye for detail.
DocMarten
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8/17/2013 8:21pm
pete24 wrote:
buy an mxbonz air box sealing kit and then start using no toil its the best and bio degradeable you dont need any special hazardos waste...
buy an mxbonz air box sealing kit and then start using no toil its the best and bio degradeable you dont need any special hazardos waste buckets i let my buddies use it for years before i did because i was sceptical its the best buy the kit and do it, and stop greasing stuff
DocMarten wrote:
no toil is garbage and only works if the dirt is perfect..if its dusty or muddy out it breaks down.
pete24 wrote:
if you think no toil doesnt work you either dont know how to oil a filter or you have never tried it
ive used it in the past and have totally soaked filters with it, and saw that it was a good oil for letting dirt through the filter.
DocMarten
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8/17/2013 8:28pm
FGR01 wrote:
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter...
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter cage but it is $$$.

Grease is not needed and is a leftover habit from the 70's and whatever you do never use any of those bogus kits with the stupid neoprene "gasket". they are too damn thick and push the whole filter back and make it hard to get the bolt started. They just over complicate the whole process and are unnecessary.
how is using grease a leftover habit from the 70s?

it acts as a seal, especially if the airbox design isnt that goood (like the early CRFs)
FGR01
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8/17/2013 8:32pm
FGR01 wrote:
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter...
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter cage but it is $$$.

Grease is not needed and is a leftover habit from the 70's and whatever you do never use any of those bogus kits with the stupid neoprene "gasket". they are too damn thick and push the whole filter back and make it hard to get the bolt started. They just over complicate the whole process and are unnecessary.
DocMarten wrote:
how is using grease a leftover habit from the 70s? it acts as a seal, especially if the airbox design isnt that goood (like the early...
how is using grease a leftover habit from the 70s?

it acts as a seal, especially if the airbox design isnt that goood (like the early CRFs)
The sealing problem with the 2002-2004 CR/CRF is not at the air filter/mounting plate junction. It is at the mounting plate/airbox junction. That is why you need the MX Bonz or Twin-Air sealing rings kit to fix it. No amount of grease is going to fix it. If you need grease to get your air filter to seal properly you are doing something wrong.
DocMarten
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8/17/2013 11:47pm
FGR01 wrote:
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter...
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter cage but it is $$$.

Grease is not needed and is a leftover habit from the 70's and whatever you do never use any of those bogus kits with the stupid neoprene "gasket". they are too damn thick and push the whole filter back and make it hard to get the bolt started. They just over complicate the whole process and are unnecessary.
DocMarten wrote:
how is using grease a leftover habit from the 70s? it acts as a seal, especially if the airbox design isnt that goood (like the early...
how is using grease a leftover habit from the 70s?

it acts as a seal, especially if the airbox design isnt that goood (like the early CRFs)
FGR01 wrote:
The sealing problem with the 2002-2004 CR/CRF is not at the air filter/mounting plate junction. It is at the mounting plate/airbox junction. That is why you...
The sealing problem with the 2002-2004 CR/CRF is not at the air filter/mounting plate junction. It is at the mounting plate/airbox junction. That is why you need the MX Bonz or Twin-Air sealing rings kit to fix it. No amount of grease is going to fix it. If you need grease to get your air filter to seal properly you are doing something wrong.
i sealed the airboot to the airbox with the 3M adhesive and countersunk the screws that hold it in place (drilled the nubs out)

its the same thing as the MX-bonz kit except it cost me about $6 in nuts and bolts from the hardware store
CamP
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8/18/2013 5:58am
FGR01 wrote:
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter...
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter cage but it is $$$.

Grease is not needed and is a leftover habit from the 70's and whatever you do never use any of those bogus kits with the stupid neoprene "gasket". they are too damn thick and push the whole filter back and make it hard to get the bolt started. They just over complicate the whole process and are unnecessary.
I quit greasing filter rims almost 20 years ago, but when I got my 07 CR250, I found that the protruding nubs of the 02-07 CR airbox design made greasing the rim necessary because the nubs lift the filter away from the sealing ring.
FGR01
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8/18/2013 7:24am
DocMarten wrote:
i sealed the airboot to the airbox with the 3M adhesive and countersunk the screws that hold it in place (drilled the nubs out) its the...
i sealed the airboot to the airbox with the 3M adhesive and countersunk the screws that hold it in place (drilled the nubs out)

its the same thing as the MX-bonz kit except it cost me about $6 in nuts and bolts from the hardware store
Well, I wouldn't say it's the same. The stock airboot mounting plate is made of thin stamped steel while the MX Bonz one is thick billet aluminum. One of the probs with the stocker is that when you crank down tightly on it it just warps all to hell and gaps develop. Sounds like you have overcome this by gooping it all up with sealant. Probably not the most elegant solution but as long as no dirt is getting in I guess it's cheap and effective.
8/18/2013 12:38pm
FGR01 wrote:
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter...
Use the MX Bonz or the Twin Air resealing kit. The Twin Air kit is awesome with inner and outer sealing rings and a billet filter cage but it is $$$.

Grease is not needed and is a leftover habit from the 70's and whatever you do never use any of those bogus kits with the stupid neoprene "gasket". they are too damn thick and push the whole filter back and make it hard to get the bolt started. They just over complicate the whole process and are unnecessary.
If you're referring to the airbox kits with the neoprene being a bad purchase, I don't have any experience so can't intelligently comment.

If you're suggesting that the filters with the built in neoprene seal (DT-1 aka Moose) are a bad idea, I would vehemently disagree with you. Particularly on a sub standard airbox design like the CR's have. Perhaps you need to apply a bit more pressure to get the retaining bolt started (and that's an actual problem??), but there is no chance of it leaking.
Skerby
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8/18/2013 1:47pm
DocMarten wrote:
Word up..what kind of filter do you use and what oil? how do you clean the filters? The dirt specs in my airboot/reed cage are pretty...
Word up..what kind of filter do you use and what oil? how do you clean the filters?

The dirt specs in my airboot/reed cage are pretty small and you really need to look at them with a bright light/L.E.D light to notice them

Whoever uses Notoil obviously doesnt have much an eye for detail.
I run twin airs with the bel ray oil. I wash them in a parts tank, I think its full of mineral spirits, then soap and water.
CamP
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8/18/2013 3:16pm Edited Date/Time 8/18/2013 3:20pm
DocMarten wrote:
i sealed the airboot to the airbox with the 3M adhesive and countersunk the screws that hold it in place (drilled the nubs out) its the...
i sealed the airboot to the airbox with the 3M adhesive and countersunk the screws that hold it in place (drilled the nubs out)

its the same thing as the MX-bonz kit except it cost me about $6 in nuts and bolts from the hardware store
FGR01 wrote:
Well, I wouldn't say it's the same. The stock airboot mounting plate is made of thin stamped steel while the MX Bonz one is thick billet...
Well, I wouldn't say it's the same. The stock airboot mounting plate is made of thin stamped steel while the MX Bonz one is thick billet aluminum. One of the probs with the stocker is that when you crank down tightly on it it just warps all to hell and gaps develop. Sounds like you have overcome this by gooping it all up with sealant. Probably not the most elegant solution but as long as no dirt is getting in I guess it's cheap and effective.
The 02-07 airbox doesn't have a separate stamped steel sealing ring inside the airbox. It's molded into the plastic airbox itself and there are large nubs/bosses on the sealing ring because the rubber boot is wood screwed to the box from the outside.

I prefer the pre-'02 CR airbox design, with the steel ring, because it doesn't require grease. The 02-07 design definitely requires grease.
FGR01
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8/18/2013 3:33pm
CamP wrote:
The 02-07 airbox doesn't have a separate stamped steel sealing ring inside the airbox. It's molded into the plastic airbox itself and there are large nubs/bosses...
The 02-07 airbox doesn't have a separate stamped steel sealing ring inside the airbox. It's molded into the plastic airbox itself and there are large nubs/bosses on the sealing ring because the rubber boot is wood screwed to the box from the outside.

I prefer the pre-'02 CR airbox design, with the steel ring, because it doesn't require grease. The 02-07 design definitely requires grease.
I know exactly what they are like. I've had an 02, 04, 05, 06, and 07. I got the stupid "recall" notice in the mail from Honda when they realized how pathetic the design was on the 02.

The steel ring I'm talking about is not on the inside, it's on the outside and holds the airboot to the airbox. If you eliminate the nubs and woodscrews and put through bolts so that you can really crank down on it like DocMarten did, you will simply distort the steel ring and create gaps where dirt can potentially enter. The main problem with the design is the fact that the lip of the airboot rests on the outside face of the airbox and does not come inside the airbox like common sense would dictate.
CamP
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8/18/2013 4:35pm
FGR01 wrote:
I know exactly what they are like. I've had an 02, 04, 05, 06, and 07. I got the stupid "recall" notice in the mail from...
I know exactly what they are like. I've had an 02, 04, 05, 06, and 07. I got the stupid "recall" notice in the mail from Honda when they realized how pathetic the design was on the 02.

The steel ring I'm talking about is not on the inside, it's on the outside and holds the airboot to the airbox. If you eliminate the nubs and woodscrews and put through bolts so that you can really crank down on it like DocMarten did, you will simply distort the steel ring and create gaps where dirt can potentially enter. The main problem with the design is the fact that the lip of the airboot rests on the outside face of the airbox and does not come inside the airbox like common sense would dictate.
Yes, the 03-07 received a foam insert between the airboot and airbox. It's better than nothing, but I removed it and sealed the junction with weatherstrip adhesive.

The single lip airboot design is mickey mouse. The pre-'02 CR's have a superior double lip airboot, with steel rings on the inside and outside. I also seal them with weatherstrip adhesive.

The stock 02-07 design is cheaper and lighter, but it can be problematic if you don't reseal the box and grease the filters. The aftermarket kits offer a permanent fix, but you can buy a lot of grease with that money.
SPYGUY
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8/20/2013 10:30am
DocMarten wrote:
no toil is garbage and only works if the dirt is perfect..if its dusty or muddy out it breaks down.
pete24 wrote:
if you think no toil doesnt work you either dont know how to oil a filter or you have never tried it
DocMarten wrote:
ive used it in the past and have totally soaked filters with it, and saw that it was a good oil for letting dirt through the...
ive used it in the past and have totally soaked filters with it, and saw that it was a good oil for letting dirt through the filter.
Didn't you start this thread about dirt getting through your Bel-Ray oiled filters?

Maybe YOU are the problem.
seth505
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8/20/2013 11:54am
DocMarten wrote:
no toil is garbage and only works if the dirt is perfect..if its dusty or muddy out it breaks down.
pete24 wrote:
if you think no toil doesnt work you either dont know how to oil a filter or you have never tried it
DocMarten wrote:
ive used it in the past and have totally soaked filters with it, and saw that it was a good oil for letting dirt through the...
ive used it in the past and have totally soaked filters with it, and saw that it was a good oil for letting dirt through the filter.
I ride in sand/medium/hard pack and use notoil. Why don't my bikes blow up every few rides??
DocMarten
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8/20/2013 11:07pm
pete24 wrote:
if you think no toil doesnt work you either dont know how to oil a filter or you have never tried it
DocMarten wrote:
ive used it in the past and have totally soaked filters with it, and saw that it was a good oil for letting dirt through the...
ive used it in the past and have totally soaked filters with it, and saw that it was a good oil for letting dirt through the filter.
SPYGUY wrote:
Didn't you start this thread about dirt getting through your Bel-Ray oiled filters?

Maybe YOU are the problem.
the difference is, when i used no toil it was a considerable amount of dirt

these are just specs
mx5471
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8/21/2013 1:30am Edited Date/Time 8/21/2013 1:37am
I have used the No Toil for over 10 years with no problems. At our practice track, most of the time it was hard and dusty. Ride 2 hours, use 2 filters. I used Twin Air filters and No Toil. I'll tell you, even being cleaned at least once a week, some of those filters lasted over 2 years. But what i did on each bike was to put the filter cage in the bike without a filter, and see how well it fit against the air box. Then I would grind the inside of the filter cage, where the bolt goes through, to make the cage fit tight. Just do that, and use lukewarm water to clean the filters after using the No Toil. People say it separates the filters, but it's just because they use water that's too hot and it melts the glue. No Toil, and no grease, and no problem.
motofab36
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Cowden, IL US
8/21/2013 6:28am
I have been using No Toil oil, cleaner AND filters for years without any problems.
slipdog
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8/21/2013 6:59am
My buddy "Iowa Jim" said your doing it wrong. Fresh Twin Air and some TiLube filter oil is all you need, extra 2hp guaranteed!


motosicko
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8/21/2013 9:15am
slipdog wrote:
My buddy "Iowa Jim" said your doing it wrong. Fresh Twin Air and some TiLube filter oil is all you need, extra 2hp guaranteed! [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/08/21/29600/s1200_image.jpg[/img]
My buddy "Iowa Jim" said your doing it wrong. Fresh Twin Air and some TiLube filter oil is all you need, extra 2hp guaranteed!


All that extra hp is going to waste if you can't put the traction to the ground. Put some fresh rubber on that Honda^Tongue
slipdog
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8/21/2013 12:54pm
motosicko wrote:
All that extra hp is going to waste if you can't put the traction to the ground. Put some fresh rubber on that Honda^Tongue
Those are "race spec" slicks designed for mowing the grass in the asphalt cracks in super speedways... Whistling

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