Progression? Not so much........

Overdrive
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Edited Date/Time 8/14/2012 1:01am
So Mike Brown gets a 6th overall today, what Brown and Dowd have done today and this season is really incredible and congrats to both of them.

This leaves me to ponder two questions:

Do the top guys retire to early and does this expand riders thinking about retirement age?

What does this say about the "progression" of the sport when Mike Brown finishes 6th? Most people would say a person like Brown and Dowd shouldn't even be able to finish in the top 20 because the new guys are just so much faster than the riders of old, WHO consequently ARE OLD compared to the competition.

Sure some top guys are injured, but really? He was almost top 5, give him another few weekends and he may just put his bike on the podium. Are KTM's really just that good........ Smile
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rmpilot
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8/11/2012 4:01pm
now, lets just see if roger decoster can do it...
8/11/2012 4:06pm
I too have been extremely impressed by these two. Makes you wonder about how fast those riders really were/are. Obviously they wouldn't be that high up on the results if everyone was healthy but its still amazing nonetheless.
ATKpilot99
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8/11/2012 4:20pm
Isn't Brown still racing off road? And Dowd besides still being in great shape is racing his home track. Just 10 or so years ago Dowd was still a threat for a podium here so there's a progression.
8/11/2012 4:23pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Isn't Brown still racing off road? And Dowd besides still being in great shape is racing his home track. Just 10 or so years ago Dowd...
Isn't Brown still racing off road? And Dowd besides still being in great shape is racing his home track. Just 10 or so years ago Dowd was still a threat for a podium here so there's a progression.
Or Dowd is just 10 years older...

The Shop

ATKpilot99
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8/11/2012 4:27pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Isn't Brown still racing off road? And Dowd besides still being in great shape is racing his home track. Just 10 or so years ago Dowd...
Isn't Brown still racing off road? And Dowd besides still being in great shape is racing his home track. Just 10 or so years ago Dowd was still a threat for a podium here so there's a progression.
Or Dowd is just 10 years older...
Thats true. It's hard to say. Look at Windham. His career has spanned over a couple eras really and he can still bring it. I don't know, it would be interesting to hear his take on the speed now as opposed to then.
dcg141
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8/11/2012 4:32pm
Personally I just take it for what it is. 2 extremely fast guys that have a few years on them. Brown has extended his pro career by doing off-road and is in excellent shape. I can't think of many sports where older competetors are not doing well on limited basis. If you were good once with training you can be good later in life. Dana Torres almost made another Olympic team at 45.
srellis
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8/11/2012 4:42pm
I highly doubt either one of them would be able to keep up with the demands of racing at that level for an entire season. Two or three races with a few weeks break in between, yes. Every week, no.
Ramrod
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8/11/2012 5:03pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2012 5:04pm
When you look up the word racer on Wikipedia, Mike Brown's picture comes up.

Brown and Dowd are studs. They prepared well for these races. Bikes have progressed, not racers as much.
TeamGreen
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8/11/2012 5:32pm
Actually IF the damn KTM clutch was worth a shit...Brownie wouldv'e had some MUCh better races to begin with!

Now, that I'm done ranting...

It seems to me that the Sport and it's athletes are changing.

Excellent Equipment is available to EVERYONE.

Good tracks, good training info/techniques and good medical technology (Read "Ortho"...) is avail to EVERYONE, too...hence...a lot of us "Old Guys" aren't as "Torn-Up" as the Generation(s) before us; because, we were fortunate enough to have good Doctors to put us Back TOGETHER...literally.

Look at RV2: His Injuries from 2010 were Career Ending just a few years previous...and to think, he not only got put back together; but, he was on the bike REALLY QUICKLY.

Then there's the Dubach Factor: As some of us Older Guys get "older"...we keep riding just for the fun of it...some of us...like Doug...actually make it our business and or our "recreation" & drag a lot of other people out to the track & get them riding awfully damn fast, too...all the while HE is riding damn near as fast as he did when he was running up front in the Nat's/SX.

Then there's the bikes...altho many in here will FooFoo the point: The Equipment you buy off of the Showroom floor is Soooooo damn close to the Factory stuff that it's not even believable.

All of this has contributed to making the sport faster and broader when it comes to the development of the sport...It (The Sport) and most everyone participating in it on a continual basis are...getting Faster.

The Resource base for this sport is so vast and, yet, available to all that it allows for MANY to develop and...KEEP...the skills...in some cases...for as long as they're willing to work for it...and as long as their bodies will hold out...

Which...is...

Longer!

* Disclaimer: Yes! I remember when Elsinores were a little more than a grand and it seems like we could all go out and ride at the lot on the corner. Things HAVE changed; yet, we've still got it pretty DAMN GOOD! Example: If Angry Ol' BoobyM had f'd up his leg 40 days ago, instead of 40 years ago...? He'd probably still have it. "Progress"...
TeamGreen
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8/11/2012 5:35pm
srellis wrote:
I highly doubt either one of them would be able to keep up with the demands of racing at that level for an entire season. Two...
I highly doubt either one of them would be able to keep up with the demands of racing at that level for an entire season. Two or three races with a few weeks break in between, yes. Every week, no.
Not tryin' to be a smart-ass; but, you are ABSOLUTELY wrong simply due to the 2 guys you are talking about...

If either one of them really "wanted" to do this...?

Remember, both of these guys have a lot of "Moto-Wisdom" built on a lot of years of Pro-Racing.
Hando
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8/11/2012 5:46pm
Technology is equaling the playing field IMO...

a stock bike with pipes and suspension setup is pretty damn good.

i'd put $$ on RV2 showing up at a national on a kx450 with pipes and revalved suspesnion..and getting top 5
level
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8/11/2012 6:37pm
This season is very awkward. Brown is riding great and beating some top guys. People like Short, Brayton, Grant, etc. I expected to be running with Dungey.
Toste
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Fantasy
8/11/2012 6:49pm
I think a lot of guys have what it takes physically and mentally to be competitive into their 30s & even their 40s.

Problem is, most start taking it super seriously straight out of the womb and get burned out on the grind (training/traveling/injuries) by their mid-20s.

If I'm not mistaken, Brown & Dowd both didn't start racing MX till they were teenagers.
chrisbuehler
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8/11/2012 6:56pm
Toste wrote:
I think a lot of guys have what it takes physically and mentally to be competitive into their 30s & even their 40s. Problem is, most...
I think a lot of guys have what it takes physically and mentally to be competitive into their 30s & even their 40s.

Problem is, most start taking it super seriously straight out of the womb and get burned out on the grind (training/traveling/injuries) by their mid-20s.

If I'm not mistaken, Brown & Dowd both didn't start racing MX till they were teenagers.
Dowdy didn't start racing until he was 21 I believe
8/11/2012 7:04pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2012 7:05pm
I would say that Southwick is where riders who possess a certain riding style can get far better results than on any other track.
moto282
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8/11/2012 7:08pm Edited Date/Time 8/11/2012 7:10pm
I agree that a 450 makes it easier to do what they're doing (think it would be different on a 250F or 250 two stroke), but it's still very impressive. Also Southwick has a history of unexpected riders doing well and I think the 450 field not being deep this year plus all the injuries make it a little easier... You put back in RV, Reed, Stewart, Canard, Izzi, Metty, etc... and those guys drop down some positions. But credit where it's due... those "old farts" are still fast! lol
Hando
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8/11/2012 8:26pm
The fact that Dowd and Brown are still QUALIFYING for nationals is impressive.
Hank_Thrill
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8/11/2012 8:46pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2012 5:36pm
Excellent post!

It leads me to believe that the increase in pace the sport has witnessed as a whole over the past seven years has a lot to do with bike technology and development. John Dowd is nearly 50 years old! He was probobably flying around the track faster today than he would have on his factory Yamaha back in 1995, despite his body being in more youthful condition fifteen years ago.

A lot of people compare different generation of motocross stars, which really isn't fair since different generations race on different tracks and equipment. Rick Johnson said in circa 2005 (Daytona Supercross), that if the pros of his generation were somehow able to race with the Reed and Carmichael at that time, they would find a way to battle with those guys. Even Johnson believed this about himself when asked if he could run with Ricky and Chad. Today's finishes by Dowd and Brown really seem to solidify that statement.
8/11/2012 10:49pm
srellis wrote:
I highly doubt either one of them would be able to keep up with the demands of racing at that level for an entire season. Two...
I highly doubt either one of them would be able to keep up with the demands of racing at that level for an entire season. Two or three races with a few weeks break in between, yes. Every week, no.
I agree with you. At this point in the season these guys have been going pretty much non-stop since January.

This wears on all of their bodies and on some of their pocket books.
Overdrive
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8/12/2012 6:54am
Excellent post! It leads me to believe that the increase in pace the sport has witnessed as a whole over the past seven years has a...
Excellent post!

It leads me to believe that the increase in pace the sport has witnessed as a whole over the past seven years has a lot to do with bike technology and development. John Dowd is nearly 50 years old! He was probobably flying around the track faster today than he would have on his factory Yamaha back in 1995, despite his body being in more youthful condition fifteen years ago.

A lot of people compare different generation of motocross stars, which really isn't fair since different generations race on different tracks and equipment. Rick Johnson said in circa 2005 (Daytona Supercross), that if the pros of his generation were somehow able to race with the Reed and Carmichael at that time, they would find a way to battle with those guys. Even Johnson believed this about himself when asked if he could run with Ricky and Chad. Today's finishes by Dowd and Brown really seem to solidify that statement.
I agree hank I think the past champs if they were in their prime would find a way to compete with and beat the young guns of today. Its just amazing to me that the champs of old are still able to come out and compete even when they are past their prime.

So if Brown gets a 6th where would that put RC if he lined up? I know I have heard on here many times that RC would not be able to hang any more but.................I think he would eventually podium if he did several races like Brown has done.
8/12/2012 6:57am
Brown and Dowd can both go fast....it's just that they can't maintain that speed for 30 minutes plus 2 laps like they used to be able to do. I think Brown's second moto showed he has the speed to run up front and it was amazing to watch him maintain a great race pace. I don't think a racer like Millsap would have been able to pass a younger Brown late in a moto.
Overdrive
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8/12/2012 6:58am
srellis wrote:
I highly doubt either one of them would be able to keep up with the demands of racing at that level for an entire season. Two...
I highly doubt either one of them would be able to keep up with the demands of racing at that level for an entire season. Two or three races with a few weeks break in between, yes. Every week, no.
TripleFive wrote:
I agree with you. At this point in the season these guys have been going pretty much non-stop since January. This wears on all of their...
I agree with you. At this point in the season these guys have been going pretty much non-stop since January.

This wears on all of their bodies and on some of their pocket books.
Take a look at the injury list for this year, there have been very few people (young or old) who have been able to keep up with the demands of racing at this level. An old guy who knows where his limits are might just come out ahead in the points where it ultimately counts. Smile
8/12/2012 7:34am
If old guys could get MX only or go to Europe they could ride longer but there's a reason we never see Dowd or Brown on a SX gate anymore.
S.Loyer
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8/12/2012 7:41am Edited Date/Time 8/12/2012 7:42am
Brown is no joke and his fitness isn't either.
He was on fire yesterday.

I believe the more common thing people overlook for retirements or early retirements is that riders have simply exhausted there resources in the sport. They have a harder time finding rides and or money to make it all worth while. The time away from their families isn't worth peanuts which is why we see a lot of riders just pack it in, in their lates 20's and early 30's. Its not solely the fact that the pace is picking up and younger kids are coming in.

If a lot of these in their early 30's mid 30's were still able to lock in big money contracts each year they would still race on. And if they didn't have to race SX, they would certainly do it. But going non-stop from January-September. Will take a toll on a older and those older bodies and no one wants to be away from their families that much. Specially when you get older and realize they are everything you have and worked for.

I wouldn't say the bikes make it easier for what Brown and Dowd are doing either.
Everyone out their, well a majority of everyone out there (excluding the factory guys) is on the same equipement.
They all have the same advantages and disadvantages.
mrquick
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8/12/2012 7:57am
I made the comment in another thread that after watching RC ride at the ranch I thought he could be on the box at the
wick and was crucified for making such an outrageous comment. I was told he was too old and was washed up
to ride with todays professional riders.People tend to forget how fast some of these "old" riders are.
pilotdude
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8/12/2012 8:08am
As a 40+ A rider, I have ridden against a lot of guys over the past 30 years. What I have found is that the guys who know how to go really fast will always have that knowledge. What they may not always have is the fitness. But with good nutrition and a proper training program and trainer, age is not the barrier it used to be in motocross.
8/12/2012 8:09am
Mad props to the old guys! I agree good medicine has extended the career of recent riders, but the training it takes to do this, these guys must be animals. Just as a matter of inspiration to old guys all over. These guys are great!
But the topic of the post is progression. To use an exception that an old guy doing well shows no progression, would assume the new guys are not bringing new techniques, and if they are that the old guys are not continuing to learn. But all in all, exceptions don't really tell us anything other than "they are exceptional" you have to look at the group as a whole and throw out the outliers. When you do that, you'll find retirement at an early age is still mandatory.
TM
jmar
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8/12/2012 8:17am
Both are amazing riders, and my hat is off to them both. But getting ready for a few races a year vs doing an entire season of both supercross and the outdoors is a whole different ball game.
8/12/2012 8:22am Edited Date/Time 8/12/2012 8:42am
I think comes down to a couple of things.

Firstly as has already been mentioned... with a few guys injured, the 450 class isn't very deep right now. Obviously with the return of RV, TC, CR, JS, maybe an on form Kyle Regal (KR he has had an appalling year) - then a rider like Mike Brown is going to get pushed down to the lower order of the top 10 or maybe just outside it. In that case the result would look a bit less weird. However lets face it, it's still awesome.

Secondly, (using Mike as the main example) we all underestimated how good he is.

Not everyone retires with a bang or on their best form. I remember Mickael Pichon having good years in 2004 and 2005 on Martin Honda. Both times he was in title contention. He then signed for KTM in 06 but was badly injured almost instantly at the first round and thus retired. When he came back for a one off appearance at the British GP in 2009 I believe it was, he did bloody good and was damn near on the podium. But as surprising as that was, it wasn't THAT surprising in some ways because I still had this image of him from 2005 as one of the top riders. I half expected it.

Mike and John may not have formally retired at their best but the truth is they're fu@king good and have a ton of experience. These guys may joke about being the "old" but underneath they've got pride and are going out there to do well.
8/12/2012 8:40am
mrquick wrote:
I made the comment in another thread that after watching RC ride at the ranch I thought he could be on the box at the wick...
I made the comment in another thread that after watching RC ride at the ranch I thought he could be on the box at the
wick and was crucified for making such an outrageous comment. I was told he was too old and was washed up
to ride with todays professional riders.People tend to forget how fast some of these "old" riders are.
The difference is fitness. I think Ricky would have to get back into race form before going out and doing 30+2 laps at the Wick. RC has a much different body type than that of Dowd and Brown. As Aldon Baker once said, Ricky can just look at a McDonalds and gain 5 pounds. He doesn't naturally have that slim racers shape. That's why when he retired he had put on some weight. But with the right training and a some time to prepare I think he could do it. Once your fast you are always fast.

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