Air forks: brilliant or sales killing blunder

captmoto
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captmoto 4/1/2013 6:40pm
4/1/2013 6:40pm
wardy wrote:
From the suspension people i talked to this "air" fork is a remake of an older experiment which the cost of the product is less to...
From the suspension people i talked to this "air" fork is a remake of an older experiment which the cost of the product is less to build and maintain, yet is a "upgrade" marketing tool.

I know i wouldn't want them. but i am old and these are the "new" thing. hell i am not over the 4 stroke thing yet. Smile
Ding, ding,ding!! I heard the same thing. Not anywhere as refined as it could be. I thought it was a marketing move only. I was in the hunt for a new bike and had it narrowed down to 13 RMZ or 12 KXF. I was not going to fall for it, at least not until it gets figured out for the masses.
Bruce372
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Bruce372 4/1/2013 7:36pm
4/1/2013 7:36pm
i am hoping next seasons bikes come with air cooling and drum brakes.
newmann
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newmann 4/1/2013 7:41pm
4/1/2013 7:41pm
Maybe next years bikes will come with a free air pump for the forks....
SwapperMX
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SwapperMX 4/1/2013 7:49pm
4/1/2013 7:49pm
Bruce372 wrote:
i am hoping next seasons bikes come with air cooling and drum brakes.
With a price tag to match, and a new class to race in !!

The Shop

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mxtech1
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mxtech1 4/2/2013 3:46pm
4/2/2013 3:46pm
90% of you wouldn't know or feel the difference between the conventional fork and an air fork in a blind test.

If you don't own a bike that has the air fork, you are just regurgitating information that you have heard in the media.

Support the sport, buy a new bike with air forks and then bring your personal experience to the forum.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 4/2/2013 4:22pm
4/2/2013 4:22pm
mxtech1 wrote:
90% of you wouldn't know or feel the difference between the conventional fork and an air fork in a blind test. If you don't own a...
90% of you wouldn't know or feel the difference between the conventional fork and an air fork in a blind test.

If you don't own a bike that has the air fork, you are just regurgitating information that you have heard in the media.

Support the sport, buy a new bike with air forks and then bring your personal experience to the forum.
Maybe supporting the sport would be buying a KTM two stroke instead? But I don't know what specific mechanism are involved in economics...
Myke
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Myke 4/2/2013 7:04pm
4/2/2013 7:04pm
newmann wrote:
Maybe next years bikes will come with a free air pump for the forks....
moutainbikes do.
makita124
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makita124 4/2/2013 8:58pm
4/2/2013 8:58pm Edited Date/Time 4/2/2013 9:02pm
user760a wrote:
I just spoke to a friend today who just got a 13 RMZ450. He said he really wanted a KX450F but did not want to mess...
I just spoke to a friend today who just got a 13 RMZ450. He said he really wanted a KX450F but did not want to mess with air forks. This reminds me of another guy who I dont really know, a 13 KX450F owner. This guy was asking around at the track, in search of a 12 KX450F owner who would be willing to trade standard forks for his air forks, not sure if he found a taker.

Then there is my personal feeling, if I were in the market for a new bike, I would hunt down a 12 KX450F, simply because I personally want nothing to do with air forks and the constant pressure checks and adjustments

I am starting to think that there are quite a few people who can and will choose a bike with standard forks over the air fork simply because they don't care to mess with yet another part requiring maintainence and constant attention


MB1 Suspension built me these fork caps that are built on a 45 degree angle so you can check pressure so much easier than the stk ones or dont have to take the bars off to adjust pressure with the new caps that are recessed. very trick i think..I had to wait a few weeks for mine cause the caps are so new. they also change the midvalve piston and my fork doesnt have that step feeling in them or harsh then blow through. Its uses smaller od shims I think for a more linear curve for the air fork. Hope this helps the air fork dilema for some people. I even got a gauge and fork presuure pump with the package.
makita124
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makita124 4/2/2013 9:04pm
4/2/2013 9:04pm
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 4/2/2013 9:11pm
4/2/2013 9:11pm
Any if you haters wanna trade your airs for standard Showas ( CRF style ) I'll trade ya!
tobz
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tobz 4/2/2013 10:51pm
4/2/2013 10:51pm
the air forks, which meant having to check air pressures everytime i swing my leg over the thing, was something that stopped me dead in my tracks in even thinking of buying the honda, the twin muffler put the nail in the coffin. Other than those two things, its a nice bike.
user760a
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user760a 4/3/2013 7:01am
4/3/2013 7:01am
TeamGreen wrote:
Any if you haters wanna trade your airs for standard Showas ( CRF style ) I'll trade ya!
Hit Thad Duvall up (GNCC guy, won Unadilla last year, etc)
He apparently put 12 forks on his bikes after the first time the front end collapsed while riding
BIGHEAD1
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BIGHEAD1 4/3/2013 12:18pm
4/3/2013 12:18pm
1. Vital is an ignorance magnet.

2. If you blow a fork seal, you will lose oil before losing air. How? The best analogy is spitting soda out of a straw, does the air pass through the straw leaving the soda behind? No. In the PSF fork there's a pocket machined in the fork tube for the bushings/seals ( you can see it on the machined profile of the fork tube) This is filled with oil. When you have a seal failure the oil will start to leak and it will be constantly refilled as you ride. You will lose pressure due to the increase in air volume inside the fork, but the front end doesn't collapse.

3. The "heat/expansion" thing is bogus too. The forks increase in pressure about the same as a spring fork. about 1-1.5 psi. I am sure most of you that are bitching about the PSF forks.. have 5 psi in your spring forks right now because you never crack the bleed screw.

4 Most of the problem with AIR forks on the national level are the SHOWA air forks.. more specifically the SFF AIR. Which in my opinion is more of a problem with the SFF design than the air itself. This is the first year top 450 riders are running SFF forks as well as AIR. I think AIR is getting the blame for a twisting flex characteristic of the SFF fork. PC loves them, but when you realize Showa gave them distributor rights in return for helping develop it (meaning.. Factory Connection/RG3/MB1 can't run them/sell them unless they want to buy them from PC.. full retail) You have to wonder the motivation is performance or political/financial....
jtomasik
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jtomasik 4/3/2013 3:54pm
4/3/2013 3:54pm Edited Date/Time 4/3/2013 3:55pm
TeamGreen wrote:
This conversation requires an air pump and gauge. That's about it. We're talking production stuff. That's all Jeremy's been running as of late: he loves the...
This conversation requires an air pump and gauge.

That's about it.

We're talking production stuff. That's all Jeremy's been running as of late: he loves the forks on the '13 Honda. I've seen him pound whoops, slam rocks and jump hill sides on STOCK Stuff...he runs the air where he likes it and Voila!

Braaaaap!
Things don't go 'Braaap' anymore. They go fut fut fut fut fut fut fut fut....


They'll dial in the air forks over a couple seasons, all manufacturers will have them, and the riders will never look back.
slipdog
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slipdog 4/3/2013 4:32pm
4/3/2013 4:32pm
jtomasik wrote:
Things don't go 'Braaap' anymore. They go fut fut fut fut fut fut fut fut.... They'll dial in the air forks over a couple seasons, all...
Things don't go 'Braaap' anymore. They go fut fut fut fut fut fut fut fut....


They'll dial in the air forks over a couple seasons, all manufacturers will have them, and the riders will never look back.
I would like to direct the attention of the distinguished gentleman from Golden, Co. to this thread...

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Factory-Two-strokes,1251285
orangecrush
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orangecrush 4/3/2013 4:38pm
4/3/2013 4:38pm
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
1. Vital is an ignorance magnet. 2. If you blow a fork seal, you will lose oil before losing air. How? The best analogy is spitting...
1. Vital is an ignorance magnet.

2. If you blow a fork seal, you will lose oil before losing air. How? The best analogy is spitting soda out of a straw, does the air pass through the straw leaving the soda behind? No. In the PSF fork there's a pocket machined in the fork tube for the bushings/seals ( you can see it on the machined profile of the fork tube) This is filled with oil. When you have a seal failure the oil will start to leak and it will be constantly refilled as you ride. You will lose pressure due to the increase in air volume inside the fork, but the front end doesn't collapse.

3. The "heat/expansion" thing is bogus too. The forks increase in pressure about the same as a spring fork. about 1-1.5 psi. I am sure most of you that are bitching about the PSF forks.. have 5 psi in your spring forks right now because you never crack the bleed screw.

4 Most of the problem with AIR forks on the national level are the SHOWA air forks.. more specifically the SFF AIR. Which in my opinion is more of a problem with the SFF design than the air itself. This is the first year top 450 riders are running SFF forks as well as AIR. I think AIR is getting the blame for a twisting flex characteristic of the SFF fork. PC loves them, but when you realize Showa gave them distributor rights in return for helping develop it (meaning.. Factory Connection/RG3/MB1 can't run them/sell them unless they want to buy them from PC.. full retail) You have to wonder the motivation is performance or political/financial....
"Most of the problem with AIR forks on the national level are the SHOWA air forks.. more specifically the SFF AIR."

Really, what problems?
darren7878 4/4/2013 4:56am
4/4/2013 4:56am
My 13 CRF450 lasted 2.5 hours before the fork seal went.

After that if you pumped up the fork to riding pressure you could hear the air just blowing past the seal. The air pressure also just pumped the fork oil straight out. Zero damping and no racing that weekend.

Also as mentioned before it was incredibly annoying to buy a bike but then have to go out and buy an air pump before I could even ride it. Sad
unknownmxr 4/4/2013 7:13am
4/4/2013 7:13am
Factory forks are torn down at the end of every day. Kind of a hassle for amateurs.

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Camp332
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Camp332 4/4/2013 7:17am
4/4/2013 7:17am
I have the 2013 CRF450, and yeah setting the fork pressure takes a few minutes extra time before I can ride it. However once I ride it, I have forgotten all about the few minutes involved setting it up. Bike is awesome, and the front end feels wayyyyyy better than my 09 with all the Factory Connection doo-dads.

There are some guys here who just don't like change, and that's ok.
motox505
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motox505 4/4/2013 7:41am
4/4/2013 7:41am
I am hearing a lot of mixed reviews on them. A buddy of mine who's been on Hondas for years is getting a Suzuki next. The fork seal issue is a major problem at the local level, many riders are not nearly as proactive as you need to be to ensure you don't blow a seal at the race. This is innovation for the top 1% and nothing more.
MotoTones
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MotoTones 4/4/2013 8:20am
4/4/2013 8:20am
What happens if the seal goes while you are riding it? Do the forks just collapse? Seems like the outdoors will have a lot of privateer guys coming across this problem this year.
orangecrush
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orangecrush 4/22/2013 6:24am
4/22/2013 6:24am
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
1. Vital is an ignorance magnet. 2. If you blow a fork seal, you will lose oil before losing air. How? The best analogy is spitting...
1. Vital is an ignorance magnet.

2. If you blow a fork seal, you will lose oil before losing air. How? The best analogy is spitting soda out of a straw, does the air pass through the straw leaving the soda behind? No. In the PSF fork there's a pocket machined in the fork tube for the bushings/seals ( you can see it on the machined profile of the fork tube) This is filled with oil. When you have a seal failure the oil will start to leak and it will be constantly refilled as you ride. You will lose pressure due to the increase in air volume inside the fork, but the front end doesn't collapse.

3. The "heat/expansion" thing is bogus too. The forks increase in pressure about the same as a spring fork. about 1-1.5 psi. I am sure most of you that are bitching about the PSF forks.. have 5 psi in your spring forks right now because you never crack the bleed screw.

4 Most of the problem with AIR forks on the national level are the SHOWA air forks.. more specifically the SFF AIR. Which in my opinion is more of a problem with the SFF design than the air itself. This is the first year top 450 riders are running SFF forks as well as AIR. I think AIR is getting the blame for a twisting flex characteristic of the SFF fork. PC loves them, but when you realize Showa gave them distributor rights in return for helping develop it (meaning.. Factory Connection/RG3/MB1 can't run them/sell them unless they want to buy them from PC.. full retail) You have to wonder the motivation is performance or political/financial....
so which works better - SFF Air or PSF?
user760a
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user760a 4/22/2013 6:53am
4/22/2013 6:53am
The new dirtrider has an interview with former GNCC champion and current privateer josh strang. Josh apparently paid out of his own pocket for a new set of 12 forks for his 13 Kaw 450 race bike.
Moens_Andy 4/22/2013 7:28am
4/22/2013 7:28am
My experiance with the air forks .

If you r high level rider and often go to places where it is very bumpy (sand tracks) the air forks do remarkably well as they float more on top of the bumps like you r skipping whoops in comparison with the oil forks these forks give a whole other feel on these tracks and dive more into the bumps and requires a lot more upper body strength and ride technique.

The only problem with air forks, in my opinion is that when a fork seal starts to leak you r basically done for the day unless you have spare parts , when oil forks start to leak you probably can manage to ride out the day before you have to change the seals.

just fill them up with oil and your good to go for the next race , with air forks you could fill her up with oil again and give it the psi it needs but that work you have put in will be gone after 2-3 laps and your forks will be down halfway ( yes i have had this problem )

so i would take oil forks over the air forks
orangecrush
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orangecrush 4/22/2013 9:54am
4/22/2013 9:54am
Moens_Andy wrote:
My experiance with the air forks . If you r high level rider and often go to places where it is very bumpy (sand tracks) the...
My experiance with the air forks .

If you r high level rider and often go to places where it is very bumpy (sand tracks) the air forks do remarkably well as they float more on top of the bumps like you r skipping whoops in comparison with the oil forks these forks give a whole other feel on these tracks and dive more into the bumps and requires a lot more upper body strength and ride technique.

The only problem with air forks, in my opinion is that when a fork seal starts to leak you r basically done for the day unless you have spare parts , when oil forks start to leak you probably can manage to ride out the day before you have to change the seals.

just fill them up with oil and your good to go for the next race , with air forks you could fill her up with oil again and give it the psi it needs but that work you have put in will be gone after 2-3 laps and your forks will be down halfway ( yes i have had this problem )

so i would take oil forks over the air forks
So do you realize that SFF Air forks addresses the concerns you highlight with "air" forks?

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