Why did the AMA/Yamaha/Other OEMs settle on 450cc?

Edited Date/Time 1/18/2013 8:15am
Yamaha originally had the 400cc bike, then the 426cc bike and finally came to the 450cc bike which everyone else equalled. Any reason for this? A bit funny now since some people say the bike has too much power and (at times) performs worse than a 350cc bike.
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1/15/2013 5:28pm
I think it's because a 450 was pretty equal if not a little less than equal to a 250... then. Now, with how far technology has come since the beginning of the 4-stroke era, bikes are far superior in power to weight than the 250cc 2stroke counterparts. Most of the advantage comes from weight savings with titanium, carbon fiber, magnesium, etc. The old 4-strokes were pretty heavy compared to today's bikes. And of course the power has increased and become more manageable with EFI and computers and all the new technology that's in the engines themselves.
Ish
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1/15/2013 5:30pm
At the time it took 450cc to try and compete vs a 250cc two stroke ?
slipdog
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1/15/2013 5:40pm
It was 550cc before it was 450cc, they lowered it.
SwapperMX
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1/15/2013 5:48pm
Dont blame Yamaha totally though, they were still at 426cc when Honda released their 450. Yamaha then upped the game and went 450 also. There was plenty of time to have done something regarding four stroke capacity well before this.

The Shop

rohleder644
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1/15/2013 5:55pm
Honda saw yamaha's 426cc's and raised them 24. Yamaha called.


I know nothing about gambling or card games. That's probably not how it should have been said. I can go fish with the best of the best though.
rohleder644
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1/15/2013 6:01pm
Damnit!!! My thumbs aren't an adequate vessel for my wit.
You beat me to it.
CR250Rider
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1/15/2013 6:36pm
Don't forget the evolution of tracks either

now they're fast and smooth, before they were rough, choppy and way more suitable to lighter machines.

Factory machines are much lighter than what you can buy as well
FreshTopEnd
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1/15/2013 8:23pm Edited Date/Time 1/15/2013 8:24pm
The limit was like 560 or something for four strokes for a long long time, until like 2003 or so whe it was reduced to 450. Coop was riding a 540 ktm at some point in 02 or 03, and Smets was on big Ktms and Bergs. Not sure exactly why Yamaha and I guess Honda were coming in under that, but the 450 rule was to limit the size from what the prior rule allowed.

Now the decision to allow Yamaha's 250 against the 125's may be a different thing altogether, but even before that four strokes were allowed some cc increase in that class. They just were junk.
GuyB
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1/15/2013 8:25pm
Ish wrote:
At the time it took 450cc to try and compete vs a 250cc two stroke ?
The four-strokes that were available before Yamaha went all thermonuclear on the design of their 400 were trail bikes. With the old bikes, yes, that made it just about a fair fight.
kiwifan
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1/15/2013 9:22pm
Honda saw yamaha's 426cc's and raised them 24. Yamaha called. I know nothing about gambling or card games. That's probably not how it should have been...
Honda saw yamaha's 426cc's and raised them 24. Yamaha called.


I know nothing about gambling or card games. That's probably not how it should have been said. I can go fish with the best of the best though.
Correction Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki brought out 450's
SwapperMX
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1/15/2013 10:52pm
kiwifan wrote:
Correction Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki brought out 450's
Kawasaki and Suzuki were several years later !!
lumpy790
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1/16/2013 7:57am
Original rule allowed up to 650cc
gotwings
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1/16/2013 8:48am
400 was too little, 500 was too much.
TJ 755
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1/16/2013 8:51am
1997 KTM 540. first four stroke to make SX main ridden by Smail

wardy
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1/16/2013 8:53am
didn't the rules change to lower the cc limits so that a ktm 525 didn't holeshot every national and get full page photos every where? at least I would believe that they (OEM's) from japan likely didn't like that much. Hence the reason they likely won't let in the A/F 500 which would be very competitive with todays 450s.

but i am sure some can correct me.
kiwifan
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1/16/2013 12:17pm
kiwifan wrote:
Correction Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki brought out 450's
SwapperMX wrote:
Kawasaki and Suzuki were several years later !!
if true, I stand corrected
dcg141
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1/16/2013 3:29pm
It was originally 650. Guy Cooper was blowing up holeshots at every national on a bored and stroked KTM 525. The year Honda came out the CRF 450..the first one btw... it was changed to 450.
Lone Wolf
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1/16/2013 3:31pm Edited Date/Time 1/16/2013 3:36pm
kiwifan wrote:
Correction Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki brought out 450's
SwapperMX wrote:
Kawasaki and Suzuki were several years later !!
kiwifan wrote:
if true, I stand corrected
I'm pretty sure it happened as follows (not sure when the KTM400 switched to 450cc):

First CRF450 - 2002
First YZF450 - 2003
First RMZ450 - 2005
First KXF450 - 2006

I have always wondered why they settled on 450cc. I would guess it was because 450cc was predicted to be equivelant to 250cc two stroke performance at the time. Or perhaps it was the maximum capacity the AMA rules allowed in 2002?

I remember hearing 450cc was considered the "ideal" capacity. Any bigger and the additional weight and wheel spin would result in slower lap times. Any smaller and the horsepower deficit would lead to slower lap times. I have no idea if there is any truth to this, however.
dcg141
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1/16/2013 3:38pm Edited Date/Time 1/16/2013 3:38pm
SwapperMX wrote:
Kawasaki and Suzuki were several years later !!
kiwifan wrote:
if true, I stand corrected
Lone Wolf wrote:
I'm pretty sure it happened as follows (not sure when the KTM400 switched to 450cc): First CRF450 - 2002 First YZF450 - 2003 First RMZ450 -...
I'm pretty sure it happened as follows (not sure when the KTM400 switched to 450cc):

First CRF450 - 2002
First YZF450 - 2003
First RMZ450 - 2005
First KXF450 - 2006

I have always wondered why they settled on 450cc. I would guess it was because 450cc was predicted to be equivelant to 250cc two stroke performance at the time. Or perhaps it was the maximum capacity the AMA rules allowed in 2002?

I remember hearing 450cc was considered the "ideal" capacity. Any bigger and the additional weight and wheel spin would result in slower lap times. Any smaller and the horsepower deficit would lead to slower lap times. I have no idea if there is any truth to this, however.
First year for the 450SX was 03. They used the 400 crank and a 525 piston in the RFS engine.
daveoevo
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1/16/2013 3:44pm Edited Date/Time 1/16/2013 3:46pm
TJ 755 wrote:
1997 KTM 540. first four stroke to make SX main ridden by Smail [img]https://enduro360.smugmug.com/Bikes/KTM-540/DSC0900/882896894_9uqYS-L.jpg[/img]
1997 KTM 540. first four stroke to make SX main ridden by Smail

Smail was a super hero for even going out on to a sx track on that. Any one who has ridden one of the old long stroke 4popper will know what I mean.
rohleder644
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1/17/2013 5:27am
Didn't dowdy go from the 125 to the 520 as well? Hell of a transition.
zookie
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1/17/2013 7:39am
AMA:


OEMs:
wardy
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1/17/2013 10:40am
people are tired of hearing it.

but most of all people are fed up and now just simply are not racing or buying new bikes.


so yep do you realize how much the people bitching about not having 2 stroke choices from these oems are tired of complaining about it?

but when the customer speaks. sometimes companies listen. I bleed red. BuT Orange with a link is doing pretty damn good. and well they are not done yet.

the programs they are doing (KTM) in the amatuer levels right now, and some of the new dealerships starting up and putting thier hat in the ring. guess we will see.
OldYZRider1
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1/17/2013 12:13pm
Why did they put in a 450cc limit? Same reason for the high homologation requirements and allowing the 250cc four strokes in the 125cc class thereby killing off the 125's; to severely limit any non-Japanese companies from competing against the four Japanese firms that pretty much controlled the sport. Their nearest competitior KTM didn't have a 450cc and would have to develop one likely at greater financial risk than the Japanese "keiretsu" could. KTM was insolvent in 1992 and was trying to scratch their way back in the game and the Japanese with the AMA's complicity created "obstacles" to their advancement.
FreshTopEnd
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1/17/2013 12:22pm
Was down at the shop yesterday and there were a line of KTM, Gas Gas and Husaberg smokers, about six of various engine sizes from 150-300. No SX's, but there are several actively advertised by NorCal dealers around here right now. Almost shot of photo. I was Jonesing for sure.

People should talk less and buy more if they really are serious about buying smokers. Give the KTM a try; most folks this serious about bikes move on from model to model anyway, and you're probably not going to lose any more selling a used 125-250SX than a used 450 4t when you're ready to move on.
Crush
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1/17/2013 2:16pm
slipdog wrote:
It was 550cc before it was 450cc, they lowered it.
Wasn't it open?

I know guys down here and in Euro were running HUsky 610s and supposedly Smets KTM or Husaberg was a 650?

Either way, it was whatever was capable...

Really tho... Henry said in his first interview he could jump the triple at the yamaha test track, in first, from a standing start, after the preceeding corner.

That right there should have been enough for the AMA to say, 350, don't come back until it's solid. I think 250 two stroke and 350 four stroke is probably about right
slipdog
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1/17/2013 2:55pm
slipdog wrote:
It was 550cc before it was 450cc, they lowered it.
Crush wrote:
Wasn't it open? I know guys down here and in Euro were running HUsky 610s and supposedly Smets KTM or Husaberg was a 650? Either way...
Wasn't it open?

I know guys down here and in Euro were running HUsky 610s and supposedly Smets KTM or Husaberg was a 650?

Either way, it was whatever was capable...

Really tho... Henry said in his first interview he could jump the triple at the yamaha test track, in first, from a standing start, after the preceeding corner.

That right there should have been enough for the AMA to say, 350, don't come back until it's solid. I think 250 two stroke and 350 four stroke is probably about right
I don't know about FIM, but the AMA rulebook said up to 550cc 4-stroke when I looked back in the late 90's. I have a few of the rulebooks in my attic somewhere, but I'm too lazy to go dig through old dusty boxes. Wink

I got to ride a Husaberg501 at a few 4-stroke nationals back in '97 and it was waayyyy faster than my '96 Cr250, but at the time the trade off for a 260+lb pig wasn't worth the extra power. I rode Brad Hagseth's BBR CR250 framed XR400 that year and laughed at how slow it was compared to the 'Berg!

I imagine the GP bikes were amazing.
TerryK
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1/17/2013 3:15pm
slipdog wrote:
I don't know about FIM, but the AMA rulebook said up to 550cc 4-stroke when I looked back in the late 90's. I have a few...
I don't know about FIM, but the AMA rulebook said up to 550cc 4-stroke when I looked back in the late 90's. I have a few of the rulebooks in my attic somewhere, but I'm too lazy to go dig through old dusty boxes. Wink

I got to ride a Husaberg501 at a few 4-stroke nationals back in '97 and it was waayyyy faster than my '96 Cr250, but at the time the trade off for a 260+lb pig wasn't worth the extra power. I rode Brad Hagseth's BBR CR250 framed XR400 that year and laughed at how slow it was compared to the 'Berg!

I imagine the GP bikes were amazing.
This is correct. It was never 650cc, at least not in modern times.
rmpilot
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1/17/2013 4:32pm
slipdog wrote:
It was 550cc before it was 450cc, they lowered it.
Crush wrote:
Wasn't it open? I know guys down here and in Euro were running HUsky 610s and supposedly Smets KTM or Husaberg was a 650? Either way...
Wasn't it open?

I know guys down here and in Euro were running HUsky 610s and supposedly Smets KTM or Husaberg was a 650?

Either way, it was whatever was capable...

Really tho... Henry said in his first interview he could jump the triple at the yamaha test track, in first, from a standing start, after the preceeding corner.

That right there should have been enough for the AMA to say, 350, don't come back until it's solid. I think 250 two stroke and 350 four stroke is probably about right
those big bikes were the open class.
kiwifan
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1/17/2013 5:51pm
slipdog wrote:
It was 550cc before it was 450cc, they lowered it.
Crush wrote:
Wasn't it open? I know guys down here and in Euro were running HUsky 610s and supposedly Smets KTM or Husaberg was a 650? Either way...
Wasn't it open?

I know guys down here and in Euro were running HUsky 610s and supposedly Smets KTM or Husaberg was a 650?

Either way, it was whatever was capable...

Really tho... Henry said in his first interview he could jump the triple at the yamaha test track, in first, from a standing start, after the preceeding corner.

That right there should have been enough for the AMA to say, 350, don't come back until it's solid. I think 250 two stroke and 350 four stroke is probably about right
The big problem you have with a 350 cc 4-stroke limit is the bikes will all be highly strung to get power ot match 2-stroke 250's, therefore maybe less reliable, you know, etc etc etc ...then also for the average Joe blogg that will be harder to ride than perhaps a 2-stroke 250.

Looks at the KTM350, revs to the effing moon, puts out some decent HP though, need to keep at at the redline to keep up with other bikes, not sure how long they will last as more stressed (riden at pro level) thans 450's....

Yeah not convinced that 350cc limit is the way to go personally.

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