450's need to go.

Overdrive
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Edited Date/Time 6/8/2012 1:01pm
This is my opinion, agree or disagree so be it......

450 class need to be on 250's.

250 class needs to be on 125s.

We have totally wiped out the top riders in the sport on the 450's, both sx annd mx are devoid of most of the premier riders. These guys push themselves to far on bikes that are to powerful and are getting hurt to frequently.

The 250 class is a barn burner each week because the guys are all still healthy and battling it out on less powerful, slower bikes.

*sure the 250 guys still get hurt, and the top guys still go as fast as the 450 top guys but over the course of a year the get hurt less.

We can't keep injuring off the top riders of the sport and hope to progress with no show.......

*yes guys got hurt in the 2 stroke days but not like this......this is crazy


I am sure this won't be a popular oppinion but so be it.
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scooter5002
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6/3/2012 7:31am
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage and bodies. It didn't happen. I don't think it's the bikes themselves. Perhaps more like the riders are pushing themselves, and it's coming back to bite them. Flat out, I highly doubt that todays factory 450s are harder to ride, or more powerful than the last SR500 Mike LaRocco won his title on. Just my 2cents.
bents
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6/3/2012 7:33am
Valid point. It seems like the bikes have superseded the top riders ability as crazy as that sounds. The bikes are so incredible these days. I was thinking as I was watching Bubba and Dungey going at it at Freestone, "If one of these guys crashes, it is going to hurt." fuck they were going so fast, and they get up to speed so quickly.
Overdrive
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6/3/2012 7:59am Edited Date/Time 6/3/2012 8:00am
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage...
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage and bodies. It didn't happen. I don't think it's the bikes themselves. Perhaps more like the riders are pushing themselves, and it's coming back to bite them. Flat out, I highly doubt that todays factory 450s are harder to ride, or more powerful than the last SR500 Mike LaRocco won his title on. Just my 2cents.
Yes we can agree to disagree, the 500's never rode sx tracks like we have today and we would have had even more injuries if they had. Back in those days we were happy to just watch racing, we didn't need to jump quads to be entertained.

More power does not mean better racing, it just means higher stakes if you make a small mistake. Spread this over a season and you end up with a lot of injured top riders.

Less power, lower speeds and less injuries due to small mistakes. More riders on the track and better racing between them.


And yeah mike I understand stewart can crash anything but he was hurt less on a 125. You understand that as the bike gets more powerful the stakes go up, if you make a small mistake it is multiplied.


Now I am going to go riding.
Hoov
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6/3/2012 8:09am Edited Date/Time 6/3/2012 8:12am
If you guys will go back and remember, the 250cc class evolved into the "premier class" of motocross racing...and the 500's faded away. That happened for a reason. With the evolution of the 250f, we now see riders in the "lites class" going just as fast as the 450's. Time for a reclassification of displacement perhaps???

Note: I am in favor of a 250cc class, and an Open class above 250cc. Two strokes, Four strokes...doesn't matter anymore. Bring back the tiddler class for the up coming and you have motocross again.

The Shop

observer
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6/3/2012 8:10am
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage...
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage and bodies. It didn't happen. I don't think it's the bikes themselves. Perhaps more like the riders are pushing themselves, and it's coming back to bite them. Flat out, I highly doubt that todays factory 450s are harder to ride, or more powerful than the last SR500 Mike LaRocco won his title on. Just my 2cents.
Overdrive wrote:
Yes we can agree to disagree, the 500's never rode sx tracks like we have today and we would have had even more injuries if they...
Yes we can agree to disagree, the 500's never rode sx tracks like we have today and we would have had even more injuries if they had. Back in those days we were happy to just watch racing, we didn't need to jump quads to be entertained.

More power does not mean better racing, it just means higher stakes if you make a small mistake. Spread this over a season and you end up with a lot of injured top riders.

Less power, lower speeds and less injuries due to small mistakes. More riders on the track and better racing between them.


And yeah mike I understand stewart can crash anything but he was hurt less on a 125. You understand that as the bike gets more powerful the stakes go up, if you make a small mistake it is multiplied.


Now I am going to go riding.
You just said it..........in a word, can you say SX tracks?
With a few exceptions, the bulk of the serious injuries have occured in SX races. Promoters have made outdoor Nat tracks somewhat mimic SX style jumps too/doubles/triples as well.
Combine fast, powerful, great handling 450s on crazy ass SX tracks(argueably some dangerous tracks), and you've got a recipe for season or career ending injury. Pro motocross is a victim of itself.
It is what it is...
Hando
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6/3/2012 8:12am
people crashed on 2-strokes too..this sport is dangerous and no one is forcing anyone to race.
cheers_22
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6/3/2012 8:21am
Overdrive wrote:
This is my opinion, agree or disagree so be it...... 450 class need to be on 250's. 250 class needs to be on 125s. We have...
This is my opinion, agree or disagree so be it......

450 class need to be on 250's.

250 class needs to be on 125s.

We have totally wiped out the top riders in the sport on the 450's, both sx annd mx are devoid of most of the premier riders. These guys push themselves to far on bikes that are to powerful and are getting hurt to frequently.

The 250 class is a barn burner each week because the guys are all still healthy and battling it out on less powerful, slower bikes.

*sure the 250 guys still get hurt, and the top guys still go as fast as the 450 top guys but over the course of a year the get hurt less.

We can't keep injuring off the top riders of the sport and hope to progress with no show.......

*yes guys got hurt in the 2 stroke days but not like this......this is crazy


I am sure this won't be a popular oppinion but so be it.
couldn't agree more..racing's not what it once was
observer
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6/3/2012 8:21am Edited Date/Time 6/3/2012 8:21am
Hando wrote:
people crashed on 2-strokes too..this sport is dangerous and no one is forcing anyone to race.
People crash on mini trail 50s too......but the season ending injuries of late are unprecedented in this sport.
Again....largely due to SX tracks layout. And no, nobody's forced to ride. But the money is a powerful allure.Wink
The Rock
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6/3/2012 8:23am
observer wrote:
You just said it..........in a word, can you say [i]SX tracks[/i]? With a few exceptions, the bulk of the serious injuries have occured in SX races...
You just said it..........in a word, can you say SX tracks?
With a few exceptions, the bulk of the serious injuries have occured in SX races. Promoters have made outdoor Nat tracks somewhat mimic SX style jumps too/doubles/triples as well.
Combine fast, powerful, great handling 450s on crazy ass SX tracks(argueably some dangerous tracks), and you've got a recipe for season or career ending injury. Pro motocross is a victim of itself.
It is what it is...
Nail hit squarely on the head especially the part about Nat tracks that mimic SX. Professional outdoor MX needs IMHO to be dialed back slightly so that is a true MX series and not the current hybrid SX/MX tracks we have today.

Say what you want to about Luongo but the guy gets it that "the riders are the product" and keeping them healthy makes the racing better. The rules in place for GP tracks about whoop design (they are not as steeply angled) and jumps needs to be integrated into the Nationals sooner rather than later.

Same can be said about local tracks. The age of racers is getting older and older and we don't have enough people entering the sport. What we are doing now is not sustainable in the long run.

Until the tracks change it won't matter what size bikes are being raced....the tracks are just too gnarly. As an old fart what bothers me the most is knowing (from personal experience) how much the injuries today's racers are collecting to make 300 dollars at a National or SX will haunt them as they get older.

BTW is your screen name an indication you watch Fringe? I was disappointed at the way this season ended (a little too Matrix-ish) but still like the show.
BR_HERO
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6/3/2012 8:25am
Slow450
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6/3/2012 8:27am
I think another consideration is a 450 can be made more competitive engine wise than a 250 for someone with limited support, limited money, limited tech know-how or all of the above. It honestly believe that I could make a 450 competitive in the engine department for a guy that is qualifying in the top-40 at an AMA national. I know I couldn't in the 250 class. I understand there are quite a few privateers whose engine program is all bolt on and some are not running race gas.
munsch121
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6/3/2012 8:35am
It has nothing to do with the bikes, Sure they have more power than ever but they also have better handling, suspension, ergonomics etc etc etc...it has everything to do with having so many riders pushing the limits. No longer do you have two riders pushing eachother, but 5. It just accelerates the progression of speed.

Besides let's look who is out with injuries right now ?

Reed-Legit pushing the envelope crash, yes it only bit him when he had to change his line
Trey-Freak accident, though his Washougal femur was a scrub gone wrong
RV- a tip over ? that had everything to do with the wicked horsepower of the mighty 450 !!
Windham- Old men can't scrub, even the baby jesus of moto !!
Stew ?!?!- Nothing to do with power (or a track worker IMO) that was a simple cross rut

The bikes are better than ever and are here to stay. IMO it is more dangerous to have the pro riding gods on underpowered machines than over powered, you have to remember they are not Jimmy local rider who can do wheelies, they live on these bikes.
MC752
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6/3/2012 8:39am
Don't post much but here goes... I'll have to disagree....
Villo- crashed coming into a corner
Canard- freak accident with the haybale cover that problem is hopefully addressed.
Reed- hit a kicker on a rutted jump. That happens no matter what the track design is.
Stewart- crashed on a straight away. Not much more to say than that...

Anyway just my opinion flame away...
Joe Bruce
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6/3/2012 8:46am
yea cause no one pushed the limits back in the old days. imo has everything to do with the weight and speed.
6/3/2012 8:53am
MC752 wrote:
Don't post much but here goes... I'll have to disagree.... Villo- crashed coming into a corner Canard- freak accident with the haybale cover that problem is...
Don't post much but here goes... I'll have to disagree....
Villo- crashed coming into a corner
Canard- freak accident with the haybale cover that problem is hopefully addressed.
Reed- hit a kicker on a rutted jump. That happens no matter what the track design is.
Stewart- crashed on a straight away. Not much more to say than that...

Anyway just my opinion flame away...
Except Reed was tripling because he was on a 450. Lites guys were not doing it. No triple no season ending endo in this scenario. No flame just observation.
ChingLongBing
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6/3/2012 9:12am
Everyone was healthy in 2011, you guys just want something to blame for this years injuries. How about we leave it at crap luck...
GuyB
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6/3/2012 9:15am
450s need to go? They already do go...very, very fast.
Rupert X
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6/3/2012 9:36am
I'd like to keep 'em outdoors. Outdoors. They have no bi'ness in stadiums.
PTECH
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6/3/2012 9:43am
MC752 wrote:
Don't post much but here goes... I'll have to disagree.... Villo- crashed coming into a corner Canard- freak accident with the haybale cover that problem is...
Don't post much but here goes... I'll have to disagree....
Villo- crashed coming into a corner
Canard- freak accident with the haybale cover that problem is hopefully addressed.
Reed- hit a kicker on a rutted jump. That happens no matter what the track design is.
Stewart- crashed on a straight away. Not much more to say than that...

Anyway just my opinion flame away...
Except Reed was tripling because he was on a 450. Lites guys were not doing it. No triple no season ending endo in this scenario. No...
Except Reed was tripling because he was on a 450. Lites guys were not doing it. No triple no season ending endo in this scenario. No flame just observation.
I disagree. Reed was riding balls out to pressure and or pass Rv that race. Riding at 10/10th mistakes can happen on any obstacle. Besides a top level 250 is probably gonna be getting pretty close to the same horsepower as the 450s. You want the top class guys racing 50s so they can all stay safe lol? Truthfully I think it doesn't matter how much horsepower you give these guys, when they're pushing so hard, mistakes are gonna happen and racers are gonna get hurt unfortunately. Hell, you could make the argument that if Reed had MORE power he wouldn't have had to seat bounce to clear that jump and he may have cleared it easier and not gotten hurt. His boot got caught in the bike on that crash too... Mx boots gotta go!
brimx153
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6/3/2012 9:51am
observer wrote:
You just said it..........in a word, can you say [i]SX tracks[/i]? With a few exceptions, the bulk of the serious injuries have occured in SX races...
You just said it..........in a word, can you say SX tracks?
With a few exceptions, the bulk of the serious injuries have occured in SX races. Promoters have made outdoor Nat tracks somewhat mimic SX style jumps too/doubles/triples as well.
Combine fast, powerful, great handling 450s on crazy ass SX tracks(argueably some dangerous tracks), and you've got a recipe for season or career ending injury. Pro motocross is a victim of itself.
It is what it is...
The Rock wrote:
Nail hit squarely on the head especially the part about Nat tracks that mimic SX. Professional outdoor MX needs IMHO to be dialed back slightly so...
Nail hit squarely on the head especially the part about Nat tracks that mimic SX. Professional outdoor MX needs IMHO to be dialed back slightly so that is a true MX series and not the current hybrid SX/MX tracks we have today.

Say what you want to about Luongo but the guy gets it that "the riders are the product" and keeping them healthy makes the racing better. The rules in place for GP tracks about whoop design (they are not as steeply angled) and jumps needs to be integrated into the Nationals sooner rather than later.

Same can be said about local tracks. The age of racers is getting older and older and we don't have enough people entering the sport. What we are doing now is not sustainable in the long run.

Until the tracks change it won't matter what size bikes are being raced....the tracks are just too gnarly. As an old fart what bothers me the most is knowing (from personal experience) how much the injuries today's racers are collecting to make 300 dollars at a National or SX will haunt them as they get older.

BTW is your screen name an indication you watch Fringe? I was disappointed at the way this season ended (a little too Matrix-ish) but still like the show.
x2 was just about to write the same thing , the design of the tracks has the biggest part to play , there is no room for any little mistake, wat would of happen to bagget if he over jumped that wall jump by only a few feet last week , he d be out for a long time, and he is on a 250 , so i totally disagree with ur 450 argument , if you want to make the bikes slower why not bring the noise level down to 85 desibles , and that sovles two problems
Toste
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6/3/2012 10:50am
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage...
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage and bodies. It didn't happen. I don't think it's the bikes themselves. Perhaps more like the riders are pushing themselves, and it's coming back to bite them. Flat out, I highly doubt that todays factory 450s are harder to ride, or more powerful than the last SR500 Mike LaRocco won his title on. Just my 2cents.
I agree that lighter, less powerful bikes would be a step in the right direction for both safety & tighter racing.

People don't talk about it much, but a big part of the reason speeds were lower back then was track prep. Riders couldn't go pinned to the stops all the time because the traction just wasn't there (especially on a 500cc 2-stroke). A lot more square-edge/chop back then to slow things down too (possibly because of crapper suspension & more wheelspin just as much as track preparation). Not saying that I'd like to see a return to the dust bowl days of yore, but it's not just the improved bikes and riding techniques at play like everyone says.

And something needs to be done about SX. Sad to say, but if Feld/AMA/DW stays the course, I don't think what happened this year with injuries will be an aberration.
MR. X
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6/3/2012 10:59am
I wish I could understand this new way of thinking people are coming up with, I don't remember people crying and complaining so much even 10 years ago.
6/3/2012 11:16am
PTECH wrote:
I disagree. Reed was riding balls out to pressure and or pass Rv that race. Riding at 10/10th mistakes can happen on any obstacle. Besides a...
I disagree. Reed was riding balls out to pressure and or pass Rv that race. Riding at 10/10th mistakes can happen on any obstacle. Besides a top level 250 is probably gonna be getting pretty close to the same horsepower as the 450s. You want the top class guys racing 50s so they can all stay safe lol? Truthfully I think it doesn't matter how much horsepower you give these guys, when they're pushing so hard, mistakes are gonna happen and racers are gonna get hurt unfortunately. Hell, you could make the argument that if Reed had MORE power he wouldn't have had to seat bounce to clear that jump and he may have cleared it easier and not gotten hurt. His boot got caught in the bike on that crash too... Mx boots gotta go!
250's had a more rut free lip and still were not doing it. They were in practice though so I'll give that to ya. They're riding 450's wide open now and the speeds have increased so when the inevitable "big one" happens, see James yesterday, they no longer just hit the ground. They get belly to belly suplexed from the top rope. It's evolution of the sport but 5-7 years ago F1 realized they made a mistake with rapid expansion of technology and power and driver aids and devolved to better the racing and participation and control spending costs. I'm not saying 250's are the answer but if tracks keep being built the way they are with the bikes they have I feel guys are going to continue to get big injuries in big numbers.
Toste
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6/3/2012 11:22am
MR. X wrote:
I wish I could understand this new way of thinking people are coming up with, I don't remember people crying and complaining so much even 10...
I wish I could understand this new way of thinking people are coming up with, I don't remember people crying and complaining so much even 10 years ago.
Do you think the racing is as good in 450s as 250s?

Do you think injuries are more frequent and severe now as compared to 10 years ago?
Hank_Thrill
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6/3/2012 11:33am Edited Date/Time 6/3/2012 11:55am
A-MEN BROTHA!!!

Lets not forget that only 3 riders raced every main event in the 450 supercross class this year, WHICH SUCKS! The 250 class is more like restrictor plate racing, where the 450's have so much power the guys racing for first push themselves further and further to limits that make rider implosion inevitable. Last year at Steel City is a good example when both Ryans were 8 seconds a lap faster than anybody else. Thankfully, nobody went down that day. Slowing the bikes down, or tossing the 450 class out the window, would allow riders to mentally process things happening on the track much easier, which would result in greater safety. It really is going to be hard for this sport to grow when the premier class lacks excitement due to all the injuries.

I have yet to see the 250 class from Thunder Valley this year, but has anyone noticed that the 250 class racing at the highest elevation (down on power) consistently provides phenomenal racing?
Hank_Thrill
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6/3/2012 11:44am
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage...
Guess I'll have to disagree. Using your logic, that would mean in the by-gone era of works 500s, the tracks should have been littered with carnage and bodies. It didn't happen. I don't think it's the bikes themselves. Perhaps more like the riders are pushing themselves, and it's coming back to bite them. Flat out, I highly doubt that todays factory 450s are harder to ride, or more powerful than the last SR500 Mike LaRocco won his title on. Just my 2cents.
The progression level of the sport was not as evolved as it is today. Also, suspension was nowhere near as good as it is today which limited speeds. That first statement is not to knock older generation riders; without them, riders would not be going as fast as they are today. Sports evolve, just like the human race. One rider discovers a technique to go faster, then it becomes duplicated. Or, one rider does something everyone thought was impossible, and ten years later the impossible becomes the norm. We are standing on the shoulders of giants applies to motocross racing, too.

My 2-cents:
- Fastest bikes ever from motor to suspension/handling.
- Riding evolution at an all time high. A lot of pros talk like the progression level has reached a point where you cannot go faster around a track determined by the laws of physics.

If you believe the tracks are the cause, the next question to ask yourself is: would we see this many injuries in the 450 class if they were all racing 100cc pit-bikes?
Lowlander
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6/3/2012 11:58am
The 4 stroke development has come a long way.

So to address the fact that the bikes are capable of more than the riders we need to look at a few things.

-Production rule on suspension so that they can not charge through the bumps as fast as they do.

-Introduce a rev ceiling so that 250f's and 450's make less peak hp

- Sound rules that benefit everyone from pro to local guys. Make the pipe manufacturers meet much more stringent sound levels so the bikes rev a little slower and again produce less power.

i.e.
250f rev ceiling 12500rpm and the 450's 10000rpm. Introduce the sound limits using the 2 metre max method but adopt the enduro limits. That 3db difference does a lot to response and peak power.


If you could wipe 10-15% of the 4 stroke hp and slow the response down you would then have classes similar to that of the early 2000's with riders having advanced on fitness and technique 10 fold each class would be 1st-40th all out racing. It would also allow a privateer to be competitive on the old 2 strokes. Other things I like from F1 etc is penalties for changing engines or changing internal It would be nice if a team was only allowed to use 1 spare engine a season and clutches were not to be touched unless it was determined a mud race for example. That sort of thing again would force teams and manufacturers to look at building more reliability into the engines.


Much like the 500's did in the 90's the 450's have now out grown the rider. No longer can a rider over ride the bike and get away with it. Sure we had big crashes in the 80's,90's and even early 2000's but the riders are pushing the physical limits of what can be done with the human body and bike way more than they did 10 years ago.


The other common sense idea mentioned earlier was that of track design. Mellow them out a bit, slow the speeds down and make more technical tracks. Stop ripping them deep and watering the hell out of them. Let the terrain be a little more natural so specialist riders can shine on certain conditions blowing the field even more open.


Anyway, you get the idea. As it stands though the perfect storm is their to be unleashed but it is highly unlikely that it will ever happen. The AMA has a bunch of fast 250f riders that will graduate soon into the 450's making it a 6 or even 8 way battle at the top depending on how they adapt to the bike bike. So maybe then you will have a good 3 or 4 way battle at the end of the season though numbers and luck alone.
Hank_Thrill
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6/3/2012 12:00pm
MR. X wrote:
I wish I could understand this new way of thinking people are coming up with, I don't remember people crying and complaining so much even 10...
I wish I could understand this new way of thinking people are coming up with, I don't remember people crying and complaining so much even 10 years ago.
The first ten years I watched this sport from '93-'03, I can only recall three high status professionals having spinal injuries: Doug Henry, 1995; Jeff Emig; 1999; and Jimmy Button; 2000. Now, you could make a list of 20-40 riders that have had spinal injuries in just the past five years. Riders now seem to be getting injured as much as one of my all time favorite riders, Robbie Reynard.
RACERX69
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6/3/2012 12:06pm
GuyB wrote:
450s need to go? They already do go...very, very fast.
As always.....towing the Industry Line!!!!!

Gotta keep those paychecks rolling in. I get it.
6/3/2012 12:09pm
Overdrive wrote:
This is my opinion, agree or disagree so be it...... 450 class need to be on 250's. 250 class needs to be on 125s. We have...
This is my opinion, agree or disagree so be it......

450 class need to be on 250's.

250 class needs to be on 125s.

We have totally wiped out the top riders in the sport on the 450's, both sx annd mx are devoid of most of the premier riders. These guys push themselves to far on bikes that are to powerful and are getting hurt to frequently.

The 250 class is a barn burner each week because the guys are all still healthy and battling it out on less powerful, slower bikes.

*sure the 250 guys still get hurt, and the top guys still go as fast as the 450 top guys but over the course of a year the get hurt less.

We can't keep injuring off the top riders of the sport and hope to progress with no show.......

*yes guys got hurt in the 2 stroke days but not like this......this is crazy


I am sure this won't be a popular oppinion but so be it.
.
100% agree

I've said it 100X
I'd rather watch a mid pack pro on a 250f than a top pro on a Big Fat Pig 450 anyday.

.

.

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