newmann had it right years ago

The Rock
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The Rock
Edited Date/Time 7/19/2013 7:39pm
I used to think his two stroke rants were like that one guy who was always posting that four stroke MX bikes needed to be quieter but now with the passing of time I can see Joe Newmann was just way ahead of the curve. Took me quite a bit longer to hop on the two stroke train but honest to God I now realize two strokes are superior to four strokes in almost every area...cost, easy to work on, so much lighter, etc. For the record I do realize four strokes are easier to ride, way more tractable, blah blah blah but honestly their advantages IMHO simply don't outweigh their disadvantages.

When will the OEMs (Honda will NEVER offer them though) start phasing out their over priced over weight pigs and give the consumer what they want? In any event I am looking forward to the 300cc glass next year in Europe.
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Choppy
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Choppy 7/16/2013 6:40pm
7/16/2013 6:40pm
They'll give them a two-stroke WHEN they actually want one.
Vocal-minorities are still a minority.
The Rock
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The Rock 7/16/2013 6:44pm
7/16/2013 6:44pm
How would you classify shrinking rider counts at local tracks across the USA? A testament to the awesomeness of four strokes or an indication we've made an already expensive sport even more expensive to the point fewer and fewer can afford to race?

I can't even imagine how many blown up 250Fs are languishing in garages due to dads/racers not having the coin to revive them.
dboivin
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dboivin 7/16/2013 6:53pm
7/16/2013 6:53pm
its killing motocross. no one will admit it.

once a kid finishes his 85cc bikes....they disappear. no father wants to have a stable full of valve eaters....nor can they afford to. now you just see the really fast kids who attract sponsors continue on in the system.

tellin ya right now. if you brought a 125cc class to the nationals as a pre-pro trainer class it will have full gates busting at the seams....and it will revive the local tracks again with kids burning laps on 2 stroke 125s.
Wolfman
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Wolfman 7/16/2013 6:54pm
7/16/2013 6:54pm
Choppy wrote:
They'll give them a two-stroke WHEN they actually want one.
Vocal-minorities are still a minority.
It's not a minority. Keep telling yourself that though.

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gotwings
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gotwings 7/16/2013 6:54pm
7/16/2013 6:54pm
Not this fuckin shit again! Dude, you just copied word-for-word about 30 other threads. NEXT!!!
Nothing to see here, move along...
"If you don't study history, you're doomed to repeat it" -Winston Churchill
Choppy
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Choppy 7/16/2013 7:00pm
7/16/2013 7:00pm Edited Date/Time 7/16/2013 7:04pm
The Rock wrote:
How would you classify shrinking rider counts at local tracks across the USA? A testament to the awesomeness of four strokes or an indication we've made...
How would you classify shrinking rider counts at local tracks across the USA? A testament to the awesomeness of four strokes or an indication we've made an already expensive sport even more expensive to the point fewer and fewer can afford to race?

I can't even imagine how many blown up 250Fs are languishing in garages due to dads/racers not having the coin to revive them.
Everyone seems to miss the fact that people can still by two strokes, and almost every track has two-stroke only classes. It's not like all those cheap two strokes have been bought and nobody can get one. Hell I can walk into my dealership right now and they have a ton of two strokes new and used sitting collecting dust.

People want to blame the four stroke, but maybe, just maybe this sport simply had it's "popular" years and now it's equaling out to where it should.

Four-strokes could go away tomorrow and you wouldn't see old riding areas open up or new riding areas appear.
Choppy
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Choppy 7/16/2013 7:02pm
7/16/2013 7:02pm
Choppy wrote:
They'll give them a two-stroke WHEN they actually want one.
Vocal-minorities are still a minority.
Wolfman wrote:
It's not a minority. Keep telling yourself that though.
If its not a minority, you'd see more two strokes than 4, and KTM wouldn't be able to keep those two-strokes in stock. I don't see that problem in any of the places I've been/go.
vanillaice782
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vanillaice782 7/16/2013 7:20pm
7/16/2013 7:20pm
dboivin wrote:
its killing motocross. no one will admit it. once a kid finishes his 85cc bikes....they disappear. no father wants to have a stable full of valve...
its killing motocross. no one will admit it.

once a kid finishes his 85cc bikes....they disappear. no father wants to have a stable full of valve eaters....nor can they afford to. now you just see the really fast kids who attract sponsors continue on in the system.

tellin ya right now. if you brought a 125cc class to the nationals as a pre-pro trainer class it will have full gates busting at the seams....and it will revive the local tracks again with kids burning laps on 2 stroke 125s.
I like the 125 pro class at the nationals idea.
slipdog
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slipdog 7/16/2013 7:23pm
7/16/2013 7:23pm
I've had nine 4-strokes not counting my Husaberg 501 in the 90's, not one blew up and I loved them all.

FYI, the MSRP on a KTM 250sx is 7,100, so that ain't exactly cheep...

P.S. I love 2- strokes also!
Halfast816 7/16/2013 7:30pm
7/16/2013 7:30pm
If you don't know history you are doomed to repeat it.........good then maybe light weight quick revving two strokes will replace the old dinosaur four strokes. Again. Sorry to say the less talent you have the more you enjoy riding four strokes. That's why I ride them, not enough talent left in the old body to be competitive on the smoker but the mind sure wants to.
Choppy
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Choppy 7/16/2013 7:32pm
7/16/2013 7:32pm
slipdog wrote:
I've had nine 4-strokes not counting my Husaberg 501 in the 90's, not one blew up and I loved them all. FYI, the MSRP on a...
I've had nine 4-strokes not counting my Husaberg 501 in the 90's, not one blew up and I loved them all.

FYI, the MSRP on a KTM 250sx is 7,100, so that ain't exactly cheep...

P.S. I love 2- strokes also!
People don't want two-strokes back, they want the prices of the 80's and 90's and all those riding areas to come back. You can't even get them to add in inflation to those prices.
Boxermann
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Boxermann 7/16/2013 7:37pm
7/16/2013 7:37pm
dboivin wrote:
its killing motocross. no one will admit it. once a kid finishes his 85cc bikes....they disappear. no father wants to have a stable full of valve...
its killing motocross. no one will admit it.

once a kid finishes his 85cc bikes....they disappear. no father wants to have a stable full of valve eaters....nor can they afford to. now you just see the really fast kids who attract sponsors continue on in the system.

tellin ya right now. if you brought a 125cc class to the nationals as a pre-pro trainer class it will have full gates busting at the seams....and it will revive the local tracks again with kids burning laps on 2 stroke 125s.
Not sure how it is where you are but socal has tracks full of riders.since my last 2stroke(rm250) ive had a yz250f rmz450 and crf450.not that much more expensive.you are already in a expensive sport that cost thousands to do and your gonna bitch that much about paying a little more? Get over it,4 strokes are the bikes now.you can still buy a two stroke so be happy.dont get me wrong i bought a 125 for fun.i don't understand complaining so much about something that isn't that bad or to some people a good thing.i would take my 450 over a 250 .i think they are great
normanmx
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normanmx 7/16/2013 8:07pm
7/16/2013 8:07pm
The Rock wrote:
How would you classify shrinking rider counts at local tracks across the USA? A testament to the awesomeness of four strokes or an indication we've made...
How would you classify shrinking rider counts at local tracks across the USA? A testament to the awesomeness of four strokes or an indication we've made an already expensive sport even more expensive to the point fewer and fewer can afford to race?

I can't even imagine how many blown up 250Fs are languishing in garages due to dads/racers not having the coin to revive them.
Add to this the soaring sales KTM has nowadays because they NEVER gave up on 2 strokes....plus,US and Japan are probably the only countries that are trying to hold on to 4 strokes.....all Europeans are very fond and proud of their 2 strokes,
I have also had my share of 4 strokes,250s and 450s and only one 250f blew up but I did spend a bundle to keep them fit .
4 strokes have their market,dont have to and will not dissapear,trail riding,commuting,longdistance hauls ,hell list can go on and on....but for racing , weekend motocross warriors??na...
Displacement says it all...why is a 250 2t not allowed to compete against a 250f? That alone said it all to me from the beggining
If 4 strokes are the next real thing should they not be superior to the "old" technology?
dboivin
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dboivin 7/16/2013 8:33pm
7/16/2013 8:33pm
dboivin wrote:
its killing motocross. no one will admit it. once a kid finishes his 85cc bikes....they disappear. no father wants to have a stable full of valve...
its killing motocross. no one will admit it.

once a kid finishes his 85cc bikes....they disappear. no father wants to have a stable full of valve eaters....nor can they afford to. now you just see the really fast kids who attract sponsors continue on in the system.

tellin ya right now. if you brought a 125cc class to the nationals as a pre-pro trainer class it will have full gates busting at the seams....and it will revive the local tracks again with kids burning laps on 2 stroke 125s.
Boxermann wrote:
Not sure how it is where you are but socal has tracks full of riders.since my last 2stroke(rm250) ive had a yz250f rmz450 and crf450.not that...
Not sure how it is where you are but socal has tracks full of riders.since my last 2stroke(rm250) ive had a yz250f rmz450 and crf450.not that much more expensive.you are already in a expensive sport that cost thousands to do and your gonna bitch that much about paying a little more? Get over it,4 strokes are the bikes now.you can still buy a two stroke so be happy.dont get me wrong i bought a 125 for fun.i don't understand complaining so much about something that isn't that bad or to some people a good thing.i would take my 450 over a 250 .i think they are great
missed my point.

4 strokes are great. but technically an 85cc rider that hasn't got the size is tossed onto a big fat 250f at 15 usually. today's motocross is missing a bridge to the big bikes which used to be a 125 (125jr).

bike is light, cheap to maintain and keeps the family at the racing gig for much longer. nowadays they jump the 250f, get their asses handed to them, then when the bike grenades that is usually the nail in the coffin for them.

your delusional if you think a 250f is dependable and cheap to maintain....c'mon. half the privateers on pro tour refuse to run 250's due to high cost of motor maintenance and durability of the bike.
queen of spodes 7/16/2013 8:45pm
7/16/2013 8:45pm
The Rock wrote:
I used to think his two stroke rants were like that one guy who was always posting that four stroke MX bikes needed to be quieter...
I used to think his two stroke rants were like that one guy who was always posting that four stroke MX bikes needed to be quieter but now with the passing of time I can see Joe Newmann was just way ahead of the curve. Took me quite a bit longer to hop on the two stroke train but honest to God I now realize two strokes are superior to four strokes in almost every area...cost, easy to work on, so much lighter, etc. For the record I do realize four strokes are easier to ride, way more tractable, blah blah blah but honestly their advantages IMHO simply don't outweigh their disadvantages.

When will the OEMs (Honda will NEVER offer them though) start phasing out their over priced over weight pigs and give the consumer what they want? In any event I am looking forward to the 300cc glass next year in Europe.
What were the top riders on back in the 60s? Can you remind me what replaced them and why?
dboivin
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dboivin 7/16/2013 8:50pm
7/16/2013 8:50pm
The Rock wrote:
I used to think his two stroke rants were like that one guy who was always posting that four stroke MX bikes needed to be quieter...
I used to think his two stroke rants were like that one guy who was always posting that four stroke MX bikes needed to be quieter but now with the passing of time I can see Joe Newmann was just way ahead of the curve. Took me quite a bit longer to hop on the two stroke train but honest to God I now realize two strokes are superior to four strokes in almost every area...cost, easy to work on, so much lighter, etc. For the record I do realize four strokes are easier to ride, way more tractable, blah blah blah but honestly their advantages IMHO simply don't outweigh their disadvantages.

When will the OEMs (Honda will NEVER offer them though) start phasing out their over priced over weight pigs and give the consumer what they want? In any event I am looking forward to the 300cc glass next year in Europe.
queen of spodes wrote:
What were the top riders on back in the 60s? Can you remind me what replaced them and why?
thought same thing when i read his comment, doesn't know his history well.
burn1986
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burn1986 7/16/2013 8:52pm
7/16/2013 8:52pm
Well, this should be a peaceful thread.
mynewcr250
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mynewcr250 7/16/2013 8:54pm
7/16/2013 8:54pm
bump

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mx836
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mx836 7/16/2013 9:00pm
7/16/2013 9:00pm
slipdog wrote:
I've had nine 4-strokes not counting my Husaberg 501 in the 90's, not one blew up and I loved them all. FYI, the MSRP on a...
I've had nine 4-strokes not counting my Husaberg 501 in the 90's, not one blew up and I loved them all.

FYI, the MSRP on a KTM 250sx is 7,100, so that ain't exactly cheep...

P.S. I love 2- strokes also!
Choppy wrote:
People don't want two-strokes back, they want the prices of the 80's and 90's and all those riding areas to come back. You can't even get...
People don't want two-strokes back, they want the prices of the 80's and 90's and all those riding areas to come back. You can't even get them to add in inflation to those prices.
I just bought a new Kawi 450 and I want two strokes back. What have 4 strokes done positively for this sport? Make the racing more exciting? Nope. Gotten more people involved? Nope. Lighter weight? Nope. More traction....ahhhh....ooooo. Just like a holeshot device...what good is it when everybody has one? Everyone spends money to buy the best, then they are all equal again. Why shouldn't everyone spend less money and be equal on two strokes?! Makes too much sense for some, I guess.
mx836
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mx836 7/16/2013 9:03pm
7/16/2013 9:03pm
And if you haven't blown up a four stroke, you dont ride it enough or you may be slow.
burn1986
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burn1986 7/16/2013 9:05pm
7/16/2013 9:05pm
mx836 wrote:
I just bought a new Kawi 450 and I want two strokes back. What have 4 strokes done positively for this sport? Make the racing more...
I just bought a new Kawi 450 and I want two strokes back. What have 4 strokes done positively for this sport? Make the racing more exciting? Nope. Gotten more people involved? Nope. Lighter weight? Nope. More traction....ahhhh....ooooo. Just like a holeshot device...what good is it when everybody has one? Everyone spends money to buy the best, then they are all equal again. Why shouldn't everyone spend less money and be equal on two strokes?! Makes too much sense for some, I guess.
Yeah, basically everyone is broke and in debt at a higher level.
DocMarten
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DocMarten 7/16/2013 9:22pm
7/16/2013 9:22pm
the problem isnt 4-strokes, its 250Fs and they probably outsell 450s by quite a bit, just like the 125s outsold the 250 smokers when 2-strokes were in style

if you ride every weekend and are a mid pack or better novice rider, you're 250F is only going to last so long

My opinion on the state of motocross in this country is that it will be similar to ATV racing and eventually the MFGs will stop making bikes altogether since no one has money to buy these things.
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JJO741 7/16/2013 9:35pm
7/16/2013 9:35pm
If you don't ride a 2 stroke then FUCK YOU!

.....2 strokes are available to buy. Go buy them. No one is forcing you to ride a 4 stroke.
JeepnMike
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JeepnMike 7/16/2013 9:42pm
7/16/2013 9:42pm
Choppy wrote:
People don't want two-strokes back, they want the prices of the 80's and 90's and all those riding areas to come back. You can't even get...
People don't want two-strokes back, they want the prices of the 80's and 90's and all those riding areas to come back. You can't even get them to add in inflation to those prices.
Good point. If pigs did fly and this did happened, my old butt would be riding again. You have it pretty nailed though. Bikes (AND gear and parts) are way too expensive now and there literally isn't any place to ride anymore on public land. The two stroke analogy from the OP sounds great, but 2 strokes are dang near the same price as a 4 stroke.
CR250Rider
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CR250Rider 7/16/2013 9:46pm
7/16/2013 9:46pm
I could melt a 250F in one day out in the dunes...at least it would be running like a 150 after I was done with it.
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kiwifan 7/16/2013 11:26pm
7/16/2013 11:26pm
The Rock wrote:
I used to think his two stroke rants were like that one guy who was always posting that four stroke MX bikes needed to be quieter...
I used to think his two stroke rants were like that one guy who was always posting that four stroke MX bikes needed to be quieter but now with the passing of time I can see Joe Newmann was just way ahead of the curve. Took me quite a bit longer to hop on the two stroke train but honest to God I now realize two strokes are superior to four strokes in almost every area...cost, easy to work on, so much lighter, etc. For the record I do realize four strokes are easier to ride, way more tractable, blah blah blah but honestly their advantages IMHO simply don't outweigh their disadvantages.

When will the OEMs (Honda will NEVER offer them though) start phasing out their over priced over weight pigs and give the consumer what they want? In any event I am looking forward to the 300cc glass next year in Europe.
Honda, will never offer them, why? is Kawasaki and Suzuki going to?
APLMAN99
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APLMAN99 7/17/2013 12:49am
7/17/2013 12:49am
The Rock wrote:
How would you classify shrinking rider counts at local tracks across the USA? A testament to the awesomeness of four strokes or an indication we've made...
How would you classify shrinking rider counts at local tracks across the USA? A testament to the awesomeness of four strokes or an indication we've made an already expensive sport even more expensive to the point fewer and fewer can afford to race?

I can't even imagine how many blown up 250Fs are languishing in garages due to dads/racers not having the coin to revive them.
Racer counts were shrinking long before the major manufacturers switched their emphasis to four strokes. The zenith of the late 60s to early 80s was not returning even with all the major brands selling primarily two strokes.

I love two strokes, personally, but if you are going to blame four strokes for the low racer count today, you'd have to blame the two stroke for the sharp drop off after the early 80s also.
bd
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bd 7/17/2013 12:58am
7/17/2013 12:58am
Hmmm.... median income is decreasing, cost of living increasing. Is MX increasing faster than inflation? One reason I like my YZs.... my 2006s are pretty much the same machine as the 2013.... and both 125 and 250 are plenty of machine for me
scotttydog
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scotttydog 7/17/2013 4:18am
7/17/2013 4:18am
If 4 strokes were any good then I'd still still have one,
Love my YZ 144!
queen of spodes 7/17/2013 4:33am
7/17/2013 4:33am Edited Date/Time 7/17/2013 4:33am
DocMarten wrote:
the problem isnt 4-strokes, its 250Fs and they probably outsell 450s by quite a bit, just like the 125s outsold the 250 smokers when 2-strokes were...
the problem isnt 4-strokes, its 250Fs and they probably outsell 450s by quite a bit, just like the 125s outsold the 250 smokers when 2-strokes were in style

if you ride every weekend and are a mid pack or better novice rider, you're 250F is only going to last so long

My opinion on the state of motocross in this country is that it will be similar to ATV racing and eventually the MFGs will stop making bikes altogether since no one has money to buy these things.
That's the beauty of a 125 vs 250F. You can buy a 10 year old tiddler and providing the entire bike isn't thrashed, it's relatively easy and cheap to do a full rebuild to get it back in top shape.

I wouldn't give so much as a thought to a used 250F, unless it came from the factory with a dry-sump engine with oil cooler and large oil capacity. Most casual riders aren't going to maintain these machines properly. They'll ride them until something catastrphic happens, or you buy a bike that's been badly abused. Maybe you get one from someone with well detailed maintenance records. I'm not taking that chance. I like 2 strokes but have a KTM dual sport and wouldn't be averse to owning a 450 mx bike if I could make it quiet.

Post a reply to: newmann had it right years ago