big LL pile up sequence shots

8/3/2012 6:24am
How many riders in that class were disqualified for jumping on the yellow flags that were prominently displayed? Or is that rule not in effect at LLs?
Hoov
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8/3/2012 6:28am
How many riders in that class were disqualified for jumping on the yellow flags that were prominently displayed? Or is that rule not in effect at...
How many riders in that class were disqualified for jumping on the yellow flags that were prominently displayed? Or is that rule not in effect at LLs?
Mike, I think only red cross stops jumping...not sure though. By the way, anyone that doesnt know this already, if this man comments on flagging, take it to the bank! Best flagger EVER!
BuDz34
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8/3/2012 6:32am
lostboy819 wrote:
The Flagger is doing his job, you just get all these guys who think they know everything and they think they are too cool so they...
The Flagger is doing his job, you just get all these guys who think they know everything and they think they are too cool so they talk shit about the flaggers and I bet none of these blowhards have ever flagged before.
dude apparently you have never been in a situation where the flaggers have failed to prevent wrecks after the initial.. i have both been hit because of a failed flagger and have unfortunately ran some over because of a failed flagger either way the flagger needs to be in their faces maybe not on the track but damn near on it waving the shit out of that flag and pointing at each rider to acknowledge or something...

When flagging i dont care if they tell you to stay 20' off the track if someone goes down i am gonna be there on top of them doing what i can to prevent further injuries.. I know what i felt like in this situation and its not good at all and if people still are jumping and heading straight towards the pile up your wrong no matter what you were told!!!
wardy
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8/3/2012 6:37am
Roscoe33 you are correct!!!!

Would be nice if every rider flagged once in a condition where good flagging happens. We have that at our track if a rider offers to flag we let them (normally we have all the flaggers we need on race day). Usually by the time practice is over they have a whole new perspective of what goes on out there.


On that photo, a flagger many times cna't cross a track and is likely better not too, with that many riders on the track. We had a flagger get hit about 5 years ago and break his leg pretty badly. NOT the riders fault as the flagger stepped into a bike as it was going by to "get to the other side". thankfully the rider ddin't go down and the flagger made a full recovery.

But flagging is likely the most import job out on the track and all tracks should put good if not great effort in getting that done. NOthing is more troubling then "attention in the pits we need flaggers" this only shows lack of preperation......

The Shop

Moto Soul Mag
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8/3/2012 6:42am
How about the first rider that crashed and got pegged multiple times. That looked really bad. Is he okay?
GrapeApe
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8/3/2012 6:44am
BuDz34 wrote:
dude apparently you have never been in a situation where the flaggers have failed to prevent wrecks after the initial.. i have both been hit because...
dude apparently you have never been in a situation where the flaggers have failed to prevent wrecks after the initial.. i have both been hit because of a failed flagger and have unfortunately ran some over because of a failed flagger either way the flagger needs to be in their faces maybe not on the track but damn near on it waving the shit out of that flag and pointing at each rider to acknowledge or something...

When flagging i dont care if they tell you to stay 20' off the track if someone goes down i am gonna be there on top of them doing what i can to prevent further injuries.. I know what i felt like in this situation and its not good at all and if people still are jumping and heading straight towards the pile up your wrong no matter what you were told!!!
I was laid up for 3 months and contemplated never riding a bike again, all because of a flagger not paying attention. Spectators actually had to throw rocks at the asshole flagger to get his attention. That was 7 years ago and my neck still isn't 100%. I'd be the first in line to put an ass-kicking on a flagger that neglected his duty and put riders in harm's way. That being said, there's no evidence from those photos that the flagger did anything wrong. Sometimes shit happens despite best efforts.
Hoov
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8/3/2012 6:53am Edited Date/Time 8/3/2012 3:01pm
I know you can't expect guys you pull out of a crowd at 7 am and give a 10 minute speech on flagging to do it all right, and they sure shouldn't be out on the track. There are always a few "professional" flaggers to put on the high risk areas, and generally, I agree that no flagger should be on the track. Having said that, I can't count the times I've had to break that rule over many years of flagging. It's bad when a crash happens...It's unacceptable to have secondary crashs as a result of the first. A flagger MUST stop the oncoming riders. I have found that a combination of getting as close as possible to the riders (safely), getting the flag in their faces, and barking out a loud "HEY!" usually gets their attention and can prevent further damage. It sounds like you had it covered DC, and the pile up STILL happened...sometimes you just can't stop it.

I'd like to recount a situation I had in Long Island NY in 2000 at the National Arenacross. It was the 18'th lap of 20...250 main event. Pedro Gonzalas motor locked as he left the jump face of the catipult...the jump I was flagging from. His bike went upside down and planted Pedro into the landing. Greg Rand was about 1.5 seconds behind him...my focus was down track and I threw the redcross flag. Hit Greg right accross the goggles, nearly cleaned him off the bike (I have since appologized for that part), knocked the red cross out of my hand and left it at the bottom between the jumps. Denny Stephenson was coming through the rhythm section and approaching the run up to the big jump. (Do you guys have any idea how fast things happen in racing?) The only thing I could think of to do was grab 2 other flags, ran out in the middle of the jump, and held them out as wide as I could (NOT the smartest thing I ever did I'll tell ya). Denny looked up just at the last second, saw me and swerved to the right to miss me. He avoided the pile on the left side of the track and landed fine (although I think he had to change underwear afterwards) I'm sure I saved Limb, and possibly the LIVES of three riders by that move.
dboivin
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8/3/2012 7:05am
lostboy819 wrote:
For every one flagger who does not do his job there are 25 riders who don't pay attention to the flagger anyway and the best flagger...
For every one flagger who does not do his job there are 25 riders who don't pay attention to the flagger anyway and the best flagger in the world could not change the outcome.
i'm not gonna disagree with you here. this is very true as well. specially at this big of an event where kids want to perform (not lose time) at an obstacle.

Davey: i know its not realistic to have every flagger be a pro, but i do think that flagger shoulda left his/her box because of the severity of the crash and location. As a flagger you gotta get the riders attention even more on something like this and sitting 20' off side track waving the yellow just don't do it.

that being said, I think you guys put on a wonderful even and do a super job. Theres always gonna be bad instances like this, less of them would be great. Smile
sc961
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8/3/2012 7:13am
dboivin wrote:
i'm not gonna disagree with you here. this is very true as well. specially at this big of an event where kids want to perform (not...
i'm not gonna disagree with you here. this is very true as well. specially at this big of an event where kids want to perform (not lose time) at an obstacle.

Davey: i know its not realistic to have every flagger be a pro, but i do think that flagger shoulda left his/her box because of the severity of the crash and location. As a flagger you gotta get the riders attention even more on something like this and sitting 20' off side track waving the yellow just don't do it.

that being said, I think you guys put on a wonderful even and do a super job. Theres always gonna be bad instances like this, less of them would be great. Smile
Did you read DC's post?

He specifically mentioned a flagger well ahead of that jump, as well as that flagger both doing their jobs.

I don't think anyone's opinion has much value that wasn't standing there watching directly. How can anyone access the situation from a few still photos of a crash?

Although they were very nice shots.

From past experience, the flagging at LL's has been very good.
newmann
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8/3/2012 7:23am
GrapeApe wrote:
Over watered track? The track looks perfect to me for that time of day. Hit the banner pole? Are you f'in kidding me? Bozo that built...
Over watered track? The track looks perfect to me for that time of day.

Hit the banner pole? Are you f'in kidding me?

Bozo that built the flagger stand in the wrong place? How can you determine that from a couple of still photos?

Maybe the flagger and track crew did everything wrong here, but that would be for people on the scene to determine not vital members viewing still photos taken from an awkward angle. The only person I would feel comfortable scolding from the pics is the guy on the Kawi that thought it was a good idea to huck the jump on yellow when everyone around him backed off.

I hope the guy in white that gets t-boned by the Honda is okay. He didn't look to be in a hurry to get up and out of there.
Hit the banner pole? Are you f'in kidding me?

Yeah, I can see where that would never happen with 40 C class riders on the track. They should not have even wrapped them with haybales, right Grape?Huh

Tumblin
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8/3/2012 7:34am
Before my parents allowed me to race I flagged for our club's Saturday night TT's. My cousin was up visiting and I got him in on the action also. These events typically ran into the next morning with stellar turn out of both racers and spectators. The 250 novices of course were always horrific for getting a race cleanly underway and it was very common for spectators sitting in the back of their Pickups in the first turn to end up with a leather clad racer in their laps after first turn mayhem.
This night was particularly bad and ran into the next day. After that stressful night ended my cousin and I were back home bedded down in the living room in our sleeping bags. Yet I was still dodging that 250 novice class and trying to save others as well as myself well into my own dreams. At one moment there they were wadding into the wall, over the wall and through the wall and my cousin just stared on into the abyss of carnage, so I'm running after him to get him to wave his flag, meanwhile ripping my t-shirt off and standing over his sleeping bag waving and mumbling frantically to start flagging! Well it must have been pretty convincing because he stands up and starts doing the same... and then we both woke and laughed our asses off!
GrapeApe
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8/3/2012 7:51am
newmann wrote:
[i]Hit the banner pole? Are you f'in kidding me?[/i] Yeah, I can see where that would never happen with 40 C class riders on the track...
Hit the banner pole? Are you f'in kidding me?

Yeah, I can see where that would never happen with 40 C class riders on the track. They should not have even wrapped them with haybales, right Grape?Huh

I have no idea WTF you're blathering on about now, but the thought that the stack up started because the first guy hit that pole on the left in your picture is absolutely fucking stupid.
GuyB
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8/3/2012 11:14am
I'm not sure what you guys are looking at. What he's doing looks right to me. He's watching the downed riders from his flagstand, and also motioning which way to go to avoid getting caught up in it.
Jharper
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8/3/2012 11:32am
flagger not giving a fuck at all... hope everyone is alright. i know jordan webber sustained some serious injuries. but sounds like hell make a full...
flagger not giving a fuck at all...
hope everyone is alright. i know jordan webber sustained some serious injuries. but sounds like hell make a full recovery.
http://jaredbolton.com/category/photos/

ha You know bolt on? Funny dude
8/3/2012 11:51am Edited Date/Time 8/3/2012 11:52am
BuDz34 wrote:
dude apparently you have never been in a situation where the flaggers have failed to prevent wrecks after the initial.. i have both been hit because...
dude apparently you have never been in a situation where the flaggers have failed to prevent wrecks after the initial.. i have both been hit because of a failed flagger and have unfortunately ran some over because of a failed flagger either way the flagger needs to be in their faces maybe not on the track but damn near on it waving the shit out of that flag and pointing at each rider to acknowledge or something...

When flagging i dont care if they tell you to stay 20' off the track if someone goes down i am gonna be there on top of them doing what i can to prevent further injuries.. I know what i felt like in this situation and its not good at all and if people still are jumping and heading straight towards the pile up your wrong no matter what you were told!!!
Just like Johhny O-hannah lol. The flagger can't prevent wrecks all he can do is warn the riders and its the riders responsibility to proceed with caution. The flaggers are doing their job, the riders are not and sometimes there is a pile up, its called racing .
watson
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8/3/2012 1:11pm
In my racing experience, I've been in more situations where the riders were being dumb than a flagger not doing their job. I imagine this goes double at the biggest Amateur Motocross race in the world.
look out below
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8/3/2012 3:07pm
Maybe they need to move a flagger there, right before that table is where there was a big pile up last year in the plus 30...
Maybe they need to move a flagger there, right before that table is where there was a big pile up last year in the plus 30 class. My friend was number 12 in that seqence.
dboivin wrote:
that crash last year was brutal. his bike got landed on by like 30 riders...i do remember that one. he literally must have had to buy...
that crash last year was brutal. his bike got landed on by like 30 riders...i do remember that one. he literally must have had to buy almost a new bike after it.
I remember it first hand- but I didn't hit him Smile

I also remember he was in a wierd spot. I saw the yellow flag in the corner before but could not see the bike or rider because it was behind a hill. The only reason I did not take that line is because I saw one dude get out of shape going up the face of that table and thought "that doesn't look right". So I moved to the other side of the track. Ouch I just hurt my arm patting myself on the back Laughing
Moto Soul Mag
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8/3/2012 3:56pm
Is Jordan Weber the kid that got drilled?
I think we have maybe gotten a little too used to people getting hurt, when the fact this kid ended up a crumpled mess on the track hardly gets a mention in the conversation. That was really nasty looking.
8/3/2012 5:20pm
Maybe they need to move a flagger there, right before that table is where there was a big pile up last year in the plus 30...
Maybe they need to move a flagger there, right before that table is where there was a big pile up last year in the plus 30 class. My friend was number 12 in that seqence.
dboivin wrote:
that crash last year was brutal. his bike got landed on by like 30 riders...i do remember that one. he literally must have had to buy...
that crash last year was brutal. his bike got landed on by like 30 riders...i do remember that one. he literally must have had to buy almost a new bike after it.
Then there were people on Vital who said Kawasaki or LLs should give him a new bike.
8/5/2012 9:48am
Jharper wrote:
ha You know bolt on? Funny dude
That Bolt-On guy is pretty awesome but sucks at taking pictures...

As for the rest of the discussion, I have no real input. It was one of those things that happen in racing and it's not very fair to blame anyone.
chrisbuehler
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8/5/2012 9:59am
dboivin wrote:
thats why tracks need flaggers with brains. flagger should be right up in those riders face making sure they didn't launch it. its very easy to...
thats why tracks need flaggers with brains. flagger should be right up in those riders face making sure they didn't launch it. its very easy to convey urgency or seriousness through body language. that flagger is not conveying the body language of an obstruction upon landing. Heck i don't even think hte flagger has a clear view of the original crashers because of the positioning behind the hill.
Or flaggers that have actually raced or rode a bike a couple times in their life? If you wanted to join one of the local clubs, you had to work the races and flag. It's not that fucking hard! That dude should be on the edge of the track, not 10ft off it. Nothing unsafe about being on the edge of the track. His fatass was prob sitting in a lawnchair before that crash happened
fmfred
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8/5/2012 12:46pm
Is Jordan Weber the kid that got drilled? I think we have maybe gotten a little too used to people getting hurt, when the fact this...
Is Jordan Weber the kid that got drilled?
I think we have maybe gotten a little too used to people getting hurt, when the fact this kid ended up a crumpled mess on the track hardly gets a mention in the conversation. That was really nasty looking.
Is that dude OK? It looked like the 2nd person to hit him Knocked him out. Hitting the dirt sucks.
DC
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8/5/2012 1:00pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2012 1:02pm
Wow, were you guys there? Are you addressing this situation based on actually seeing what happened or just the context of this photo?

There is no "local club" to join because there are no races at Loretta Lynn's but this one and the ATV race to flag, and there are few tracks in the area. That "fatass" flagger had been there for two decades. He's seen more crashes than he probably cares to remember. He did exactly what he was supposed to do, wave his flag and stay OFF the track. The riders should have obeyed the flag, and I feel bad for the ones that did but still got caught up in it. An infield official was on his way there to help, but this all happened in a very short period of time.

With 42 riders, early in a national championship moto, it's a challenge to prevent chain-reaction crashes like this. Happens in the pros too. Ask Trey Canard and Ryan Morais and Weston Peick.

Oh, and that flagstand is elevated and set in the same place every year. It is not a lawn chair. It's built and placed to help the flagger see down the track and also stay protected from riders coming down the track and hitting the stand or the man.

DC
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BuDz34
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8/5/2012 1:10pm
You are 100% correct it is racing i agree but judging by the picture is he doing his best to warn riders to me it looks asnif the dude is leaning against the pole and attenpting to see what is going on while casually waving the flag and as riders
Continue to jump towards the pile up an lock the brakes up an cut the wheel to avoid wrecking.. Body language here is key if im racing im seeing a kid who just laid it over no big deal but thats not the case people were injured an the flagger casually waved his flag
chrisbuehler
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8/5/2012 1:49pm
Maybe it's just an optical illusion but it almost looks the riders view of him is blocked by a pole. And he could be closer to the track without jeopardizing his or the riders safety. Racers with tunnel vision won't even see him the way he away from the track like that. Like I said maybe its just the picture but I been racing and flagging since about '92 and never caused a shitshow like that
DC
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8/5/2012 2:03pm Edited Date/Time 8/5/2012 2:05pm
It is an optical illusion in this context, Chris. The stand is behind the pole, as is the flagger, to keep him protected and the riders from hitting the stand and hurting themselves as well. He has a perfect view of the jump and it's landing, and the riders seen him coming down the long stretch -- about 70 yards, with two low, rolling jumps and nothing to block their view. He can't be placed any closer. This shot is from the outside, and lower, of the next turn, which is a sweeper to the right.

I have been racing and flagging for much, much longer that since '92. I placed that flagstand myself last week, and spent a good deal of time on that jump during practice on Monday making sure there were no pile-ups. We wave a red-cross flag when someone crashes in the landing zone in practice because there are twice as many riders out there (two classes of 42 at a time) and they don't seem to obey the yellow flag as much, or sometimes at all.

Not sure what else can be done here and not risk causing more problems, like a flagger stepping out in front of bikes and placing himself in harm's way, as well as the riders. We will study it more and try to figure out some ways to make it more obvious what can happen in these situations...

DC
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Grizz
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8/5/2012 2:17pm
What class was that? I race with Jordan Webber every once in a while, he was the one that kept getting hit right? Ouch.
chrisbuehler
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8/5/2012 2:17pm
Yeah after your initial post I said to myself maybe that photo is a little disingenuous, if you will, of the actual chain of events. Unless you had the reverse view, the jump face, i guess it was a little speculative to jump ugly on the flagger. There has been a couple vids lately of flagger incidents, not even including the infamous Bubba-flagger gate, so I think people are a little emotional about rider safety. Myself personally, when shit goes down flagging my heart is cranking like I'm out there racing and I forget about my own safety. Having a 250 lb bike sans rider almost take me out, I can understand keeping the flatters off the track. Thanx for dropping in the thread DC
8/5/2012 3:31pm
That flag stand is clearly visable as is the flagger before it. I'm not generally a big fan of flagstands, but that one is a good one.

And yes, I was there.

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