What Really Happened: RedBud RIP Josh Lichtle

mag23
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mag23 7/4/2011 2:40pm
7/4/2011 2:40pm
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from heat exhaustion or ride with a recent concussion are tough guys... Silly nobody mentions Eli Tomac, ruined everybody at Hangtown, nobody was close, was head and shoulders faster than everybody at Freestone, gets a heat stroke, suddenly he can't crack the top 10 for most of the remaining season. Total bummer that these guys are put in a position to have to push themselves this far... Please don't bring up older generations of racers, their pace wasn't even in the same galaxy as these guys today. RIP JL
GuyB
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GuyB 7/4/2011 2:48pm
7/4/2011 2:48pm
mag23 wrote:
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from...
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from heat exhaustion or ride with a recent concussion are tough guys... Silly nobody mentions Eli Tomac, ruined everybody at Hangtown, nobody was close, was head and shoulders faster than everybody at Freestone, gets a heat stroke, suddenly he can't crack the top 10 for most of the remaining season. Total bummer that these guys are put in a position to have to push themselves this far... Please don't bring up older generations of racers, their pace wasn't even in the same galaxy as these guys today. RIP JL
...which is a large part of the reason why the Tomacs had a freezer in the Geico Honda rig to freeze helmets in before the race there this year.
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 7/4/2011 2:53pm
7/4/2011 2:53pm
mag23 wrote:
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from...
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from heat exhaustion or ride with a recent concussion are tough guys... Silly nobody mentions Eli Tomac, ruined everybody at Hangtown, nobody was close, was head and shoulders faster than everybody at Freestone, gets a heat stroke, suddenly he can't crack the top 10 for most of the remaining season. Total bummer that these guys are put in a position to have to push themselves this far... Please don't bring up older generations of racers, their pace wasn't even in the same galaxy as these guys today. RIP JL
Well, it may sound morbid, but isn't the point of any sport for the athletes to push to their limits, identify those limits and figure out how to exceed them the next time? Don't all sports ratchet up, and up and up? And in this case, it was probably the combination of crashing and having to kick his bike for a long time that started his problem, not actually riding anyway. I just don't know how to make that not be an issue, other than repeatedly warn riders that when they get hot enough so the heat is impairing their sight, balance, and general perception of their world, it's time to pull off. I've had heat exhaustion before - you know it's happening in the earlier stages and you know it's time to call it a day.
flarider
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flarider 7/4/2011 2:59pm
7/4/2011 2:59pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
Well, it may sound morbid, but isn't the point of any sport for the athletes to push to their limits, identify those limits and figure out...
Well, it may sound morbid, but isn't the point of any sport for the athletes to push to their limits, identify those limits and figure out how to exceed them the next time? Don't all sports ratchet up, and up and up? And in this case, it was probably the combination of crashing and having to kick his bike for a long time that started his problem, not actually riding anyway. I just don't know how to make that not be an issue, other than repeatedly warn riders that when they get hot enough so the heat is impairing their sight, balance, and general perception of their world, it's time to pull off. I've had heat exhaustion before - you know it's happening in the earlier stages and you know it's time to call it a day.
That's like asking people to not drive buzzed.
They're buzzed, they don't think they're that impaired. They think they're fine, and they think they're fine because they are not in the right frame of mind to make good decisions.

How is someone supposed to know and identify the difference between tired, bonked or on the verge of a heat stroke or heat exhaustion?

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mag23
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mag23 7/4/2011 3:00pm
7/4/2011 3:00pm
a frozen helmet? C'mon dude, really? Frozen ice cube sure isn't gonna last long in the sun... I have a bad attitude today, I'm really bummed about this kid... But the frozen helmet, hey, guess I made my initial point
jtomasik
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jtomasik 7/4/2011 3:02pm
7/4/2011 3:02pm
I'm not sure about shortening races due to heat index. Drop your bike a few times a d that shortened race may mean squat. I'd rather see better cooling devices made available.
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RandyS 7/4/2011 3:18pm
7/4/2011 3:18pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2011 3:21pm
I don't think they are now but weren't Camelbacks illegal in AMA Motocross at one time. Maybe they should be manditory. I'm not sure how much taking on fluids during a 35 minute race helps but I don't see how it could hurt. Along with a serious talk about the dangers of heat at the riders meeting.

We're lucky to not be talking about losing two riders. I want to say it was RV at the end of moto 2 but someone yesterday was having trouble breathing while being interviewed. I don't think I've ever seen an interview with a rider having that much trouble.
DL
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DL 7/4/2011 3:43pm
7/4/2011 3:43pm
Well written article. FYI there were a few heat strokes at Loretta's last year and some of the kids suffer long term damage. IMHO coming up with a heat index and cutting time in the motos is not a knee jerk reaction and should be done. Bummer Josh had to pass in order to bring this issue to light.
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mxpaul802 7/4/2011 3:45pm
7/4/2011 3:45pm
RandyS wrote:
I don't think they are now but weren't Camelbacks illegal in AMA Motocross at one time. Maybe they should be manditory. I'm not sure how much...
I don't think they are now but weren't Camelbacks illegal in AMA Motocross at one time. Maybe they should be manditory. I'm not sure how much taking on fluids during a 35 minute race helps but I don't see how it could hurt. Along with a serious talk about the dangers of heat at the riders meeting.

We're lucky to not be talking about losing two riders. I want to say it was RV at the end of moto 2 but someone yesterday was having trouble breathing while being interviewed. I don't think I've ever seen an interview with a rider having that much trouble.
And in personal experience THATS when it hits you....When you stop. Once you stop and the mechanic takes your bike and your standing there trying to talk to people, or headed to the rig....thats when the whiteout starts happening. Im sure every racer has experienced the upper end of heat exhaustion bordering on heat stroke. Its weird and im no doctor but you go from profuse sweating to no sweat at all...your natural body cooling mechanism is gone. Extreme cramping is usually a symtom as well, but as i said previously....as your riding or moving its not noticed as much as when you stop.
bd
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bd 7/4/2011 3:51pm
7/4/2011 3:51pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2011 4:01pm
DL wrote:
Well written article. FYI there were a few heat strokes at Loretta's last year and some of the kids suffer long term damage. IMHO coming up...
Well written article. FYI there were a few heat strokes at Loretta's last year and some of the kids suffer long term damage. IMHO coming up with a heat index and cutting time in the motos is not a knee jerk reaction and should be done. Bummer Josh had to pass in order to bring this issue to light.
15 minute motos + 2 laps sounds like great idea in the pro class.

LL... how long are the motos?

Maybe Brett Metcalfe was onto something yesterday.

How many heat stroke deaths have happened in Pro MX in the last 30 years?

How many heat strokes?

Do not include heat exhaustion.... different story.
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bents 7/4/2011 3:52pm
7/4/2011 3:52pm
It is a tragedy and my prayers go out to the family first and foremost. Second, I don't think anyone or anything is to blame for this tragedy. It could be any number of factors-having to kick his bike a bunch of times, not being hydrated enough (it does take a lot of fluid to get properly hydrated BEFORE any kind of strenuous activity and it is easy to start in a deficit), to other factors.

Thousands of riders race thousands of laps each year in the USA under similar conditions. Thousands of marathon runners run thousands of marathons and there is the odd death due to heart attacks (and most of these are fit and well trained) or heat stroke. The iron man triathlon has the last portion of the race, the full marathon, in the heat of the day like no other.

We can't prevent everything, and I'm not saying that changes couldn't be made to more closely monitor extreme conditions, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water here. MX sports and the AMA would never put the race ahead of anything like this I firmly believe, and I hope that isn't what Steve is suggesting.

No one is stopping fmx from pushing the envelope-if they were that concerned about risk they would have stopped at the nac nac.

Prayers again-I'm terribly sorry for the family.
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Triton 7/4/2011 3:56pm
7/4/2011 3:56pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2011 3:57pm
reded wrote:
I've always wondered why there isn't more vented gear available or why racers stopped slitting their jerseys like they did back in the mid 90's. Every...
I've always wondered why there isn't more vented gear available or why racers stopped slitting their jerseys like they did back in the mid 90's. Every little bit of air flowing across wet skin on a hot day makes a lot of difference in comfort and health factors.
I test vented gear for one of the big brands here in AZ. You can't get anymore vented then they are. Body coolers and hydration tech is the next step. You aren't going to find it in the gear. Helmets maybe but not jersey and pants.
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MXMattii 7/4/2011 4:03pm
7/4/2011 4:03pm
mag23 wrote:
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from...
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from heat exhaustion or ride with a recent concussion are tough guys... Silly nobody mentions Eli Tomac, ruined everybody at Hangtown, nobody was close, was head and shoulders faster than everybody at Freestone, gets a heat stroke, suddenly he can't crack the top 10 for most of the remaining season. Total bummer that these guys are put in a position to have to push themselves this far... Please don't bring up older generations of racers, their pace wasn't even in the same galaxy as these guys today. RIP JL
GuyB wrote:
...which is a large part of the reason why the Tomacs had a freezer in the Geico Honda rig to freeze helmets in before the race...
...which is a large part of the reason why the Tomacs had a freezer in the Geico Honda rig to freeze helmets in before the race there this year.
Isn't this all going a bit to far??
bd
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bd 7/4/2011 4:05pm
7/4/2011 4:05pm
mag23 wrote:
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from...
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from heat exhaustion or ride with a recent concussion are tough guys... Silly nobody mentions Eli Tomac, ruined everybody at Hangtown, nobody was close, was head and shoulders faster than everybody at Freestone, gets a heat stroke, suddenly he can't crack the top 10 for most of the remaining season. Total bummer that these guys are put in a position to have to push themselves this far... Please don't bring up older generations of racers, their pace wasn't even in the same galaxy as these guys today. RIP JL
GuyB wrote:
...which is a large part of the reason why the Tomacs had a freezer in the Geico Honda rig to freeze helmets in before the race...
...which is a large part of the reason why the Tomacs had a freezer in the Geico Honda rig to freeze helmets in before the race there this year.
MXMattii wrote:
Isn't this all going a bit to far??
Tomac had heat exhaustion last year. Do not think preparation for the heat "goes to far."
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markymoto 7/4/2011 4:05pm
7/4/2011 4:05pm
from racer x's Jason Weigandt • Lots of folks were wondering why Brett Metcalfe was running a vest in the second 450 moto. Well, he wanted to wear it on the sighting lap, as the vest is chilled and keeps body temperature down. But he meant to take it off before the moto—he simply forgot to do it. Metty says he got really, really hot en route to fifth in that moto
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czernik 7/4/2011 4:17pm
7/4/2011 4:17pm
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czernik
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czernik 7/4/2011 4:20pm
7/4/2011 4:20pm
Where's Dave?" class="img-fluid" /> WFO Josh I miss you....to Dave and Vicky,my heart hurts for you.....
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machine 7/4/2011 4:24pm
7/4/2011 4:24pm
It will be interesting to hear the outcome of Metty's cool vest. Maybe other riders will start wearing them so we don't have to hear about tragic events like this.

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Matthes
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Matthes 7/4/2011 4:43pm
7/4/2011 4:43pm
It was very hot and humid at RedBud but in my opinion, it wasn't the worst race I've been at for heat. I can name three or four off the top my head in the 16 years I've been at the races as a mechanic or media dude.

Budds 98
Troy 97
Hangtown 00
Freestone '10

All come to mind as days where it was worse than it was on Saturday. RIP Josh.
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bobby397 7/4/2011 5:08pm
7/4/2011 5:08pm
prozach wrote:
This is an unfortunate event that sucks for everyone. But rider safety should and always should be the rider's responsibility. The article and your suggestion of...
This is an unfortunate event that sucks for everyone. But rider safety should and always should be the rider's responsibility. The article and your suggestion of shortening motos when it is hot is an overreaction IMO. We can't stop all injuries or deaths in sports or life in general. A professional athlete should be able to handle 35 min of exertion no matter how hot it is. If they can't a new fitness program should be established and they shouldn't race until they are prepared for the task at hand and should be responsible for their own personal fitness and well being. Again I am not downplaying his death, I am just saying that there was probably something else going on and athletes need to be aware of their own physical state and make the correct decisions while on the track.
Metcalfe had a heat stroke last year, do you not think he was prepared?
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ODB 7/4/2011 5:16pm
7/4/2011 5:16pm
how many riders have been hit by lightning.??......BD, a knee jerk reaction !!,lets keep lettin em drop like flies ................shortening a race for rain is a joke compared to shortening a race for health reasons ,10 riders dropped out the first moto ,how many were heat related .......................its too bad someone always has to die for people to wake up and analyze things a little differently .....................look at football now ,nobody is tougher than those guys and they made the changes
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Flatliner 7/4/2011 5:22pm
7/4/2011 5:22pm
GuyB wrote:
...which is a large part of the reason why the Tomacs had a freezer in the Geico Honda rig to freeze helmets in before the race...
...which is a large part of the reason why the Tomacs had a freezer in the Geico Honda rig to freeze helmets in before the race there this year.
MXMattii wrote:
Isn't this all going a bit to far??
bd wrote:
Tomac had heat exhaustion last year. Do not think preparation for the heat "goes to far."
I agree.

I soak my jersey in cold water on hot days.
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wow123 7/4/2011 5:25pm
7/4/2011 5:25pm
mag23 wrote:
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from...
nothing will be learned, not many Phds roaming around the pits... It's really a bummer that the race culture looks at guys who pass out from heat exhaustion or ride with a recent concussion are tough guys... Silly nobody mentions Eli Tomac, ruined everybody at Hangtown, nobody was close, was head and shoulders faster than everybody at Freestone, gets a heat stroke, suddenly he can't crack the top 10 for most of the remaining season. Total bummer that these guys are put in a position to have to push themselves this far... Please don't bring up older generations of racers, their pace wasn't even in the same galaxy as these guys today. RIP JL
Well the pace doesn't count, anybody overexerting themselves in hot conditions can suffer from heat related problems.

Condolences to the family and rip to Josh
814Designs
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814Designs 7/4/2011 5:26pm
7/4/2011 5:26pm
IMO The vest like Metcalfe was wearing is not the answer. Drivers in other racing series have been trying them for years and very few take the chance to use them because when those things fail they turn into a boiling suit. Literally the fluid inside the vest turns into a boiling substance and instead of cooling your body it instantly spikes your bodies core temperature and your body can not dissipate any heat at all. While there is room for improvement, these vests currently are not the answer. There are too many things that can go wrong in motocross to cause them to reverse the effects and cause an even bigger problem even faster. A camelback or hydration system would be way more effective than those vests.
Jeff_Alessi
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Jeff_Alessi 7/4/2011 5:43pm
7/4/2011 5:43pm Edited Date/Time 7/4/2011 5:47pm
Some of u guys should be ashamed of what u say, a person died, that person was loved by so many people, he was n idol to some, it is ridiculous it has come to this, will there be a change, I doubt it.

Let me say this, how many of u on the track racing are actually concentrated on what your body feels like huh? Josh was out there racing an event that an organization has put together, we are pushing ourselves AND EACHOTHER to a level thats has become to dangerous to overlook the conditions we do this in, do u think any rider is gonna go and ask for the motos to be shortened? No! A young man paid the ultimate price, u no what, I'm beginning to think the riders r looked at as a mule to push to the limit l, pay nothing to and use up, because u no when they either quit or give up or get hurt trying in this ridiculous sport, there's gonna be 25 more idiots willing to risk it all to be treated unfairly. It's bullshit. Safetly is number one in any case of life and I feel it's not a major priority to the people in charge of sending out there troops. I have seen my brother ride to the point in the heat where he has passed out, u ask him why he didn't stop n it was because he was doing his job riding the bike, it's the organizations JOB to keep the riders safe. There not doing there job. I watch it in both sx n mx,


I'm extremely upset over this, I wonder how many other racers r scratching there heads n opening there eyes.
click click bang bang 7/4/2011 5:43pm
7/4/2011 5:43pm
Am I the only one who doesn't like camelbacks? I feel like they mess up my breathing whenever I'm trying to get water.


RIP Josh, you were a bad MOFO
Nerd
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Nerd 7/4/2011 5:57pm
7/4/2011 5:57pm
I added an addendum to the end of the article because there is a policy in place for hot days.

As for Budds, it's true about the dam, but then we could just talk about red flags at Unadilla the same year, or the year before, for lightning. The point isn't about the exact event, it's just about trying to find a solution to try and prevent something like this from happening again, if such a solution exists. Ultimately, I'm just heartbroken about this, and I know I'm not alone in this, and I want to believe there's something that can be done to prevent it from happening again. Is there? I don't know.

Best wishes again to the family and friends. My recommendation is for everyone to grab your loved ones and give them an extra hug and kiss today - everyday, for that matter.
aFACEdismembered 7/4/2011 6:32pm
7/4/2011 6:32pm
I wouldnt be opposed to 3 20+2 motos as a fan if either the temp or heat index are to get above 100. It might even make the racing better. I think theres better solutions but that one is very easy.
MXD
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MXD 7/4/2011 6:32pm
7/4/2011 6:32pm
I saw this mentioned on another board:

More on the story from ESPN here

At the 36:57 mark you can see Josh on his hands and knees as Villopoto goes by
RandyS
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RandyS 7/4/2011 6:54pm
7/4/2011 6:54pm
Maybe there needs to be a mister system on the parts of the track with direct sunlight on excessive heat days. It would at least allow a little bit of relief. I'm not really sure how much would hit the goggles. I have them on my deck and it really doesn't get you wet unless you stand next to a jet. But I know it feels like it drops the heat 20 degrees. Yeah it's a stupid idea but it might help. It's less stupid than riders losing their lives from trying to restart their lawn tractor.

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