Bad circlip- arrugh!

sec114
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Orange Park, FL, USA
1/6/2012 6:28am
Oh, you can laugh now, you wanna-be pretend Scotsman. You spout off about your heritage, but you don't even eat HAGGIS, or even know who Robert...
Oh, you can laugh now, you wanna-be pretend Scotsman. You spout off about your heritage, but you don't even eat HAGGIS, or even know who Robert The Fucking BRUCE is! You sir, are not man enough to sit at the same BAR as Sean Connery and I, let alone quaff a stiff shot of B and W with us.
Change my avatar, huh? That was, like, the SICKEST whip ever! Made JS look like a rookie. It was even better than a DDavis SCRUB! Now I have to go dig that fuckin' thing up and reload it into the computer. For your insolence, you shall PAY!.
I'll be in town tomorrow night. We'll see who's laughing, when I'm watching A-1 on YOUR brand new big screen. While sitting on your chest on your livingroom floor. After giving you a wedgie so bad, your wife will ask if your new friend gave you a new HOODIE as a late Christmas present!
You can laugh now, my friend. But be afraid. VERY.........................afraid. I know..............where you live.
OOOH SNAP!! Now that would be one heck of a wedgie! You forgot to throw in a "teabag" afterwards! haha!! Peace and safety to all; and yes, even the Canadians.
1/6/2012 8:06am
How easily threads go awry. From a circlip gone bad to nuclear wedgie's, teabagging, and Justin Bieber. Yep, it's VitalMX. Laughing


Terry, so you're thinking that the 4 wear marks aren't from the motor not being 100% warmed up first like CamP did?
Why would there only be detonation on those 4 areas, and not all over?

As for where the opening was- you can actually see it in the 3rd picture. I snapped that shot before removing the circlip. The spot that it broke at was right about at 9:00, and the actual opening was at about 7:00.

Old tiddler, that's how I install them, but without a screwdriver. I just use my thumb to lever it in there. It's funny, because I've always been paranoid about installing circlips, thinking of the carnage that could be caused by one coming loose. In this case, I don't see how where I did anything wrong, but am thinking that there was a metallurgy issue. I'm not opposed to finding out that I did something incorrectly, as I don't want to have issues in the future. I'm not thinking that this is a common Namura issue, heck I also have a Namura in my CR250R that was installed at the same time the RM85 piston was. It seems to be fine, though I will be pulling the pipe to look for blowby even though it only has about 5 tanks of fuel run though it.



I have now been in contact with Namura. I'll be filling out their return form and sending them the piston. The gentleman I spoke to was helpful and professional, hopefully that trend continues and they take care of the cylinder and head in addition to a new piston. I will keep everyone informed.


Thanks again to everyone for the comments and suggestions (err, at least most of them, lol).
sec114
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1006
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Location
Orange Park, FL, USA
1/6/2012 5:21pm
How easily threads go awry. From a circlip gone bad to nuclear wedgie's, teabagging, and Justin Bieber. Yep, it's VitalMX. :laugh: Terry, so you're thinking that...
How easily threads go awry. From a circlip gone bad to nuclear wedgie's, teabagging, and Justin Bieber. Yep, it's VitalMX. Laughing


Terry, so you're thinking that the 4 wear marks aren't from the motor not being 100% warmed up first like CamP did?
Why would there only be detonation on those 4 areas, and not all over?

As for where the opening was- you can actually see it in the 3rd picture. I snapped that shot before removing the circlip. The spot that it broke at was right about at 9:00, and the actual opening was at about 7:00.

Old tiddler, that's how I install them, but without a screwdriver. I just use my thumb to lever it in there. It's funny, because I've always been paranoid about installing circlips, thinking of the carnage that could be caused by one coming loose. In this case, I don't see how where I did anything wrong, but am thinking that there was a metallurgy issue. I'm not opposed to finding out that I did something incorrectly, as I don't want to have issues in the future. I'm not thinking that this is a common Namura issue, heck I also have a Namura in my CR250R that was installed at the same time the RM85 piston was. It seems to be fine, though I will be pulling the pipe to look for blowby even though it only has about 5 tanks of fuel run though it.



I have now been in contact with Namura. I'll be filling out their return form and sending them the piston. The gentleman I spoke to was helpful and professional, hopefully that trend continues and they take care of the cylinder and head in addition to a new piston. I will keep everyone informed.


Thanks again to everyone for the comments and suggestions (err, at least most of them, lol).
your positive attitude rocks!
TerryK
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9899
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8/17/2006
Location
CA
1/6/2012 7:42pm
Oh, you can laugh now, you wanna-be pretend Scotsman. You spout off about your heritage, but you don't even eat HAGGIS, or even know who Robert...
Oh, you can laugh now, you wanna-be pretend Scotsman. You spout off about your heritage, but you don't even eat HAGGIS, or even know who Robert The Fucking BRUCE is! You sir, are not man enough to sit at the same BAR as Sean Connery and I, let alone quaff a stiff shot of B and W with us.
Change my avatar, huh? That was, like, the SICKEST whip ever! Made JS look like a rookie. It was even better than a DDavis SCRUB! Now I have to go dig that fuckin' thing up and reload it into the computer. For your insolence, you shall PAY!.
I'll be in town tomorrow night. We'll see who's laughing, when I'm watching A-1 on YOUR brand new big screen. While sitting on your chest on your livingroom floor. After giving you a wedgie so bad, your wife will ask if your new friend gave you a new HOODIE as a late Christmas present!
You can laugh now, my friend. But be afraid. VERY.........................afraid. I know..............where you live.
Lol, you're a funny guy.....well sort of. Tongue

And hey, don't insult my heritage yo! I'm 3/4 Scottish and thats good enough! And who told you I didn't know who Robbie Bruce is yer wanker?

Awa an bile yer heid yer walloper!

The Shop

TerryK
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CA
1/6/2012 7:45pm
Matt: while it does indeed look like the beginnings of a 4 corner seizure, it almost appears to me that the detonation somehow caused the marks on the side of the piston. I could be wrong though obviously.
1/7/2012 5:15pm
lumpy790 wrote:
when you installed the circlip....... where was the opening? 3,6,9,12 oclock?
CamP wrote:
Over the years I heard people say they should be in each of those positions. In 35 years of building engines I've installed them in every...
Over the years I heard people say they should be in each of those positions. In 35 years of building engines I've installed them in every conceivable position and never had one pop out. I've come to conclusion that it really doesn't matter. Now I just line it up so that the clip barely bridges the access slot. It's easiest to remove them from that position next time I'm in there.
Guys, it is VERY important that the Circlip gap is at the top or at the bottom. Usually the bottom is best. Reason being, is that if it is at 3:00 or 9:00, or thereabouts, you can compress it easier. Figure out the piston velocity on an 85 at 12 or 13,000rpm, and then figure out the amount of force when the piston changes direction.... It happens, and its common.

Id still bet that was the cause, or it was damaged a bit when it was installed. Not being a smart ass.... just saying from experience. Mod two stroke engine building was my business for a few years. Be careful when installing them.
Bryan_Morton
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Missoula, MT, USA
1/14/2012 8:27pm
I always measure both the piston and the cylinder before I trust the piston maker or myself! It is the way to rebuild an engine properly. A proper piston to cylinder clearance will ensure longer engine life and if you have to circlips installed properly there is no reason for them to come out. The first engine I ever rebuilt i missed the circlip installation it wasnt in there properly and it came out and f'd my engine all up. I have rebuilt hundreds of engines since then and have never had an issue. Is all about knowing what your doing and paying attention! Good luck with gettin er back running.
kippy450
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USA
1/14/2012 10:14pm
I had a 125 that had the circlip come out and do a ton of damage. I was told after that to put the clip at an angle instead of horizontal like I did. Madmax my be right as well. Such a stupid little part that can cause SO much damage. I had a clip come out on my 450's cam and didn't do any damage to the motor at all....definitley filled the oil filter with metal but didn't damage the valves at all. If it would have been my 2smoker, game over!
motoracer633
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North Charleston, SC, USA
1/16/2012 9:06am
Like Lumpy said, i was told top or bottom by various manufactures.
1/17/2012 9:02am
The circlip didn't come out of the piston. As a matter of fact, it's still in the piston in the 3rd picture. The circlip broke off about an 1/8" from the end. Not even in the center of the circlip, the end of it.

I'm not sure what I could have done that caused it to fail like that. No that it's impossible, but I don't see what I could have done to cause the circlip to break, especially where it broke at.
lapper
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Huntingtown, MD, USA
1/20/2012 8:54am Edited Date/Time 1/20/2012 9:00am
The circlip opening should always be at the very top or bottom of the piston. Here's why...

@6000 rpm, your RM-85's piston is traveling approx. 30 feet per second. It's going from full speed to a dead stop (TDC/BDC), to full reverse speed 200 times in that same second. The gravitation (G) force on the circlip are huge. Try to picture what happens to the circlip at BDC. You've got G force pushing down on the top of the clip. The bottom of the clip is against the piston and it's now being pushed up by the crank. The circlip is being squeezed by two opposing forces (upward mechanical and downward gravitational) It's like a small vice. The same thing happens in reverse at TDC.

Now take an old circlip and squeeze it with a pair of pliers. Try it with the circlip opening to the side (3 or 9 o'clock) in relation to the jaws. It compresses at the gap fairly easily. Now repeat this with the opening on a jaw (6 or 12 o'clock). You'll feel how much harder it is compress. The load is now being applied against both sides of the circlip. That same "squeezing" is happening in your engine 100's of times per second.

Unfortunately, I believe the pictures show that circlip position may have been a contributing factor. The top of the circlip was compressed and became unseated at BDC. It protruded out into the transfer port. As the piston traveled up, the end of the circlip was literally sheered (cut) off by the piston and the top of the transfer port. Based on the location of the groove, (say 1 o'clock), the end of the circlip was 1/8" past that. That puts the end of the clip (start of the gap) close to 2-3 o'clock.

The circlip may have been weak, but it also may not have failed if the gap was at the top or bottom. That's between you and Namura.
10/9/2014 3:50pm
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such as prox or oem. Although my bikes blow up just recently my rm 125 blew up the crank thrust washer cracked in half destroyed the piston lucky the cylinder wasn't scratched I fount half the washer in the reed cage but guess what the reeds weren't broken. So I rebuild the bottom end with a new wisico crank and pro x piston. Then being retarded damaged the stator 150.00 for a new one.
10/10/2014 1:55am
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such...
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such as prox or oem. Although my bikes blow up just recently my rm 125 blew up the crank thrust washer cracked in half destroyed the piston lucky the cylinder wasn't scratched I fount half the washer in the reed cage but guess what the reeds weren't broken. So I rebuild the bottom end with a new wisico crank and pro x piston. Then being retarded damaged the stator 150.00 for a new one.
So, namura Pistons Suck, But You Just Installed A Wiseco crank? You've got less than 10% chance that crank makes it three hours. I hope I'm wrong though. I'd love to save money if I knew they'd last.
moto314
Posts
938
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Location
Mooresville, NC, USA
10/10/2014 10:35am
I have always installed my circlips with the opening down, but it really doesn't matter. The inertial forces even at 14,000 rpms is not enough to cause the clip to compress enough to come out of the groove, besides the pin can press up against the clip and rotate it anyway. I know this because I designed pistons and clips for 8 years. My guess is either the clip had a flaw or was damaged during installation and when the pin pressed against it and tried to rotate the lock, it dug into the lock groove and broke off. At least it didn't end up in the bottom end, easy fix, replate and new piston.
10/10/2014 1:28pm Edited Date/Time 10/10/2014 1:42pm
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such...
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such as prox or oem. Although my bikes blow up just recently my rm 125 blew up the crank thrust washer cracked in half destroyed the piston lucky the cylinder wasn't scratched I fount half the washer in the reed cage but guess what the reeds weren't broken. So I rebuild the bottom end with a new wisico crank and pro x piston. Then being retarded damaged the stator 150.00 for a new one.
LOL!
Thankfully you were able to figure out my problem nearly 3 years later! Laughing Laughing

Yep, Namura pistons do suck, as does their customer noservice department.

In the end I replated the cylinder and moved on. Replaced the ring every 5 hours, new OEM piston every 10 hours. It was great. Matter of fact, all the RM85 stuff is being sold, he's on 125's now.

Ignore me razzing you for bringing this thread back to life, now maybe someone considering buying a namura piston won't make the same mistake I did. Cool
10/10/2014 2:05pm
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such...
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such as prox or oem. Although my bikes blow up just recently my rm 125 blew up the crank thrust washer cracked in half destroyed the piston lucky the cylinder wasn't scratched I fount half the washer in the reed cage but guess what the reeds weren't broken. So I rebuild the bottom end with a new wisico crank and pro x piston. Then being retarded damaged the stator 150.00 for a new one.
So, namura Pistons Suck, But You Just Installed A Wiseco crank? You've got less than 10% chance that crank makes it three hours. I hope I'm...
So, namura Pistons Suck, But You Just Installed A Wiseco crank? You've got less than 10% chance that crank makes it three hours. I hope I'm wrong though. I'd love to save money if I knew they'd last.
Yeah really im talking after buying a wisco crank i didnt know them were bad but i will start a thread for a review on it if it goes of last a long time.
10/10/2014 2:08pm
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such...
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such as prox or oem. Although my bikes blow up just recently my rm 125 blew up the crank thrust washer cracked in half destroyed the piston lucky the cylinder wasn't scratched I fount half the washer in the reed cage but guess what the reeds weren't broken. So I rebuild the bottom end with a new wisico crank and pro x piston. Then being retarded damaged the stator 150.00 for a new one.
LOL! Thankfully you were able to figure out my problem nearly 3 years later! :laugh: :laugh: Yep, Namura pistons do suck, as does their customer noservice...
LOL!
Thankfully you were able to figure out my problem nearly 3 years later! Laughing Laughing

Yep, Namura pistons do suck, as does their customer noservice department.

In the end I replated the cylinder and moved on. Replaced the ring every 5 hours, new OEM piston every 10 hours. It was great. Matter of fact, all the RM85 stuff is being sold, he's on 125's now.

Ignore me razzing you for bringing this thread back to life, now maybe someone considering buying a namura piston won't make the same mistake I did. Cool
Yeah numara for the not so fast riders what 125 is he riding ?
10/10/2014 5:35pm
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such...
I found your problem numara pistons are terrible and have heard horror stories about it when rebuilding any bike i suggest buying high quality components such as prox or oem. Although my bikes blow up just recently my rm 125 blew up the crank thrust washer cracked in half destroyed the piston lucky the cylinder wasn't scratched I fount half the washer in the reed cage but guess what the reeds weren't broken. So I rebuild the bottom end with a new wisico crank and pro x piston. Then being retarded damaged the stator 150.00 for a new one.
LOL! Thankfully you were able to figure out my problem nearly 3 years later! :laugh: :laugh: Yep, Namura pistons do suck, as does their customer noservice...
LOL!
Thankfully you were able to figure out my problem nearly 3 years later! Laughing Laughing

Yep, Namura pistons do suck, as does their customer noservice department.

In the end I replated the cylinder and moved on. Replaced the ring every 5 hours, new OEM piston every 10 hours. It was great. Matter of fact, all the RM85 stuff is being sold, he's on 125's now.

Ignore me razzing you for bringing this thread back to life, now maybe someone considering buying a namura piston won't make the same mistake I did. Cool
Yeah numara for the not so fast riders what 125 is he riding ?
I wouldn't use a Namura piston for any bike, regardless of the skill level of the rider.

He's on a late model YZ125. I'm going to re-do my KX125 and YZ250 this winter. Bit of a 2 stroke garage here. Cool

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