Injuries: Is it really the 450?

dkg
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dkg
Edited Date/Time 8/25/2012 8:15am
Did a little looking at relative fast laps and average lap times for a few events this year. Many have blamed the 450 power and speed for the cause of the injuries this year. Seems to me it might be more a case of the 450 class simply having bad luck than anything else. Your thoughts?

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reded
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reded 8/21/2012 10:58am
8/21/2012 10:58am
They're both going roughly the same speed in order to turn comparable lap times but the gyroscopic effects of the bigger motor make the 450 harder to manhandle. It can lead to some compromising situations where the end result is a soil sample.
newmann
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newmann 8/21/2012 11:04am
8/21/2012 11:04am
You see guys pulling out of stuff that's going bad on the 250F. On the 450, it just seems to go bad.

Same reason I prefer a 125/150 over a 250 2 stroke.
hellion
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hellion 8/21/2012 11:11am
8/21/2012 11:11am
We just had this conversation a week or two ago. Like religion and politics someone's opinion is their opinion and will not change without a negative experience. However I think like Newmann, that shit happens fast on a 450 and is often not correctable. And a 250 makes it's fast times by being faster into and through the corners, and being able to manhandle the bike in the tech sections.
dkg
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dkg 8/21/2012 11:37am
8/21/2012 11:37am
I don't have a conviction one way or the other on this issue. At the same time I don't want to fall in the trap of correlation equalling causation. Frankly, the math on gyroscopic effect and weight differentials, etc. are way beyond my abilities. I can readily see these factors making it more difficult to correct something going wrong, but, to what extent, I have no idea. The lap time comparrison, was interesting though. Speed differential doesn't seem to be a factor in the injuries that are occuring in the 450 class.

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burn1986
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burn1986 8/21/2012 11:39am
8/21/2012 11:39am
Well, you have to wonder at some point, when almost all of the top guys are out for injuries.
newmann
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newmann 8/21/2012 12:03pm
8/21/2012 12:03pm
burn1986 wrote:
Well, you have to wonder at some point, when almost all of the top guys are out for injuries.
And the majority of 250 riders are still in it.
MX558
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MX558 8/21/2012 12:07pm
8/21/2012 12:07pm
I do know my 450 is way faster down the straights then my son's 280 big bore so yeah shit happens very quickly. If I wasn't so lazy I'd ride a smaller bike for sure. lol
Skip376
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Skip376 8/21/2012 12:12pm
8/21/2012 12:12pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2012 2:07pm
In 1998 you only had 4 factory riders lining up because of injuries.

Some years are just worse for injuries than others, but it really doesn't seem to discriminate against what type of bike it is.
burn1986
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burn1986 8/21/2012 12:22pm
8/21/2012 12:22pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2012 12:24pm
It just seems that with the 450s, if anyone pushes it, they crash, and when they crash, they usually get injured pretty badly. I don't really remember this many injuries resulting from the 500s, and these were more powerful than the 450s, and roughly the same weight.
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gsxrcr28 8/21/2012 12:27pm
8/21/2012 12:27pm
I think its a combination of things, a big one is that the riders are pushing the pace faster and faster all the time. The days are gone that you could smoke weed, party all night and still be one of the top riders in the world, you have to be in peak physical condition. That being said depending on the situation, I do believe a 450 will throw you down on the ground much harder than 250 2 stroke or a 250 4 stroke.
UpTiTe 8/21/2012 12:30pm
8/21/2012 12:30pm
can someone please inform me on which 450 rider is out because his 450 is to fast or to heavy?

Personally I can't think of one 450 rider that got hurt because his bike was to fast.

Canard? Nope, he crashed rolling a triple.
Reed? Nope, he crashed changing up lines and his bike stuck in the mud.
RV? Nope, he put his foot down and twisted his knee.


So who then got hurt because the bike was to fast?
mxracer816
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mxracer816 8/21/2012 12:31pm
8/21/2012 12:31pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2012 12:32pm
"And all this time Tony had me believing it was the universe causing these accidents!"
burn1986
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burn1986 8/21/2012 12:35pm
8/21/2012 12:35pm
Les Smith, Michael Byrne, James Stewart,. Most of the pros who've crashed in ways other than bike related are coming back after long injuries.
reded
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reded 8/21/2012 12:37pm
8/21/2012 12:37pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2012 12:39pm
Byrne and Stewart.

Damn, Burn beat me to it.
burn1986
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burn1986 8/21/2012 12:39pm
8/21/2012 12:39pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2012 12:41pm
add Ben Townley, Tommy Hahn, Davi Millsaps. Here's some of Reed's injuries - Broken Tibia and Fibula, Broken Ribs, Broken T6 Vertebrae and a Torn ACL
reded
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reded 8/21/2012 12:41pm
8/21/2012 12:41pm
Funny, I don't recall that many of the top guys ever being out when the 250 two strokes were considered the "big bikes".
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watson 8/21/2012 12:45pm
8/21/2012 12:45pm
UpTiTe wrote:
can someone please inform me on which 450 rider is out because his 450 is to fast or to heavy? Personally I can't think of one...
can someone please inform me on which 450 rider is out because his 450 is to fast or to heavy?

Personally I can't think of one 450 rider that got hurt because his bike was to fast.

Canard? Nope, he crashed rolling a triple.
Reed? Nope, he crashed changing up lines and his bike stuck in the mud.
RV? Nope, he put his foot down and twisted his knee.


So who then got hurt because the bike was to fast?
x2. And Stewart? He's gotten plenty of licks on even a 125. Some years the injury rates are worse. Let's not turn it into something it isn't. I've read an interview (I think on RacerX) a while back where Chad Reed said he thought the fuel injected 450's made the sport safer for riders, especially in Supercoss.
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rcm406 8/21/2012 12:45pm
8/21/2012 12:45pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2012 12:46pm
Just look at the 250 class for the obvious answer! Who's hurt? Dean, that's it right? Why is it that riders in the 450 class are dropping like flies and hardly anyone is injured in the 250 class.

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thehuck.0
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thehuck.0 8/21/2012 12:45pm
8/21/2012 12:45pm
reded wrote:
Funny, I don't recall that many of the top guys ever being out when the 250 two strokes were considered the "big bikes".
Can you not see the difference in the speed that they are going now, compared to when it was all 2 strokes...or the differences of the tracks...or the differences of the technique....or the edge that they ride on....
burn1986
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burn1986 8/21/2012 12:45pm
8/21/2012 12:45pm
Josh Demuth, Brett Metcalfe
reded
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reded 8/21/2012 12:50pm
8/21/2012 12:50pm
reded wrote:
Funny, I don't recall that many of the top guys ever being out when the 250 two strokes were considered the "big bikes".
thehuck.0 wrote:
Can you not see the difference in the speed that they are going now, compared to when it was all 2 strokes...or the differences of the...
Can you not see the difference in the speed that they are going now, compared to when it was all 2 strokes...or the differences of the tracks...or the differences of the technique....or the edge that they ride on....
Why yes, I can see the correlation between a bike with 200 more cubic centimeters of displacement and the faster speeds. I'm not leading any two stroke parade here, just stating facts. Don't be a jagoff.
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Overdrive 8/21/2012 12:51pm
8/21/2012 12:51pm
I see your point on the times, but let me ask this. Would the lap times be faster if they were riding 750 or 1000 cc 4 stokes. Probably not because they are pushing the limits of speed as it is with the power of the 250 and 450. Now ask yourself would there be more injuries with a 750 or 1000 cc? I think there would be due to weight and the amount of power that would cause you to get into trouble and out of control easier.
reded
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reded 8/21/2012 12:54pm
8/21/2012 12:54pm
Overdrive wrote:
I see your point on the times, but let me ask this. Would the lap times be faster if they were riding 750 or 1000 cc...
I see your point on the times, but let me ask this. Would the lap times be faster if they were riding 750 or 1000 cc 4 stokes. Probably not because they are pushing the limits of speed as it is with the power of the 250 and 450. Now ask yourself would there be more injuries with a 750 or 1000 cc? I think there would be due to weight and the amount of power that would cause you to get into trouble and out of control easier.
This guy gets it.
thehuck.0
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thehuck.0 8/21/2012 1:01pm
8/21/2012 1:01pm
reded wrote:
Funny, I don't recall that many of the top guys ever being out when the 250 two strokes were considered the "big bikes".
thehuck.0 wrote:
Can you not see the difference in the speed that they are going now, compared to when it was all 2 strokes...or the differences of the...
Can you not see the difference in the speed that they are going now, compared to when it was all 2 strokes...or the differences of the tracks...or the differences of the technique....or the edge that they ride on....
reded wrote:
Why yes, I can see the correlation between a bike with 200 more cubic centimeters of displacement and the faster speeds. I'm not leading any two...
Why yes, I can see the correlation between a bike with 200 more cubic centimeters of displacement and the faster speeds. I'm not leading any two stroke parade here, just stating facts. Don't be a jagoff.
Not being a jagoff...but can you see the correlation to the riders pushing the edge more now, than ever before? Can you see the difference between the track designs now, compared to when there were less crashes? Don't be a douche bag.
burn1986
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burn1986 8/21/2012 1:05pm
8/21/2012 1:05pm
It's certainly not about 2 vs 4. I think everyone has been wondering why we are only watching Dungey (and sometimes Reed) in the outdoors ride by himself for the second or third year in a row. There aren't any indoor-only contracts that are keeping the top riders out of the Nats. Usually Reed or Windham is out there, but they are injured.
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Flip109 8/21/2012 1:05pm
8/21/2012 1:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2012 1:08pm
I've said it before on here somewhere. But my take on it is(for the sake of conversation).....On 250 2 strokes the riders pushed the bikes beyond their limits. On these fast 450's the bikes are pushing the riders beyond their limits. That being said I'll take a 450 four banger over a 250 stroker any day because the 450 is easier to ride to me.
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peelout 8/21/2012 1:05pm
8/21/2012 1:05pm
maybe it's just me, but when i wreck on a smoker, i tumble over the ground and scatter from my bike.

when i crash my 450, it pummels the living shit out of me like it's a job.
neverwasfastenuf 8/21/2012 1:15pm
8/21/2012 1:15pm
peelout wrote:
maybe it's just me, but when i wreck on a smoker, i tumble over the ground and scatter from my bike. when i crash my 450...
maybe it's just me, but when i wreck on a smoker, i tumble over the ground and scatter from my bike.

when i crash my 450, it pummels the living shit out of me like it's a job.
Yep, several riders have complained that the big bore 4 strokers seemed to gather them up in the carnage.
Skip376
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Skip376 8/21/2012 2:03pm
8/21/2012 2:03pm
reded wrote:
Funny, I don't recall that many of the top guys ever being out when the 250 two strokes were considered the "big bikes".
1998.... Does anyone read?
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Hank_Thrill 8/21/2012 2:03pm
8/21/2012 2:03pm Edited Date/Time 8/21/2012 2:14pm
-250's (regardless of stroke) limit how fast a person can go around the track.

- Such is not the case on 450's. When top pros get together battling, they slowly keep turning up the pace like a thermostat, which seems to lead to a higher rate of implosion compared to someone running a 250 wide open.

-Mike Alessi is the only person to compete in every 450 event thus far this year.

-Only three riders in the 450 class competed in all the main events.

-Personally, I wouldn't mind if the lap times slowed 2-3 seconds if it meant the superstars of the sport didn't have to spend 25-50% of the time on the injured list the past two out of three years.

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