Is #800 overtrained?

Ing
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Ing
Edited Date/Time 6/6/2012 6:26pm
Title says it. MA can run at the front for half the moto then fades slowly to 4th or 5th place almost everytime. For the first half of the race he's actually pulling away and then he seems to "hit the wall". Comments?
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dboivin
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dboivin 9/13/2011 11:20am
9/13/2011 11:20am
idunno but he sure sucks in the "huckabucks".....outdoors and indoors. surprised no one commented on every pass on him second moto was thru there. In supercross....same thing. If i was the 800, i would have a private track out my backdoor that had whoops in every straight.
Camp332
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Camp332 9/13/2011 11:25am
9/13/2011 11:25am
I'm no Mike Alessi, but I noticed that when I trained hard on the weights during the moto season, I could not ride as well. That's just my slow take on the situation. He seems to hit the weights pretty hard.
fasteddie69 9/13/2011 11:26am
9/13/2011 11:26am
From a fitness perspective, the fact that he is leading, then fading at the end would suggest that he is not fit enough! Maybe he needs to do more base training to improve his cardiovascular fitness? I would be very interested to know what his program is, especially as I am a personal trainer by trade.

From a technical perspective, he needs to nail the whoops. Until he does this, he will not be a contender.
jasonv43
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jasonv43 9/13/2011 11:30am
9/13/2011 11:30am
dboivin wrote:
idunno but he sure sucks in the "huckabucks".....outdoors and indoors. surprised no one commented on every pass on him second moto was thru there. In supercross....same...
idunno but he sure sucks in the "huckabucks".....outdoors and indoors. surprised no one commented on every pass on him second moto was thru there. In supercross....same thing. If i was the 800, i would have a private track out my backdoor that had whoops in every straight.
His line selection through them was all the way to the left and sometimes off the track at Pala. Everybody else was further to the right and only a few were going all the way to the right.

Couple of guys almost came unglued in there. Could have been real bad for them.

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ty159
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ty159 9/13/2011 11:37am
9/13/2011 11:37am
It could be a symptom of not controling his breathing. I know from years of riding, wrestling, and competitve weightlifting, that if you don't know how to control your breathing it can cause you problems, no matter how much you train!
mxtech1
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mxtech1 9/13/2011 11:46am
9/13/2011 11:46am
I don't think he he spends enough time on the bike. I don't know him obvisouly, but from hearing him talk in interviews and The Moto all it talks about is how hard he trains and how much time he spends doing cardio, lifting, and cycling. Very few clips of him putting in long motos. But i do see clips of him doing starts all the time. I think he should be doing more riding and then start working out when he improves his speed and moto endurance.

Like I said though, I am not around his program so I don't know exactly what he does, but im just calling it as i see it from the information he puts into the media.
Madmax31
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Madmax31 9/13/2011 11:48am
9/13/2011 11:48am
MIke had some bad wrecks. I think the Red Bud crash is stil in the back of his mind. He was much faster prior to crash.
500guy
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500guy 9/13/2011 11:49am
9/13/2011 11:49am
if anything he does to much, has to much pressure during the week and doesn't ever feel like he has done enough.

Mike has tracks and whoops to ride, He also has shoulder problems, very possible his body will not let him attack whoops properly.
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Cygnus 9/13/2011 11:55am
9/13/2011 11:55am
Just about the time it takes for the rear shock to overheat on the KTM.
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tp4 9/13/2011 11:55am
9/13/2011 11:55am
fear..some nasty cashes..not willing to hang it out...but still fast ..but in control.
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500guy 9/13/2011 11:58am
9/13/2011 11:58am
Cygnus wrote:
Just about the time it takes for the rear shock to overheat on the KTM.
I have thought that about several bikes. Factory Connection bikes seem to do the same, 10-15 minutes in they look ragged.
fasteddie69 9/13/2011 12:01pm
9/13/2011 12:01pm
mxtech1 wrote:
I don't think he he spends enough time on the bike. I don't know him obvisouly, but from hearing him talk in interviews and The Moto...
I don't think he he spends enough time on the bike. I don't know him obvisouly, but from hearing him talk in interviews and The Moto all it talks about is how hard he trains and how much time he spends doing cardio, lifting, and cycling. Very few clips of him putting in long motos. But i do see clips of him doing starts all the time. I think he should be doing more riding and then start working out when he improves his speed and moto endurance.

Like I said though, I am not around his program so I don't know exactly what he does, but im just calling it as i see it from the information he puts into the media.
This reply makes a lot of sense to me. You can do all the cardio, weights, circuits etc in the world, but nothing beats riding the bike!

During the season, it would make no sense for him to be doing a lot of weights and cycling. He would be better off doing more time on the bike.

SPECIFICITY!!
wired4speed 9/13/2011 12:30pm
9/13/2011 12:30pm
I would love to see someone ask Alessi what it is that is holding him back. I just don't see him as aggressive in the corners as he was prior to his 350 stint. Alessi can run in the top 3 but it seems like he rides conservatively as the race progresses. I don't think it's a fitness issue.
SteveS
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SteveS 9/13/2011 12:31pm
9/13/2011 12:31pm
He needs to take his motorhome and visit Chad and go wakeboarding and jet skiing?
BattlezFMX 9/13/2011 12:34pm
9/13/2011 12:34pm
Cygnus wrote:
Just about the time it takes for the rear shock to overheat on the KTM.
This is one issue ^. Think they even tried adding an extra reseviour to the rear shock about 3 races ago. Was better but still fading bad.
mxtech1
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mxtech1 9/13/2011 12:55pm
9/13/2011 12:55pm
Cygnus wrote:
Just about the time it takes for the rear shock to overheat on the KTM.
500guy wrote:
I have thought that about several bikes. Factory Connection bikes seem to do the same, 10-15 minutes in they look ragged.
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such a progressive stack that sometimes nearly all the shock oil will diverge through the stack and cause a pressure difference on the oil flowing through the internal return loop in the shock. This pressure difference creates microscopic bubbles in the shock fluid, also known as cavitation. Cavitation = heat and oil fade because after prolonged use (say towards the end of the moto) the oil starts to lose its viscosity. The nitrogen pressure in the shock bladder compressing the shock oil allows cavitation to occur at a lower temperature then it would as if it were at room temperature. Just like how we can boil water at nearly room temperature if you increase the pressure inside the pot high enough.

3 ways to prevent caviation: cooler oil temperatures, less nitrogen pressure, or an alteration to the shim stack and bypass ports for oil flow. If a rider finds a valve stack that works extremely well up to that point where cavitation occurs, they probably will settle and won't change the shim stack. Likewise with adding more nitrogen pressure to the shock bladder as this will increase the compression on the shim stack. This is why remote resovoirs are popular because more oil volume = greater time to heat up the shock fluid with no change on how the shim stack and internal circuits work.
nc_mx_kid
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nc_mx_kid 9/13/2011 1:08pm
9/13/2011 1:08pm
dboivin wrote:
idunno but he sure sucks in the "huckabucks".....outdoors and indoors. surprised no one commented on every pass on him second moto was thru there. In supercross....same...
idunno but he sure sucks in the "huckabucks".....outdoors and indoors. surprised no one commented on every pass on him second moto was thru there. In supercross....same thing. If i was the 800, i would have a private track out my backdoor that had whoops in every straight.
his track down in FL. has plenty of huckerbuckers
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CR250Rider 9/13/2011 1:32pm
9/13/2011 1:32pm
Cygnus wrote:
Just about the time it takes for the rear shock to overheat on the KTM.
500guy wrote:
I have thought that about several bikes. Factory Connection bikes seem to do the same, 10-15 minutes in they look ragged.
mxtech1 wrote:
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such...
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such a progressive stack that sometimes nearly all the shock oil will diverge through the stack and cause a pressure difference on the oil flowing through the internal return loop in the shock. This pressure difference creates microscopic bubbles in the shock fluid, also known as cavitation. Cavitation = heat and oil fade because after prolonged use (say towards the end of the moto) the oil starts to lose its viscosity. The nitrogen pressure in the shock bladder compressing the shock oil allows cavitation to occur at a lower temperature then it would as if it were at room temperature. Just like how we can boil water at nearly room temperature if you increase the pressure inside the pot high enough.

3 ways to prevent caviation: cooler oil temperatures, less nitrogen pressure, or an alteration to the shim stack and bypass ports for oil flow. If a rider finds a valve stack that works extremely well up to that point where cavitation occurs, they probably will settle and won't change the shim stack. Likewise with adding more nitrogen pressure to the shock bladder as this will increase the compression on the shim stack. This is why remote resovoirs are popular because more oil volume = greater time to heat up the shock fluid with no change on how the shim stack and internal circuits work.
An aggressive valve stack can overheat a shock faster?

Why can't this be fixed?


( call me Captain Obvious )

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HatersSuck
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HatersSuck 9/13/2011 1:54pm
9/13/2011 1:54pm
Ing wrote:
Title says it. MA can run at the front for half the moto then fades slowly to 4th or 5th place almost everytime. For the first...
Title says it. MA can run at the front for half the moto then fades slowly to 4th or 5th place almost everytime. For the first half of the race he's actually pulling away and then he seems to "hit the wall". Comments?
Watching Mike ride is like going back to the late 90's. He simply does not have the style,speed or will to battle RV and Dungey. On top of that he might be the worst line guy in this sport. He kinda reminds of of DV later in his career. Once you beat him once then he is done. He will not fight you the next time.
500guy
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500guy 9/13/2011 2:03pm
9/13/2011 2:03pm
Cygnus wrote:
Just about the time it takes for the rear shock to overheat on the KTM.
500guy wrote:
I have thought that about several bikes. Factory Connection bikes seem to do the same, 10-15 minutes in they look ragged.
mxtech1 wrote:
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such...
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such a progressive stack that sometimes nearly all the shock oil will diverge through the stack and cause a pressure difference on the oil flowing through the internal return loop in the shock. This pressure difference creates microscopic bubbles in the shock fluid, also known as cavitation. Cavitation = heat and oil fade because after prolonged use (say towards the end of the moto) the oil starts to lose its viscosity. The nitrogen pressure in the shock bladder compressing the shock oil allows cavitation to occur at a lower temperature then it would as if it were at room temperature. Just like how we can boil water at nearly room temperature if you increase the pressure inside the pot high enough.

3 ways to prevent caviation: cooler oil temperatures, less nitrogen pressure, or an alteration to the shim stack and bypass ports for oil flow. If a rider finds a valve stack that works extremely well up to that point where cavitation occurs, they probably will settle and won't change the shim stack. Likewise with adding more nitrogen pressure to the shock bladder as this will increase the compression on the shim stack. This is why remote resovoirs are popular because more oil volume = greater time to heat up the shock fluid with no change on how the shim stack and internal circuits work.
Good information

Thanks
Ing
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Ing 9/13/2011 2:53pm
9/13/2011 2:53pm
He'll win, I'll bet on it. Put your money where your mouth is.
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Cygnus 9/13/2011 2:57pm
9/13/2011 2:57pm Edited Date/Time 9/13/2011 2:59pm
Ok I have 100 bucks that says he doesnt win a SX on a KTM in 2012.

Page bookmarked.
Ing
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Ing 9/13/2011 3:01pm
9/13/2011 3:01pm
You got it. Bookmarked. I'll take pay-pal. LOL
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Cygnus 9/13/2011 3:04pm
9/13/2011 3:04pm
Easiest 100 ill ever make.
Cygnus
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Cygnus 9/13/2011 3:05pm
9/13/2011 3:05pm
It does suck to have to bet against a rider I really like.
Ing
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Ing 9/13/2011 3:08pm
9/13/2011 3:08pm
I think you could find ANYONE on here to take the bet you just made. LOL One SX and I'm $100 richer. Let's see, what shall I buy.......
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P 9/13/2011 3:22pm
9/13/2011 3:22pm
It's his corner speed. That's just MHO. It's like the bike won't settle going into corners. Who knows though?


P
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FGR01 9/13/2011 3:28pm
9/13/2011 3:28pm
mxtech1 wrote:
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such...
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such a progressive stack that sometimes nearly all the shock oil will diverge through the stack and cause a pressure difference on the oil flowing through the internal return loop in the shock. This pressure difference creates microscopic bubbles in the shock fluid, also known as cavitation. Cavitation = heat and oil fade because after prolonged use (say towards the end of the moto) the oil starts to lose its viscosity. The nitrogen pressure in the shock bladder compressing the shock oil allows cavitation to occur at a lower temperature then it would as if it were at room temperature. Just like how we can boil water at nearly room temperature if you increase the pressure inside the pot high enough.

3 ways to prevent caviation: cooler oil temperatures, less nitrogen pressure, or an alteration to the shim stack and bypass ports for oil flow. If a rider finds a valve stack that works extremely well up to that point where cavitation occurs, they probably will settle and won't change the shim stack. Likewise with adding more nitrogen pressure to the shock bladder as this will increase the compression on the shim stack. This is why remote resovoirs are popular because more oil volume = greater time to heat up the shock fluid with no change on how the shim stack and internal circuits work.
Wrong.

Increased pressure does not lower the boiling point of a fluid. It raises the boiling point.

That is the purpose of a pressure cooker. By increasing the pressure it allows you to cook at a higher temperature without boiling over.

Same with a radiator cap. By increasing the pressure in the cooling system it allows the coolant to be hotter without boiling over.

Did you ever do the experiment in science class where you put a pot of water in a vacuum chamber? By LOWERING the pressure you can make the water boil at a lower temperature.

Same thing for cooking. water boils at lower temps as the altitude increases (pressure decreases): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_altitude_cooking
UpTiTe 9/13/2011 3:34pm
9/13/2011 3:34pm
He isn't over trained, he's under biked.
disbanded
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disbanded 9/13/2011 4:30pm
9/13/2011 4:30pm
It is silly to think that any of us know what Mike is or isn't doing.

That being said - I speculate that Mike is having trouble with his speed.

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