Suspension evolution really in progress?

Lightning78
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Lightning78 12/15/2011 3:24pm
12/15/2011 3:24pm
CR250Rider wrote:
forks with compression damping in one leg and rebound in the other
Marzocchi (sp) did that back in 93 or 94 with the purple fork legged ktm's
Lightning78
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Lightning78 12/15/2011 3:27pm
12/15/2011 3:27pm
Also id be willing to bet electromagnetic suspension isn't that far off and theoretically not that hard to comprehend I don't have enough typing space to explain but its not that complicated and could be in process soon
motoarmageddon 12/15/2011 3:27pm
12/15/2011 3:27pm
FlickitFlat wrote:
I couldn't begin to answer your question but I do think the stock stuff now is pretty comparable to some modified stuff of the late 90's...
I couldn't begin to answer your question but I do think the stock stuff now is pretty comparable to some modified stuff of the late 90's early 2000's. With that being said. My favorite suspension of any bike I have ever had was a 1997 KX 250 with ProAction mods for a 155lb. Pro. I swear I could jump a house with that stuff and not bounce. I passed tons of guys on that bike by just over jumping shit. The suspension on that bike also done everything else well, inside corners, rail outside corners, changed lines, breaking bumps. I have yet to have another bike I could do that with. 1997
its possible that you were in kickass shape and just could hang on to anything! LOL but seriously those 97 KX 250's were solid bikes. Damon Huffman and said it was one of his favorite bikes
motoarmageddon 12/15/2011 3:30pm
12/15/2011 3:30pm
Does anyone on here remember the Double Pumper forks from Zip Ty mods? they were modded KYB's. nobody I know has heard of them. i rode a 95 KX 250 with this setup and it was awesome. great on slap-down landings.

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Gabriel J
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Gabriel J 12/15/2011 3:43pm
12/15/2011 3:43pm Edited Date/Time 12/15/2011 3:44pm
Lightning78 wrote:
Also id be willing to bet electromagnetic suspension isn't that far off and theoretically not that hard to comprehend I don't have enough typing space to...
Also id be willing to bet electromagnetic suspension isn't that far off and theoretically not that hard to comprehend I don't have enough typing space to explain but its not that complicated and could be in process soon
I would be willing to bet that electromagnetic suspension will have to go from the street and tracks to off-road trucks, then sport bikes before it finds it's way onto motocross bike. I don't believe they have worked on a design that would have such long travel, adaptability and weight needed on a supercross or motocross track.

I could betotally wrong, just going off what I've read about the auto manufacturers' versions.
jimmie
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jimmie 12/15/2011 3:50pm
12/15/2011 3:50pm
Motodrew295 wrote:
I just want my suspension predictable. No kicking, swapping or huck a bucking. I leave the clickers alone because I cant feel a difference. I can...
I just want my suspension predictable. No kicking, swapping or huck a bucking. I leave the clickers alone because I cant feel a difference. I can only really tell after a spring and revalve change but other than that I just ride what I have. As long as its dialed in for you, or you think its dialed in for you, thats all that matters. Also, keeping what you have serviced is a big deal. when the oil is done for, it makes a big difference to get fresh oil in. I used to think I was fine just changing fork oil when I did seals only after they were leaky but changing the oil more often is a good to keep the same feel.

So to answer Drsweeds question I think suspension in the last 10 years is pretty much the same or can be massaged to feel pretty much the same. Until we adopt some F1 technology we wont be seeing leaps and gains in suspension R&D.
Honestly, the first paragraph says it all.

High speed, low speed, compression, rebound, I have been fiddling with these things since the eighties. And other than going from one extreme adjustment to the other extreme, I can't really feel much difference. My slow,sorry butt can't figure out what exactly works the best.

Wish it were different, for me anyways, but it's not.
Bret
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Bret 12/15/2011 3:50pm
12/15/2011 3:50pm
The biggest advances and benefits will be achieved by reducing weight and friction (in my opinion).
reded
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reded 12/15/2011 5:40pm
12/15/2011 5:40pm
CR250Rider wrote:
forks with compression damping in one leg and rebound in the other
Lightning78 wrote:
Marzocchi (sp) did that back in 93 or 94 with the purple fork legged ktm's
Those Zokes were actually damn good units for the time, I had a '95 KTM 550 and the suspension was plush yet seemed like it could soak up a killer hit with no problem. It's biggest downfall was acceleration bumps.

mark_swart, good on you for manning up, we learn something new everyday....
TheWeapon 12/15/2011 5:45pm
12/15/2011 5:45pm
I am yet to experience 'better' suspension than I had in '96 - Marzocchi forks, ohlins shock. That said....I haven't tried A-kit showa/kyb suspension either.
TX24
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TX24 12/15/2011 5:53pm
12/15/2011 5:53pm
"The best you know is the best you've ridden" Paul Thede Race Tech
Lightning78
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Lightning78 12/15/2011 6:05pm
12/15/2011 6:05pm
CR250Rider wrote:
forks with compression damping in one leg and rebound in the other
Lightning78 wrote:
Marzocchi (sp) did that back in 93 or 94 with the purple fork legged ktm's
reded wrote:
Those Zokes were actually damn good units for the time, I had a '95 KTM 550 and the suspension was plush yet seemed like it could...
Those Zokes were actually damn good units for the time, I had a '95 KTM 550 and the suspension was plush yet seemed like it could soak up a killer hit with no problem. It's biggest downfall was acceleration bumps.

mark_swart, good on you for manning up, we learn something new everyday....
I want one of those ktm550's soooooooooo bad
PC
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PC 12/15/2011 6:08pm
12/15/2011 6:08pm
The 50mm open chambered zokes on my husky are the shit. The twin chambered 50mm zokes on my other husky are horrible even after my tuner softened them up.

Give me open chambered slush puppies any day of the week. It sucks coming up short, but it works SO much better on the other 90% of the track/trail, especially corners.

I am so damn slow even technology has passed me and gapped me 20 years!
bigborefan
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bigborefan 12/15/2011 6:09pm
12/15/2011 6:09pm
My 94 KX-500 revalved by Stealthworks was pretty fing sweet. It was maybe just a tad soft, but it cornered like crazy, especially in a nice rut.
loftyair
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loftyair 12/15/2011 7:55pm
12/15/2011 7:55pm
Yep, '98 rm250, conventionals with rg3. I could hit a square edge, a big one, like 12" tall, with my eyes closed and no-handed, and not even know a thing about a bump. I would purposely take the most hammered line, and be in disbelief time after time.
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scooter5002 12/15/2011 8:58pm
12/15/2011 8:58pm
Shawn142 wrote:
Stock suspension hasn't made many improvements in the last 10 years. Forks and a shock from say your example, a 2002 CR250 vs a 2008 CRF450...
Stock suspension hasn't made many improvements in the last 10 years. Forks and a shock from say your example, a 2002 CR250 vs a 2008 CRF450, are not significantly different nor would they really improve the feel of your typical novice guy. Actually bolting late model suspension to your older bike is a big mistake too because the valving is so different. It causes some weird problems that take a complete rework of the components to fix. You'd be better served putting the correct springs in your stock stuff.

To say that A-kit stuff isn't the shit though is to admit you've never ridden on it. The high-end expensive as the bike suspension is worth it if you're a pro. That stuff soaks up big hits and square edge bumps like it's nothing. On a normal practice track that's smooth with small berms you'd never tell a difference between A-kit or stock, but on rough ass rutted up tracks at big races that stuff is a dream.
scooter5002 wrote:
Huh. So you are saying that when I bolted my 04 450 forks to my 99 CR500 was a COMPLETE mistake, and even though they were...
Huh. So you are saying that when I bolted my 04 450 forks to my 99 CR500 was a COMPLETE mistake, and even though they were awesome, I was wrong?! Well, golly gee!
"Doc, get me back to spring 05, I have to go back and NOT ride a motorcycle. I need to prove somebody right. What do MEAN, the fuckin' DeLorean is in for an OIL CHANGE?!?! NOW, Doc!
Shawn142 wrote:
The fact that you're claiming anything makes a CR500 handle good completely negates any slap-stick Canadian joke you're trying to make.
The fact that you never rode the bike and renders you unable to make a qualified judgement on it, even though you did, makes you a know it all dumbass with an ego bigger than your brain. Bad combination.
Perhaps it was the fact that my suspension guy valved both bikes that made the suspension work so well. The power of the 500 would be similar, if not more brutal than the 450. He has done a lot of bikes for me over the years, and never missed.
When you have something intelligent to contribute to this class, please feel free to raise your hand and ask for permission to speak. For now, please report to detention in the study hall.
PS: You SUCK at movie trivia/innuendo. DOUBLE FAIL. Hardly "slap-stick Canadian humour. However, it had a Canadian in it. Getting a clue yet?
Scott_Hack
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Scott_Hack 12/15/2011 8:58pm
12/15/2011 8:58pm
CamP wrote:
The Suzuki Full floater rear suspension that was produced 30 years ago is still good by today's standards. The low hanging fruit has all been plucked.
Ding, Ding, Ding! Best rear suspension ever made, hands down.

CamP, sometime in the next year, I will start testing a YZ250 smoker with full-floater rear suspension. Interested in helping out?
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CamP 12/15/2011 10:01pm
12/15/2011 10:01pm
CamP wrote:
The Suzuki Full floater rear suspension that was produced 30 years ago is still good by today's standards. The low hanging fruit has all been plucked.
Scott_Hack wrote:
Ding, Ding, Ding! Best rear suspension ever made, hands down. CamP, sometime in the next year, I will start testing a YZ250 smoker with full-floater rear...
Ding, Ding, Ding! Best rear suspension ever made, hands down.

CamP, sometime in the next year, I will start testing a YZ250 smoker with full-floater rear suspension. Interested in helping out?
That sounds ambitious. I have some '83 full floater parts if you need them.
2TYam27
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2TYam27 12/15/2011 10:27pm
12/15/2011 10:27pm
I have an 05 YZ250 with the position sensitive forks and I can tell a difference when I ride the 06 and up YZs (YZ125 and YZ250F) with the speed sensitive forks if the track is rough or has harsh landings. I am always blown away by how good the stock speed sensitive Yamaha forks are. I also spent some time on a freshened up 99 YZ125 and my 05 was much better than the 99. All bikes were bone stock including the fork springs (not positive on the 99's springs). So in my opinion, at least for Yamaha, the suspension has progressed when comparing stock forks.

I have ridden a late model Kawi and Honda and did not get the WOW factor that I do from speed sensitive Yamaha forks but they were not completely stock and I only rode them a few minutes so its probably not fair to compare. My question is: is Yamaha the only one using the speed sensitive forks?

The 76 YZs had springless nitrogen only forks. I wondered if that would ever come back around.

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DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/16/2011 12:34am
12/16/2011 12:34am
Cool input guys. Two things I noticed.

1. If you get a bad set of forks, like they are harsh to start with, or they become harsh after a mudder, and you try to restore them with new bushings and seals, you will most likely fail making them plush again? I have this obsession where I put the bike with free load, and pressing the bike down with my feet on the peg should make it bow equally in front and rear. A majority of my bikes have had movement in the rear for like 5 inches before forks moves. Those bike have felt harsh in initial stroke, compared to any bike from any year that bow adequately. I hope that made sense...

Maybe contradiction? Talked to Öhlins some years ago, and they said their 2005 A-forks, gold plated 6k forks was similar to 2008 Jap OEM. Therefore they stopped producing their A-kit for the buying public...
JB 19
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JB 19 12/16/2011 1:00am
12/16/2011 1:00am
It sure seems to me that suspension has gotten much better in the past 8-10 years, but maybe I have just gotten better at setting it up. The suspension game really is a chess match with an infinite number of moves. It seems like the shock rebound damping is the main thing that has gotten a lot better on stock bikes.

I will say that probably the best handling bike I rode was a 96 cr 250 that we bought from Mark Burkhart, which he won the 250 B stock class on at LL's . That bike was set up by Bones Bacon.
wow123
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wow123 12/16/2011 4:01am
12/16/2011 4:01am
I've asked something like this before?

Can someone please post some pics of
Exploded diagram style
Stock forks
"A" kit
Full Works (if at all possible)

I certainly haven't noticed much improvement in the last 10/15 yrs

I did notice when I was on a revalved 95 kx 250
my very well off mate put ohlins
front and back on his yz400f,
it could take the square edge hits without a blink.

Nearly bought a TM (that wouldnt sell on feebay) in oz a few years back just to strip the ohlins off it.
Though I have heard that they are not the same as the ones sold as an "upgrade" for other bikes.

Metty did mention how much better the factory suspension is in a recent interview
but of course his level and most of ours aren't in the same ball park.

Would love to ride, a set up for me factory suspension bike, but unless you could keep them
you feel crap about going back if they were that good.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 12/16/2011 12:18pm
12/16/2011 12:18pm
wow123 wrote:
I've asked something like this before? Can someone please post some pics of Exploded diagram style Stock forks "A" kit Full Works (if at all possible)...
I've asked something like this before?

Can someone please post some pics of
Exploded diagram style
Stock forks
"A" kit
Full Works (if at all possible)

I certainly haven't noticed much improvement in the last 10/15 yrs

I did notice when I was on a revalved 95 kx 250
my very well off mate put ohlins
front and back on his yz400f,
it could take the square edge hits without a blink.

Nearly bought a TM (that wouldnt sell on feebay) in oz a few years back just to strip the ohlins off it.
Though I have heard that they are not the same as the ones sold as an "upgrade" for other bikes.

Metty did mention how much better the factory suspension is in a recent interview
but of course his level and most of ours aren't in the same ball park.

Would love to ride, a set up for me factory suspension bike, but unless you could keep them
you feel crap about going back if they were that good.
Correct me anyone, but I thought the diff between stock and like B stuff was reduction in friction primarily? And to make fitting better? Coating everywhere and some adjustment with fitting, as in less play or less bind?
To bad DV can put his 0.2 cents, I thought he said he used the stock kyb on his factory yzf 05 during the motocross season?
Scott_Hack
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Scott_Hack 12/18/2011 7:45pm
12/18/2011 7:45pm
CamP wrote:
The Suzuki Full floater rear suspension that was produced 30 years ago is still good by today's standards. The low hanging fruit has all been plucked.
Scott_Hack wrote:
Ding, Ding, Ding! Best rear suspension ever made, hands down. CamP, sometime in the next year, I will start testing a YZ250 smoker with full-floater rear...
Ding, Ding, Ding! Best rear suspension ever made, hands down.

CamP, sometime in the next year, I will start testing a YZ250 smoker with full-floater rear suspension. Interested in helping out?
CamP wrote:
That sounds ambitious. I have some '83 full floater parts if you need them.
It's a complete re-design of the rear section of the bike (obviously). We started with wanting to graft the parts from an '01-'03 full floater, but have backed off that and will try make parts from scratch. I've already got the spare frame to hack up, various shocks are available and will start by hacking up a spare swingarm from an '06 YZ. It's kind of fun, but a total backburner project.
Moto East Mag 12/18/2011 8:14pm
12/18/2011 8:14pm
How about electromagnetic suspension.
Which can take thousands of reading a second and adjust the suspension in realtime.
loftyair
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loftyair 12/18/2011 10:04pm
12/18/2011 10:04pm
Drew580 wrote:
i think the forks were mounted upside down to reduce unsprung weight also
But the 'inner' steel tubes weigh alot more than the thin aluminum 'outer' tubes. Conventionals are a better design.
lumpy790
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lumpy790 12/18/2011 10:22pm
12/18/2011 10:22pm
99.9% sure the 96 RM's right side up forks were the 1st sealed twin chamber forks.
Derpin' DJ
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Derpin' DJ 12/18/2011 10:51pm
12/18/2011 10:51pm
Moto East Mag wrote:
How about electromagnetic suspension.
Which can take thousands of reading a second and adjust the suspension in realtime.
Sort of like pneumatic engine valves. It'd raise the bike cost by a fair amount though
exsarg
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exsarg 12/18/2011 10:56pm
12/18/2011 10:56pm
i have a 12 yz 250 f and a 11 350 sxf. night and day difference. vet expert in both offroad and mx. yz 100% better on the track, then the ktm. exact opposite offroad.

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