Where are the direct injected 2ts?

Slamdrew
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Slamdrew
Edited Date/Time 12/22/2012 6:24pm
I would be very surprised if this topic hasn't already been discussed, and yes I have seen a few random videos and articles, but-

Why isn't this a bigger deal? The direct injected 2 stroke sleds are absolutely amazing. I would love to see a pro actually try and go fast on a newly developed direct injected two stroke motocross bike. If everyone is so concerned about epa regulations, why are direct injected two strokes not being made? Is it still because of the focus on 4 strokes? What do you think?
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TerryB
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TerryB 12/21/2012 9:38pm
12/21/2012 9:38pm
Since you brought up sleds: People like the 4-stroke because it's easier to ride. Wide torque curve makes it easy to "stay on the pipe". You're not tap-dancing with the shift lever and slipping the clutch to keep the revs in the sweet-spot.

Now, if it were possible to build a compact lightweight continuously variable transmission, (which, in effect, sleds have), suitable for mx bikes, we'd never see a 4-stroke mx'er again.
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 12/21/2012 9:56pm
12/21/2012 9:56pm
CVT would be pretty badass. Although, the people who don't like the idea of electric bikes probably wouldn't like that either.
bvm111
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bvm111 12/21/2012 10:08pm
12/21/2012 10:08pm
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close!

Second, I remember when moto was known as the most physicaly demanding sport in the world... now all I hear is about how 4foopers are so much "easier" to ride..... I understand that to mean I am a lazy fat out of shape person that still wants to ride.... dude get a quad if you want the easy way out... otherwise get on a 2 stroke, train your ass off.... and ride some moto!!!!!

2 strokes are moto... nough said.... word!
gsxr6
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gsxr6 12/21/2012 10:09pm
12/21/2012 10:09pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
CVT would be pretty badass. Although, the people who don't like the idea of electric bikes probably wouldn't like that either.
honda had an automatic works prototype in the 80s. was said to shave a second a lap by rj himself. i dont think i could time the jumps well without a traditional setup( once u are towed off the jumps u know what gear to hit them in.)

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TerryB
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TerryB 12/21/2012 10:52pm
12/21/2012 10:52pm
bvm111 wrote:
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close! Second, I remember when moto was known as the...
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close!

Second, I remember when moto was known as the most physicaly demanding sport in the world... now all I hear is about how 4foopers are so much "easier" to ride..... I understand that to mean I am a lazy fat out of shape person that still wants to ride.... dude get a quad if you want the easy way out... otherwise get on a 2 stroke, train your ass off.... and ride some moto!!!!!

2 strokes are moto... nough said.... word!
How would cvt not be suitable for mx? My hypothetical included "compact and lightweight", so I am left to assume you are talking about how effective or usable it might be from the riders standpoint? Ever heard of snowcross? Ever ridden a snowmobile? I think you are a little ignorant on the subject.
Lone Wolf
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Lone Wolf 12/21/2012 10:57pm
12/21/2012 10:57pm Edited Date/Time 12/21/2012 11:00pm
bvm111 wrote:
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close! Second, I remember when moto was known as the...
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close!

Second, I remember when moto was known as the most physicaly demanding sport in the world... now all I hear is about how 4foopers are so much "easier" to ride..... I understand that to mean I am a lazy fat out of shape person that still wants to ride.... dude get a quad if you want the easy way out... otherwise get on a 2 stroke, train your ass off.... and ride some moto!!!!!

2 strokes are moto... nough said.... word!
Bro, when people say that 4-strokes are "easier to ride," they mean they are easier to ride fast. That is, they allow virtually any rider to turn quicker lap times than they would on an equivalent 2-stroke. I wouldn't say riding a 4-stroke is any less physically demanding than riding a 2-stroke. If anything, they are harder to ride in that regard, because of the extra weight, gyroscopic forces, etc. they possess.
I apologise for stating what most would consider the blatantly obvious. However, your post led me to believe you are either naive, ignorant or just plain stupid.

Back on topic, I am interested to see how direct injected two strokes perform, if they ever are developed. It seems that it is only a matter of time before a manufacturer has a go.
gsxr6
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gsxr6 12/21/2012 11:26pm
12/21/2012 11:26pm Edited Date/Time 12/21/2012 11:28pm
As a side note, direct injection applications are on engines with a narrow operating range ie: snowmobiles with cvt and outboard engines. A cvt trans setup might help with some of direct injections limitations. A lot of guys love a rekluse right? just think how much energy one might save with the shifter and clutch gone. Just to go crazy with it, add the possibilities of traction control in there for good measure.
gsxr6
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gsxr6 12/21/2012 11:33pm
12/21/2012 11:33pm
I imagine a roadrace style 125cc engine. They make like 50 horsepower right? would a cvt mask the lack of low end lol?
TerryB
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TerryB 12/21/2012 11:43pm
12/21/2012 11:43pm
Easily tunable for peak torque rpm vs peak hp rpm, depending on traction conditions too.
xray52
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xray52 12/22/2012 12:07am
12/22/2012 12:07am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2012 12:10am
bvm111 wrote:
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close! Second, I remember when moto was known as the...
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close!

Second, I remember when moto was known as the most physicaly demanding sport in the world... now all I hear is about how 4foopers are so much "easier" to ride..... I understand that to mean I am a lazy fat out of shape person that still wants to ride.... dude get a quad if you want the easy way out... otherwise get on a 2 stroke, train your ass off.... and ride some moto!!!!!

2 strokes are moto... nough said.... word!
Lone Wolf wrote:
Bro, when people say that 4-strokes are "easier to ride," they mean they are easier to ride [b]fast[/b]. That is, they allow virtually any rider to...
Bro, when people say that 4-strokes are "easier to ride," they mean they are easier to ride fast. That is, they allow virtually any rider to turn quicker lap times than they would on an equivalent 2-stroke. I wouldn't say riding a 4-stroke is any less physically demanding than riding a 2-stroke. If anything, they are harder to ride in that regard, because of the extra weight, gyroscopic forces, etc. they possess.
I apologise for stating what most would consider the blatantly obvious. However, your post led me to believe you are either naive, ignorant or just plain stupid.

Back on topic, I am interested to see how direct injected two strokes perform, if they ever are developed. It seems that it is only a matter of time before a manufacturer has a go.
Yes, what he said. I love the sound of two strokes but the fact is I just cannot ride it as fast AS long as I can a four stroke. Stick shift cars are cool too but automatics seem to have made their mark! its the nature of humans...have the ability to do the same thing with less effort..OF COURSE! Since going fastER in any given situation is the goal for MOST of us (not all), reasonable cost increases for maintenance and purchase (unless exorbitant) will not deter us from seeking an easier way to go fast.
Radical
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Radical 12/22/2012 1:58am
12/22/2012 1:58am
I ride a 125 2 stroke because of how it makes me ride: All Out!!!!
I like the challenge, the workout, and having to always push my self as hard as I can.
In my opinion it's more fun.

But granted, in a half hour of so on a 250f and I'd probably turn faster laps.
Lone Wolf
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Lone Wolf 12/22/2012 2:13am
12/22/2012 2:13am
Radical wrote:
I ride a 125 2 stroke because of how it makes me ride: All Out!!!! I like the challenge, the workout, and having to always push...
I ride a 125 2 stroke because of how it makes me ride: All Out!!!!
I like the challenge, the workout, and having to always push my self as hard as I can.
In my opinion it's more fun.

But granted, in a half hour of so on a 250f and I'd probably turn faster laps.
There's nothing wrong with that, man. If you think you will have the most fun riding a 125, then that is exactly the bike you should own. It is the nostalgic idiots with an irrational hatred for four strokes who come on here trying to convert the masses that piss me off.

Sorry for the thread jack.
resetjet
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resetjet 12/22/2012 5:03am
12/22/2012 5:03am
" That is, they allow virtually any rider to turn quicker lap times than they would on an equivalent 2-stroke."

That is all we ask my friend. 250F vs 250 2t. We will see who turns the fastest lap times.
Drtbykr
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Drtbykr 12/22/2012 5:04am
12/22/2012 5:04am
What xray52 said, very astute thinking.

More profitable parts fiche on a four stroke, learnt the hard way.
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racerx217 12/22/2012 5:15am
12/22/2012 5:15am
unknownmxr 12/22/2012 5:16am
12/22/2012 5:16am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2012 5:16am
CVT won't work in mud conditions. Also they sap a lot of power relative to gear trans. Not an issue on a sled where you can add a cylinder to make up the friction losses.
That being said, rider mowers have a fully enclosed cvt.
newmann
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newmann 12/22/2012 6:44am
12/22/2012 6:44am
Lone Wolf wrote:
There's nothing wrong with that, man. If you think you will have the most fun riding a 125, then that is exactly the bike you should...
There's nothing wrong with that, man. If you think you will have the most fun riding a 125, then that is exactly the bike you should own. It is the nostalgic idiots with an irrational hatred for four strokes who come on here trying to convert the masses that piss me off.

Sorry for the thread jack.
Wow, you get pissed of on a moto board? Obviously must not be married!Laughing
newmann
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newmann 12/22/2012 6:49am
12/22/2012 6:49am
bvm111 wrote:
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close! Second, I remember when moto was known as the...
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close!

Second, I remember when moto was known as the most physicaly demanding sport in the world... now all I hear is about how 4foopers are so much "easier" to ride..... I understand that to mean I am a lazy fat out of shape person that still wants to ride.... dude get a quad if you want the easy way out... otherwise get on a 2 stroke, train your ass off.... and ride some moto!!!!!

2 strokes are moto... nough said.... word!
Lone Wolf wrote:
Bro, when people say that 4-strokes are "easier to ride," they mean they are easier to ride [b]fast[/b]. That is, they allow virtually any rider to...
Bro, when people say that 4-strokes are "easier to ride," they mean they are easier to ride fast. That is, they allow virtually any rider to turn quicker lap times than they would on an equivalent 2-stroke. I wouldn't say riding a 4-stroke is any less physically demanding than riding a 2-stroke. If anything, they are harder to ride in that regard, because of the extra weight, gyroscopic forces, etc. they possess.
I apologise for stating what most would consider the blatantly obvious. However, your post led me to believe you are either naive, ignorant or just plain stupid.

Back on topic, I am interested to see how direct injected two strokes perform, if they ever are developed. It seems that it is only a matter of time before a manufacturer has a go.
Imagine, someone who starts a post with "Bro" calling others naive, ignorant or just plain stupid. You just can't make this stuff up.....bro.Laughing

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TerryB
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TerryB 12/22/2012 8:44am
12/22/2012 8:44am
unknownmxr wrote:
CVT won't work in mud conditions. Also they sap a lot of power relative to gear trans. Not an issue on a sled where you can...
CVT won't work in mud conditions. Also they sap a lot of power relative to gear trans. Not an issue on a sled where you can add a cylinder to make up the friction losses.
That being said, rider mowers have a fully enclosed cvt.
CVT doesn't work in mud? What about ATV's?

On a related note: My 2007 Ford 500 AWD has a CVT in it and it hasn't hiccup'd in 180,000 miles of shitty, muddy, snowy abuse. I feel sorry for that poor car. I'm sure it has seen more off pavement use than 90% of SUV's on the road.

From a stand-still, if you mash the gas to the floor, it stays pegged at peak rpm until the car reaches it's lame, electronically governed top speed of 110 mph. Kind of cool, but the unwavering high rpm shriek freaks people out. They are used to an auto that shifts, which is one reason they didn't sell well.

My best friend is the service manager at the local Ford dealer, and he says they just don't have any problems with the CVT.
three9zero
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three9zero 12/22/2012 9:04am
12/22/2012 9:04am Edited Date/Time 12/22/2012 9:05am
Direct injected 2 strokes are under the hoods of BRP Ski Doo snomobiles, and under the cowlings of Evinrude Outboard boat motors......Rotax builds the engines in Austria. Hello KTM, time to borrow some parts.....
As I had a Summit E-tec 800 last year I can tell you that the engine rocks, no issues and runs like a champ.
Lone Wolf
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Lone Wolf 12/22/2012 12:21pm
12/22/2012 12:21pm
newmann wrote:
Imagine, someone who starts a post with "Bro" calling others naive, ignorant or just plain stupid. You just can't make this stuff up.....bro.Laughing
I started the post with the word "bro" making fun of the guys stupid post (i.e. something he would say). That obviously went over your head. Even if I had been serious, I don't see why it would mean I am naive, ignorant or stupid anyhow.

You are right - I am not married. When I read exaggerated or fabricated 4-stroke hate on here, it does piss me off a bit. I certainly don't get angry about it though, brah.
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VET176 12/22/2012 12:27pm
12/22/2012 12:27pm
bvm111 wrote:
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close! Second, I remember when moto was known as the...
first of all CVT is lame and wouldnt be suited for moto at all.... not even close!

Second, I remember when moto was known as the most physicaly demanding sport in the world... now all I hear is about how 4foopers are so much "easier" to ride..... I understand that to mean I am a lazy fat out of shape person that still wants to ride.... dude get a quad if you want the easy way out... otherwise get on a 2 stroke, train your ass off.... and ride some moto!!!!!

2 strokes are moto... nough said.... word!
Lone Wolf wrote:
Bro, when people say that 4-strokes are "easier to ride," they mean they are easier to ride [b]fast[/b]. That is, they allow virtually any rider to...
Bro, when people say that 4-strokes are "easier to ride," they mean they are easier to ride fast. That is, they allow virtually any rider to turn quicker lap times than they would on an equivalent 2-stroke. I wouldn't say riding a 4-stroke is any less physically demanding than riding a 2-stroke. If anything, they are harder to ride in that regard, because of the extra weight, gyroscopic forces, etc. they possess.
I apologise for stating what most would consider the blatantly obvious. However, your post led me to believe you are either naive, ignorant or just plain stupid.

Back on topic, I am interested to see how direct injected two strokes perform, if they ever are developed. It seems that it is only a matter of time before a manufacturer has a go.
newmann wrote:
Imagine, someone who starts a post with "Bro" calling others naive, ignorant or just plain stupid. You just can't make this stuff up.....bro.Laughing
"Bro" is used a lot in NZ language. Being a small country of 4.5 million, means most people are related to each other. Tongue
Lone Wolf
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Lone Wolf 12/22/2012 12:40pm
12/22/2012 12:40pm
resetjet wrote:
[b]" That is, they allow virtually any rider to turn quicker lap times than they would on an equivalent 2-stroke."[/b] That is all we ask my...
" That is, they allow virtually any rider to turn quicker lap times than they would on an equivalent 2-stroke."

That is all we ask my friend. 250F vs 250 2t. We will see who turns the fastest lap times.
To be honest, I think that most of us nobody's would be quicker on the 250F. Pro's are a different story. I would like to see 250 two strokes in the 250F class. I don't think a two stroke of any capacity could be ridden faster than a modern 450F by the same rider.

For what its worth, we have a 125 class, a 250 class (whatever stroke) and an open (450) class down here in New Zealand. For whatever reason, the 125 class hasn't proved to be all that popular since they brought it back, and the 250 class is full of four strokes. Daryll King has won it on a YZ250 the last two years, though.
newmann
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newmann 12/22/2012 1:11pm
12/22/2012 1:11pm
VET176 wrote:
"Bro" is used a lot in NZ language. Being a small country of 4.5 million, means most people are related to each other. Tongue
Aussie humor doesn't go over my head though!
Lone Wolf
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Lone Wolf 12/22/2012 1:33pm
12/22/2012 1:33pm
VET176 wrote:
"Bro" is used a lot in NZ language. Being a small country of 4.5 million, means most people are related to each other. Tongue
Haha. Nice one! A lot of people do say "bro" down here. Aren't you a Kiwi expat, though?
E-man811
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E-man811 12/22/2012 2:29pm
12/22/2012 2:29pm
Radical wrote:
I ride a 125 2 stroke because of how it makes me ride: All Out!!!! I like the challenge, the workout, and having to always push...
I ride a 125 2 stroke because of how it makes me ride: All Out!!!!
I like the challenge, the workout, and having to always push my self as hard as I can.
In my opinion it's more fun.

But granted, in a half hour of so on a 250f and I'd probably turn faster laps.
My opinion exactly.
jtiger12
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jtiger12 12/22/2012 2:35pm
12/22/2012 2:35pm
on the topic of CVT's, Nissan wants every one of their cars to have a CVT trans option by 2015 if I remember correctly. My wife's altima has one. GREAT road trip car. Smooth as glass, and just coasts at 80 on the highway. trans is factory warrantied till 150K.

Given my experience, i do not see how a CVT would be well fashioned to a sport like MX. maybe harescrambles and enduro.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/22/2012 3:47pm
12/22/2012 3:47pm
I don't think the answer is to make the smokers better, more hight tech, closer to four strokes. No one really needs better, I suck equally on an 2013 KXF450 than I do on a pos 125 from 93, and I still lap some really crazy slow turds on both bikes. We just need a growing low budget series or movement that can turn people over from couch, or the bleachers, while keeping those that are already won over.

The claim that four strokes being faster (which I totally agree with) is pointless in an only smoker class. Let both ideas run, and everybody can be happy.

I see a future for the smokers, seems this last year we have seen these two-stroke events popping up. That is totally good for the sport despite if you dig valves or not.

I honestly think 125 are better for the sport, since almost everybody say they are more fun to ride (which is the reason why people start riding, and continue doing it), and if they are in a majority, then being a bit slower wont be that noticed Grinning
looks450
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looks450 12/22/2012 4:41pm
12/22/2012 4:41pm
KTM have the tech and proven that it is reliable in testing. BUT. Until their hand is forced with new Euro emmission laws, they will keep that little jem up their sleeve. Carbs are still working and selling well, and they are cheaper than FI. Why bring out new tech when you arent being pushed as a company and it would just raise the RRP of the bike.

Looks
TerryB
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TerryB 12/22/2012 5:57pm
12/22/2012 5:57pm Edited Date/Time 12/22/2012 9:13pm
jtiger12 wrote:
on the topic of CVT's, Nissan wants every one of their cars to have a CVT trans option by 2015 if I remember correctly. My wife's...
on the topic of CVT's, Nissan wants every one of their cars to have a CVT trans option by 2015 if I remember correctly. My wife's altima has one. GREAT road trip car. Smooth as glass, and just coasts at 80 on the highway. trans is factory warrantied till 150K.

Given my experience, i do not see how a CVT would be well fashioned to a sport like MX. maybe harescrambles and enduro.
For those who I suspect don't fully understand the nature of a Continuously Variable Transmission: It achieves what motor builders have been trying to achieve for years: Smooth, linear, maximum power delivery. It allows a motor to maintain a constant rpm when under power. Imagine your motor running steadily at either its peak torque or horsepower, regardless of actual speed. It is automatically doing what you think you can do better with your inferior mind and body.

Doesn't matter whether you mate it to a two or four stroke engine, in concept, it is superior. Whether engineers bring it to fruition before electric motors completely take over, (with their similar linear/constant torque/hp delivery) is just a matter of time vs engineering cost.

DJ is correct in the aspect of folks not liking it.

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