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How do you explain away the experiences people have had with the paranormal? Do you think they are lying?
Exactly. Which is why I do not believe in a god. But I don't have any reason to even consider believing in a god any more than I have a reason to consider believing in FSM. I do believe in a lot of things but there is plenty of evidence for the things that I believe.
Some are probably lying. But, some probably really believe what they think they have experienced. That certainly doesn't make it reality. But then, what is reality really? I mean I may not even be here typing this right now. It may be a dream.
I understand. I've thought about it a lot myself. I didn't have an intensly religious upbringing but we did go to church . I go to church now occasionally with my mom , more for her than me . I'd be lying if I said I never did and still do have doubts but I'd never tell my mom that as it would hurt her .
My dad passed a couple years ago from cancer . We were all in the room with him when he died . As he passed I had an overwhelming feeling he was being born somewhere else . I almost envied him . That has nothing to do with what we're discussing but just thought I'd add it. I'm 99% sure it was just a feeling my mind produced nothing more but there's always that 1% chance .
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Your first paragraph makes us almost identical. My entire family is very religious. I grew up going to church, because my mother brought me there. I do still go to church every time someone in my family gets married or dies (the latter is much more often the case these days). I don't tell my mother my beliefs, just because she's happy believing what she believes, no sense rocking the boat. I'm not saying there is no harm in her believing what she believes though because there was a time when she sent a lot of checks to Jim and Tammy Baker. She is a very giving person (but also very naive). When I visit my parents these days they usually stay home from church because they know/feel that that is the last place I want to go. In fact the last time I went to a funeral with my mother I made the comment "I hope this place doesn't burn down from me being here" so she surely knows, but we don't talk about it.
Sorry to hear about your father, I am losing a lot of family and friends to cancer these days. It really sucks. I figure I'm getting really close to being next in line. There is a somewhat similar religious experience story in my family. We lost my little sister in a car accident back in 92 (she was 19, 10 years younger than me). I don't think she was too religious but my dad said she was talking about seeing angels a couple days before the accident. Now you would think that would make me wonder, but it doesn't.
I also had an awkward experience when I was back home last time and my best friend/cousin/best man at my wedding told me about his literal god experience. He even takes over and runs the church service for our pastor when he can't be there to preach. To be honest I can't even remember the exact story but he totally believed what he experienced was real. It had no affect whatsoever as far as what I believe as I've never personally had an experience like that. I know he had a big issue with a brain aneurysm years ago which might have been related to his experience. I actually have had a few TIAs myself over the last few years, that temporarily (several hours) caused me to not remember anyone on my wife's side of the family and not be able to read. Maybe my brain issue has caused the opposite effect and made it impossible for me to believe.
Either way, all I can say is that we all appear to be different, and for the most part that is okay (as long as it doesn't end up in violence).
Where did god (the Christian/Jewish/Muslim god) come from? It came from a book that was written by man/men over the last couple of thousand years. Man is known to have quite an imagination.
Oh, and sorry for rambling on with this but you have to understand that this has been great therapy for me. I never talk about any of this anywhere else and being able to talk to people about it feels very therapeutic. If this discussion offends please don't feel obligated to click on the thread. If it makes you feel uneasy, maybe that's a positive sign. It's good to question.
It's a very interesting subject . Although technically I think discussion on religion is banned in this forum but this has all been good and civil . I would hope ML would allow it .
I believe sleep paralysis is the cause of a lot of paranormal experiences
I also believe peoples brains also tell them something scary is happening when it isn’t. Humans are very good at tricking themselves into seeing patterns when they don’t exist
Think about how easy it is to spook yourself when you’re alone, or somewhere new in the dark. Rationally, there is nothing that you should be frightened about, youve been in the situation 100s of times before and nothing has happened, yet you hear one noise or see something out of the corner of your eye and now youre on high alert
now picture someone who firmly believes in the paranormal or aliens, it would take the smallest bit of something being strange for them to be convinced.
If you were raised in a home that your parents told you had ghosts, you’d probably think that there were ghosts in the house. “Hmmm I know I put those keys in the left drawer, but now they’re in the right drawer”. Logically, you just put the keys in the right drawer, but if you’ve been told there’s ghosts in your house your whole childhood, the ghost put the key in the right drawer
Yeah, typically this conversation is not possible with civility. I figured it would have been gone long ago. I'm glad people haven't gone off the deep end.
Sorry for quoting this again but one more thing you said in your first paragraph sticks in my mind. You said:
"I'd be lying if I said I never did and still do have doubts..."
I really think "most" religious people would say the same thing. But what this tells me is that you've never really had a convincing religious experience. That is, you may have prayed but I have to assume that you never got a response. You've never (personally) had an experience that could be explained in no other way but for it to be a god's doing. If that were the case you would not have any doubt. You would know "for sure" that a god exists and you have experienced it.
I used to be in that boat so I know how it feels, and I do believe that points back to Pascal's Wager. But, even if you are pretty sure that there is no god but you can't rule it out you almost have to follow Pascal's Wager. That is, the consequences would be far too great to be wrong (according to the bible). So to get to my point you have to be pretty sure ha ha.
It definitely took a lot of soul searching for me to end up where I am but I am extremely comfortable with where I am.
Quoting books and articles is different from original thought.
Pascal addressed the difficulty that reason and rationality pose to genuine belief by proposing that "acting as if [one] believed" could "cure [one] of unbelief":
In other words, the answer for you and me is try harder. I'm sorry Pascal, that isn't going to cut it. What would it take to believe that 2 + 2 = 5? It was not something that Winston Smith could do by "trying harder".
Quoting the Bible?
Those are the evolutionary traits that are responsible for us making it this far and not ending up extinct (yet). Kind of like deer, they run from everything. If they don't they will surely get eaten by something. Humans used to be in the same boat before our brains evolved enough to get us to the top of the food chain. Of course we still have a chance of getting eaten by a mountain lion or bear if we're walking on a trail in the mountains so those traits are still not completely useless.
That trait no longer appears to be in this guy's gene pool however:
I’m a believer. I also acknowledge that void has suffered every parent’s worst nightmare so I don’t think any of us should pass judgment. (Not saying that anyone is) I will, however, send another prayer his way. VM is a good dude.
I think with some people you’re right about that. But that still doesn’t account for proven paranormal activity as well UFO sightings. Of course there are a lot of hoses out there.
I agree, I’ve been praying for Void too. Since this thread started and we’ve had conversation.👍🏻
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Proven paranormal activity? I can only assume you are talking about quantum entanglement. If not I would like to know more.
I have not had a convincing religious experience. The closest would be what I felt was at my Dad's passing which certainly wouldn't align with Christian beliefs as it would be related to reincarnation.
I can definitely relate to where you're coming from but I'm not in the same place . Is it fear of hell or oblivion ? I don't know . I've often thought , well if treating others the way you want to be treated and trying to be the best person you can be is not good enough to get you "in" maybe it wouldn't be a place for me anyway if it does exist .
I had never heard of Pascal's Wager until now . The problem I see with his rational is what if in your heart you don't truly believe? Won't God see through it ?
Also sometimes I look at this world think , is believing in a creator any more far fetched than thinking it all just exploded into existence from nothing? I don't know .
This to me is a serious topic, and going off the deep end which ever side you’re on certainly doesn’t further ones argument. Golf clap to everyone that has participated in this conversation…..👏💯👍🏻
That’s tough to answer. It depends. Why is the person quoting the Bible? The point is, am I quoting the Bible to try and “one up” the other person, or am I truly trying to encourage and build up that person, whether they ever believe like me or not?
I was half joking with that response but I asked Grok what it thought about it. I like playing around with the AI even though I've found it to give blatantly incorrect answers often. Here's the question and response:
Q) Could quantum entanglement explain paranormal activity?
A) Quantum entanglement is a well-established phenomenon in quantum mechanics where two or more particles become linked such that the quantum state of each particle cannot be described independently, even when separated by vast distances. Changes to one particle's state instantaneously correlate with the other's, a feature Einstein famously dubbed "spooky action at a distance." This has been experimentally confirmed, including in tests that close loopholes in interpretations of quantum theory. However, entanglement does not allow for faster-than-light communication or the transfer of usable information, as measuring one particle randomizes the outcome without violating relativity.
Paranormal activity, on the other hand, refers to phenomena like telepathy, ghosts, precognition, or psychokinesis—events that appear to defy known physical laws and lack reproducible scientific evidence. Claims linking quantum entanglement to these date back decades, often in fringe or speculative contexts, but they remain unsubstantiated by mainstream science.
### Claims Linking Entanglement to the Paranormal
Some proponents argue that entanglement could underpin paranormal experiences:
- **Telepathy or Shared Consciousness:** If human minds or brains operate on quantum levels (e.g., via microtubules in neurons), entangled particles might enable instant "connections" between people, explaining ESP or remote viewing. Books and articles suggest this could extend to a "quantum consciousness" where minds are interconnected beyond space-time.
- **Ghosts and Afterlife Phenomena:** Ghosts might be "echoes" of deceased individuals' quantum states entangled with the living world, or manifestations from parallel realities in a multiverse. Some speculate that entanglement preserves consciousness post-death, allowing interactions like hauntings.
- **Other Paranormal Events:** Precognition or psychokinesis could arise from entangled systems influencing reality at a quantum scale, blurring cause and effect. Discussions on platforms like Reddit and X echo this, with users proposing entanglement as a bridge between science and the supernatural.
These ideas often draw from quantum features like superposition (particles existing in multiple states) or observer effects (measurement collapsing wave functions), positing that consciousness plays a role in reality. Influential figures in parapsychology, like Dean Radin, explore psi phenomena through quantum lenses, though without conclusive proof.
### Scientific Counterarguments
Despite the allure, mainstream physics rejects these links for several reasons:
- **No Evidence for Paranormal Phenomena:** Paranormal claims fail under rigorous testing. Studies show no reliable psi effects, and explanations often rely on misinterpretations of quantum mechanics. A 2024 analysis of pseudoscientific beliefs among physics students highlights how quantum concepts are co-opted for mystical ideas without basis.
- **Entanglement Doesn't Enable "Spooky" Powers:** While entanglement is "spooky," it requires initial interaction and decoheres rapidly in macroscopic systems like brains due to environmental noise. It can't transmit information or cause macro-scale effects like moving objects or reading minds. This is often called "quantum quackery"—abusing quantum jargon to lend credibility to unproven ideas.
- **Brain and Quantum Scales Mismatch:** Theories like Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR) by Penrose and Hameroff propose quantum processes in consciousness, but they're speculative and unproven. Even if true, they wouldn't explain paranormal events. Paranormal explanations via electromagnetism or other fields have been proposed but lack support.
- **Alternative Explanations:** Many "paranormal" experiences stem from psychology (e.g., hallucinations, confirmation bias) or natural causes, not quantum effects.
| Aspect | Pro-Entanglement Claim | Scientific Rebuttal |
|--------|-------------------------|---------------------|
| Telepathy | Minds entangled like particles for instant info sharing. | Entanglement doesn't transfer classical information; brains aren't isolated quantum systems. |
| Ghosts | Entangled remnants of consciousness persisting after death. | No mechanism for consciousness to "entangle" post-mortem; ghosts lack empirical evidence. |
| Precognition | Retrocausality via quantum effects allowing future glimpses. | Time-symmetric quantum interpretations exist but don't support precognition in experiments. |
In summary, while quantum entanglement inspires fascinating speculation about the paranormal, it does not explain such activity based on current evidence. These connections often amount to pseudoscience, exploiting quantum weirdness without rigorous proof. Science may one day uncover new links if paranormal phenomena are proven real, but for now, entanglement remains a tool for understanding particles, not poltergeists.
The thing is what you don’t see or accept as evidence of a creator I do. Nature itself and how everything works in harmony, the earth and how it’s positioned in relation to the sun, plants, animals, ect ect ect are all irrefutable proof to me, that there is a higher power that made all this. Honestly it would take life times for a simpleton like myself to describe in detail the depth of complexity of what surrounds us , that again is irrefutable proof of a creator. This couldn’t possibly have just happened over trillions of years .
Void, do you understand all that Grok gave you?
Yes, that is the problem with Pascal's Wager. Regarding reincarnation I have also thought about that a lot through the years. Religious people here have said (in not so many words) how can I not want an afterlife like heaven? Well, like you have just eluded you can't really "choose" what to believe and if there is a god and that god is all knowing, he surely would see through me pretending to believe just to get to heaven. Which also means of course that I would end up in a fiery hell for eternity for not believing. I'd rather not like that option even though it would be the god's fault, not mine since he would have created me that way.
As to weather we come back to this planet (or some other planet) at some future time after we die in some form, I have come to the conclusion that I don't particularly like that idea either. What if I come back as a child in one of the poor countries with no food to eat and suffer all my life. Or what if I come back as an axe murderer. Or worse yet what if I come back as a cat or a dog living in the house of a terrible owner who kicks me every day of my life?
Neither of those options sound very good to me so I have come to hope that the end is the end. That's the only real end I can think of where there will be no more suffering. I of course cannot know if that's right but I'll be finding out soon enough I guess.
Actually I do for the most part, but that's the kind of stuff I read about or watch videos on almost nightly before I fall asleep. Yes, I am sick.
So what’s your opinion on all this?
There was a time when I thought exactly that. In fact I can remember one time specifically when one night (probably after midnight) I was lying on the taxiway next to my A-10 at King Fahd International Airport in Saudi Arabia (it was under construction and we borrowed it at the time for a little fun in the desert) in late August of 1990. I was staring into the night sky and looking at all the stars (the sky was incredible because there was no light pollution). I thought to myself "how can all of this just be random". Of course at that time things were getting a little scary in my life and I had no idea how future months were going to go. Thankfully they ended up going our way but I did see Scuds fly over and patriots not too far from my tent taking many of them out (causing me to crap my pants). One of the warheads came down and took out a few coalition solders in our camp.
But I have since, after massive amounts of research since, have been able to come to terms that it is not necessary for there to have been a god to create our universe. It's just a cop out to say "I do not understand, therefore a god must have done it". People say what happened before the big bang. I say what happened before god? Not to mention, what version of god do you believe in. I mean you have already told me that you believe in an all knowing creating god that you can pray to and he'll hear your prayers. That's not the kind of god most of our forefather's believed in. They believed in god, but they were deists. That is, god created, then left the scene. He didn't care what happened after he got things in motion.
Is god a he, a she or an it? Is he white and have a beard? Or, is god just defined as the sum of all the laws of the universe? If that's what god is then I guess I believe in god. But as Carl Sagan said, using the word god is too broad, because it means many different things to many different people. You have to be more specific.
What is my opinion of Grok's answer to my question? It seems reasonable. I think the last paragraph sums it up pretty well and I would tend to agree with it.
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