I was reading another thread about bikes for kids and it brought me back to what I think is a missed opportunity from the manufacturer, serious playbikes.
When I think playbikes I go to Honda CRF-F’s, Yamaha TTR’s and Kawasaki KLX’s and other such bikes. Great low maintenance bikes that most anyone in the family can ride. The problem is in most cases they are dangerous if actually taken off road on any kind of trail. Great bikes for cow trailing and buzzing down a two track but hit any trail whoops or push the bike in any manner and you will tie the bike in knots in short order.
Great, another bitch about things thread with no solutions, right? Wrong. I suggest a little parts bin engineering for a bike that would sell like hotcakes. Keep the same durable simple air-cooled engines but put them in a previous or way previous generation frame and running gear. Any of those bikes in a 125 sized chassis with mid aughts era suspension would be a great ride and fun for anyone in the family. There are plenty of kids that are too big for 85’s but may not have the skills or desire to get on a fire breather so get them a serious playbike and who knows they may find out they love it and become life long racers. A YZ250FX sells for $8900 and a TTR230 sells for $4500, a TTR230R that sold for $6500 would sell out every year with minimal changes and updates with the associated engineering savings. I would love to have one for my wife and I would most likely use it as a scout bike looking for new race trail and I would probably use it as a training tool, concentrate on technique instead of speed. If you can go fast on a slow bike you’re a threat to win on a fast bike.
I have a ‘23 250F, and 3 KLX140s. I enjoy riding the 140s a lot more than my 250, there’s something about riding a gutless motor that’s fun to me. That being said, if there was an option for a 140 or 230 motor in a 250 chassis, I’d be all over it. I’ve wanted to experiment putting a built 140 motor in a 250F chassis but it hasn’t panned out, I’m really curious to what it would be like. Would it still have the pitbike/playbike feel, or would it just be a slow big bike.
I love that idea. I have considered suggesting a playbike unlimited class in our organization so people could do just that type of build.
I do see your point but at a $6500 price tag I don't think it would sell as well as you may think.
Their our company's that do make similar bikes but not in that big of a chassis though GPX newest lineup is expanding on using bigger chassis and bigger motors but not as powerful as a yamaha honda kawasaki suzuki etc.
Check their newest lineup below.
https://gpxmoto.com/product-category/off-road-motorcycles/mid-size-full…
They do offer a good starter 250 as well for under $5,000
Honestly, if they just made a premium version of the TTR/KLX/CRF with 85/150 suspension components for <$1000 more, I think it would be a decent seller. Tons of dudes seem to spend that to bolt up those mods anyways
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Would there be enough oomph to move that chassis along?
KLX300R is pretty close to what you are asking for.
https://www.kawasaki.com/en-us/motorcycle/klx/off-road/klx300r
In a 125 sized chassis sure. Obviously, you're not clearing 60 foot doubles from the inside rut out of a corner but you will be able to make it over and up most things within reason. Think about the improvement in riding technique if you had to ride the same track or trail on a lower powered bike. Throttle hides a lot of deficiencies in riding technique. You could probably save seconds off your lap time just by the improvement in your corner speed.
Close other than the fact that that it’s over 280 pounds. All of the manufacturers play bikes are so heavy it’s embarrassing.
Cheap
Light
Strong
You can only pick 2
Agree with OP, there’s a hole in the market. The jump from a 230 to a 250F is pretty steep, my kids and GF aren’t ready for a race bike and never will be. The KLX wasn’t on my radar, I’ll look into them, although I’d still prefer air cooling. I’d prefer a carb too, but efi is probably mandatory to get CA green stickers. 230s make enough power for the kids, I just hate seeing them get beat up whenever we get into even mild choppy conditions. Super soft forks are a big part of the problem, but that’s easy to fix, going beyond that with better suspension and ergos is what an OEM could do way better than users.
I think a good $5-6k “serious play bike” would sell out. Needs a better name though.
It’s a niche market that maybe KTM should jump into? They’re the master of making the oddball bikes into something big..
Don't forget that even mid-'80s suspension technology is far more expensive than trail bike suspension. Plus, reviving old, discontinued parts might be less economical than you think. I like the idea of making pit bikes a little better, but not the idea of introducing a whole new category.
KTM could revive the Hodaka brand with an air cooled 250-300cc 4 stroke. PDS suspension, decent brakes and handling and a frame where swapping seats could make it lower/taller for various sizes of riders. Asian manufacturers to keep prices low. KTM engineering to keep quality good.
Seems easy from my BarcaLounger!
If a yz125 retails for $7k I don't see how you are going to make it any cheaper by keeping the same chassis and suspension and adding a heavier more expensive 4 stroke engine. I don't see the books but I bet a ttr230 engine costs about as much as a yz125 engine to produce.
Didn't even think about that one. Looking at it, it looks pretty close but I wonder about frame stiffness. The price is right.
Edit: Just read about the weight, YIKES. I'm out.
I don't have access to the books but I'm sure the 125 is very profitable and the 4 stroke is just an anvil of a reliable motor with cheap parts etc. nothing is cutting edge.
The motorcycle you are looking for is made by AJP. Beta makes the Xtrainer, KTM makes the freeride, Sherco/Scorpa make the longride. For my wife we buy a 250f and lower it, easy enough to do, and if expense is an issue plenty of used ones.
One bike that may be in that catagory that I neglected to mention is the Beta XTRAINER. It has a lower seat height and such. I was going to test ride one at aHare Scramble a couple months ago but never got the chance. It's a 2 stroke 300 but from what I hear the motor is very mellow. The fly in the ointment is that it's $8 grand.
If you are going fast enough to blast whoops offroad, then its time for a moto based bike. the CRF/TTR offerings are plenty, and to be honest, I think more people should be on them. Remember that there is a CRF250X, WR250F, Beta Xtrainer, KLX300, KTM Freeride and others that operate in that offroad space between 230 air cooled, and 125 moto based offroad
I agree that costs are too high
Pit Row
Besides my YZF and CRF250R, I have a Honda CRF250F. It’s my trail bike, play bike and something else to hang mods on bike. Brazilians make a ton of parts for Honda F’s. 250F’s suck suspension wise. I did Tuscany Racing dual chamber fork conversion and Tuscany Racing rear shock. Belparts exhaust, tuner and other bling. It’s fun on a simple MX track or trails. Corners like a bandit. Just north of 20 HP, but Honda gears them low. It’s pretty quick and hooks up good. Fun to ride. I call it my Brazilian Motocrosser. Guys in Brazil race heck out Honda 250F’s, that’s where they are made.
Everybody needs a fun bike.
I rode Xtrainer, kind of crude. Like I said, the AJPs look nice, you can get a nice new one for 6k or $6500.
I think McG is in the right path, I would love a "slower" trail bike that had decent suspension, at the right price point. The KLX230 is one of the funnest bikes ive ever ridden, if it had better suspension, sign me up for the perfect play bike
Eventually there is a good chance they will get there but it still makes me nervous to buy a Chinese bike where you can "Add to cart."
Back in like 06 people used to take RM85 front ends and bolt them to the front of drz125L's, and i always thought that would be a pretty fun bike to ride. However, you can't really beat a yz125 for what you're asking for.
Little different spin on this but I wish they'd just sell the 5 year old technology at a discount. Honda is kinda doing this but I wish they'd take it a step further.
Probably 1% of purchasers actually need all the latest and greatest technology like map switches and quick shift and whatever else.
If KTM sold a brand new bike that was the 2017 model for $3-4k less than the latest and greatest I'd be ALL OVER IT and so would many others.
wHaT yoURe dEScRibINg iS a sUzuKI
more seriously, im fully on-board with this idea also
I totally get that but is still a good way to get a new rider on a brand new bike to see if they even like it or a good play pit bike that isn't going to be hitting big jumps and going on mellow to intermediate trail rides.
Check out some of the new videos they have been putting out
People don't realize much of the cost of Austrian bikes is their level of support in racing. They have factory teams in every level and type of racing all the way up to MotoGP. They support racing far more than any other motorcycle maker, a huge investment.
Kind of surprised you are saying the Xtrainer is crude but suggesting the AJP. It's interesting because they say they use Brembos but no idea the quality of anything else and they don't mention weight. One of the big things I was looking at is Japanese reliability.
I'm really shocked that Suzuki didn't do something like this as it would sell a lot more bikes and possibly get some kids that loved them and generate brand loyalty.
Did anyone look at the left handlebar of the KTM MotoGP bike? Holy Crap, there was a lot going on.
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