What caused Roczen's crash?

GarySemics
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1/23/2017 9:11am
Man, that was such a hard crash that I felt it sitting in my chair! I'm surprised he only had injuries to his arm. I thought there were going to be broken ribs and a collarbone and shoulder issues. I know as a former motocross racer, right after a crash your brain begins to analyze what caused the crash. Here's my analogy. The take off jump had a soft bottom that created a sharper, shorter take-off point. Instead of the take-off point being at the top of the jump it was half-way up the jump. Ken didn't adjust his techniques for this fact. All of a sudden he was in a crash situation with no way out.
I hate to see that happen to any racer, especially when they are at the top of their game. Hope Ken makes a speedy recovery!
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Mr. Info
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1/23/2017 9:19am
Gary my thought was that on rebound from the compression the caught the kicker at the top and compressed part way again and then rebounded a 2nd time changing the bikes balance he had already adjusted to. Not sure if it's just a Honda issue since we have seen this happen twice with him. I did not see others have this issue but they only showed a few select riders.
RonJon
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1/23/2017 9:21am
Good insight. Ken wasn't the only one, I saw Davi have a scary moment at the same jump.
hoots3pak
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1/23/2017 9:23am
Thanks Gary Semics for an inside opinion from a true professional. Nice to hear.



Sometimes You Go Down........
Moto810
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1/23/2017 9:25am
My thoughts are very simple. Track was rutted in that area and might have had some kickers there as well. He was going very fast! Crash! He is one of, if not the most talented rider in the sport so he was pushing it to the limit and he found the limit. Get well soon young man!

The Shop

Tuzzo123
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1/23/2017 9:30am
100% agree, Marvin said he almost got kicked on the same line 2 times and he had to change lines and slow down and "Safe IT" through the section. Reed, Marv, Millsaps..........Roczen
TXDirt
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1/23/2017 9:40am
GarySemics wrote:
Man, that was such a hard crash that I felt it sitting in my chair! I'm surprised he only had injuries to his arm. I thought...
Man, that was such a hard crash that I felt it sitting in my chair! I'm surprised he only had injuries to his arm. I thought there were going to be broken ribs and a collarbone and shoulder issues. I know as a former motocross racer, right after a crash your brain begins to analyze what caused the crash. Here's my analogy. The take off jump had a soft bottom that created a sharper, shorter take-off point. Instead of the take-off point being at the top of the jump it was half-way up the jump. Ken didn't adjust his techniques for this fact. All of a sudden he was in a crash situation with no way out.
I hate to see that happen to any racer, especially when they are at the top of their game. Hope Ken makes a speedy recovery!
This was posted by ML512 in another thread which describes the crash pretty perfectly.

...if you watch from the side angle, he lands front tire down into the bottom of the transition (he misses the downslope of the landing) by the time the rear tire touches down, he's just entering the rut and has to compress the bike... This combined force presses the shock completely through the stroke as he tries to drive through the steep jump face... At this point, the shock is trying to release the stored energy through rebound action and reacts as he's popping off the jump face. The other thing is the way Roczen pushes through this rhythm. Even some of the top guys weren't comfortable in this section and would stand in a more stiff stance and just pop this triple, Ken was pushing the bike forward and through this face to stay low. The combination of the bike's reaction and him standing forward and pushing through the face causes a bit more severe reaction. In my opinion, comparing this to a similar situation I've had, when you blow the shock through the stroke like this and push through on the jump face, you don't notice the energy release as early because you're pushing the bike forward and that initial front dive feels like you caused it with your stance. By the time you realize the bike is also popping in that same way, you've actually assisted the energy transition instead of fighting it, and you're just too late to do anything about it. In thise case, there was enough energy transfer as he tries to pop off the bike, it throws his feet up and loses control in mid air.
jamma10
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1/23/2017 9:46am Edited Date/Time 1/23/2017 9:47am















kkawboy14
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1/23/2017 9:46am Edited Date/Time 1/23/2017 9:52am
All the upward forces were stronger than him and the forward forces! I didn't see a kicker at the top, it seemed like the whole face was a wall or kicker. I could be wrong tho.
philG
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1/23/2017 9:51am
I haven't rewatched it but i though he was doing the other rhymn down there on previous laps, so he missed the ruts. But this lap he came across a lapper and didnt hit it the same,will have a look.
JPT
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1/23/2017 9:52am
My first thought was how similar it was to his crash in the second moto last fall. Just a coincidence I suppose.
Roostermx58
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1/23/2017 10:01am
If there was a way to keep his body from continuing the upward motion that his bike pushed him, he would have been ok. From time to time, ive seen the riders lock their boots under their pegs which may have helped if he would have had enough time to do so.
jaredtebo17
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1/23/2017 10:02am
I watched it a bunch of times. I obviously don't have as much experience as Gary, but here is my take. The track was tough to make up time, you could make up .1 here or there and those two middle triples in those two rhythm lanes were spots to stay a little lower. With the ruts, you can't really scrub, so you try to soak up the face with your arms and shoulders. The bikes are setup so stiff in the forks. I don't think he only hit a kicker, I think he pushed into the face and when the forks rebounded him, he just got kicked off. His feet seemed to be off before the rear end kicked, I think the rear end came up because he was gripping really hard to keep his feet on. His body went much higher than his bike, just a kicker on the face wouldn't generate that much force I don't think. The pace is so fast and to search for tenths on a tough track is dangerous. Really feel bad for the guy, that was an extremely bad crash. Thankfully no neck or back injuries.
JB426
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1/23/2017 10:04am
Obviously this happened very fast but, in hindsight, does anyone think he could have pulled himself back onto the bike at all? May have still crashed but maybe the bike could have absorbed it a little? If you notice on the replay he got thrown up but still had his hands on the bars and then it looks like he made a decision to actually push the bike away with his hands to get it away from him. I'm still sick about this. Thoughts and prayers going out to Ken.
Kenny Lingus
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1/23/2017 10:05am
In situations like this, I thinks it's hard to point at any one thing that caused it. I would say that bottoming out or nearly in a rutty transition that had a kicker at the bottom was the main culprit.

Anybody that rides has been in a situation where your body or bike has this weird "inner momentum" that you just can't correct. It's like an invisible force trying to disconnect you from your bike. By the time you realize what is going on it's too late.

It makes me ponder if this is why American riders suspension is usually stiffer than what GP guys would use. Are riders that race SX setting there suspension up for worse case scenarios like this? So you can over jump something and still be able to do the next jump.
jamma10
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1/23/2017 10:14am
philG wrote:
I haven't rewatched it but i though he was doing the other rhymn down there on previous laps, so he missed the ruts. But this lap...
I haven't rewatched it but i though he was doing the other rhymn down there on previous laps, so he missed the ruts. But this lap he came across a lapper and didnt hit it the same,will have a look.
He actually did take the same line on the previous lap (I've just deleted the other screen grabs I took unfortunatley).

If anything he was more central when he approaches the lapper and he fades across to the left slightly, so I did wonder whether he was lined up perfectly straight upon landing/takeoff and whether that may played a part. You cant really tell from the video as it cuts away to a different angle.
jamma10
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1/23/2017 10:18am
JB426 wrote:
Obviously this happened very fast but, in hindsight, does anyone think he could have pulled himself back onto the bike at all? May have still crashed...
Obviously this happened very fast but, in hindsight, does anyone think he could have pulled himself back onto the bike at all? May have still crashed but maybe the bike could have absorbed it a little? If you notice on the replay he got thrown up but still had his hands on the bars and then it looks like he made a decision to actually push the bike away with his hands to get it away from him. I'm still sick about this. Thoughts and prayers going out to Ken.
I think these guys are accutely aware of when they think they can save something and when can't.

Look at Musquin last week, an average rider would probably have been lying flat on their back but Musquin was able to save it somehow.
akillerwombat
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1/23/2017 10:21am
Marvin and Dungy talked about it in the press conference, "rain has to go somewhere.... it settled between the transitions... that caused gnarly cupping at the base of a lot of the transitions".
Superdave19
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1/23/2017 10:35am Edited Date/Time 1/23/2017 10:36am
He did take the same line as the lap before, but, several other rider likely hit that same line after Ken did in between his laps. During the time between, it created a deeper bottom transition (G-Out)

..K-Roc's next lap = End Game. People that blame the bike are full of sh*t. Just a very, very unfortunate situation.
Such a Bummer. As Shorty posted, Ken's best days are coming... Bright, Bright future for this kid.
Sully22
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1/23/2017 10:43am Edited Date/Time 1/23/2017 10:47am
After a couple days now of analyzing it and reading the comments, to me it seemed sorta like the dynamics of a double bounce on a trampoline, with Kroc being the double bounce guy and the bike being the one that engineers the bounce and launching him into the the air, while the bike doesn't get the air and nose dives into the jump. You can see the bike is fully compressed on the face of the jump, he lands too far off the jump before and was carrying speed, causing the rebound stroke to happen later than previous laps, launching him.
gnarwhip
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1/23/2017 10:55am Edited Date/Time 1/23/2017 10:56am
He was going too fast for the muddy, kickered jump conditions. Weight was too far forward.
Zaugg
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1/23/2017 12:21pm Edited Date/Time 1/23/2017 12:22pm
Something to add and consider...that part of the track wasn't as soft as Jeff Emig suggested. I was on the track all day and the transitions in between this rhythm section was consistent with the take-off albeit some of the take-offs did have kickers.

I believe with Kenny, it was a combination of a couple things. Kenny typically runs a softer set up with a little more rebound in the back. By not "hitting his mark", landing a little front wheel heavy, this caused the rear to load up and produce the same result as his crash at MEC.

Also, if you notice, he ejected really early. The bike was still somewhat horizontal. Not sure if the injury would be more, the same, or less extensive but ejecting from the bike definitely contributed to his point of impact which ended his season.

Finally, we've been hearing from top riders about how they're not stoked on the tracks/ construction. Granted, Dirt Wurx has been doing a good job of saving the track from inclement weather, but the execution of their construction and design has caused some very "notchy" features. Jeremy complained about it. Grant complained about it...and not about this track mind you. I can't help but think that not having a smoother transition in between features instead of these "kinked" transitions would alleviate these types of incidents or at least reduce them. Dirt Wurx needs to step up their game. I bet you a dime to a dollar you'll see the same notchy/ kinked transitions in the rhythm lanes as the past three rounds.

mauidex
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1/23/2017 12:28pm
Dungey leading WinkWink
PTECH
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1/23/2017 12:39pm
Been reading a lot of these threads and I cant understand people saying that this crash was the same as his monster cup crash. Go back and rewatch that crash at Monster cup. They're not the same at all.
Phillip_Lamb
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1/23/2017 12:46pm
GarySemics wrote:
Man, that was such a hard crash that I felt it sitting in my chair! I'm surprised he only had injuries to his arm. I thought...
Man, that was such a hard crash that I felt it sitting in my chair! I'm surprised he only had injuries to his arm. I thought there were going to be broken ribs and a collarbone and shoulder issues. I know as a former motocross racer, right after a crash your brain begins to analyze what caused the crash. Here's my analogy. The take off jump had a soft bottom that created a sharper, shorter take-off point. Instead of the take-off point being at the top of the jump it was half-way up the jump. Ken didn't adjust his techniques for this fact. All of a sudden he was in a crash situation with no way out.
I hate to see that happen to any racer, especially when they are at the top of their game. Hope Ken makes a speedy recovery!
TXDirt wrote:
This was posted by ML512 in another thread which describes the crash pretty perfectly. [i]...if you watch from the side angle, he lands front tire down...
This was posted by ML512 in another thread which describes the crash pretty perfectly.

...if you watch from the side angle, he lands front tire down into the bottom of the transition (he misses the downslope of the landing) by the time the rear tire touches down, he's just entering the rut and has to compress the bike... This combined force presses the shock completely through the stroke as he tries to drive through the steep jump face... At this point, the shock is trying to release the stored energy through rebound action and reacts as he's popping off the jump face. The other thing is the way Roczen pushes through this rhythm. Even some of the top guys weren't comfortable in this section and would stand in a more stiff stance and just pop this triple, Ken was pushing the bike forward and through this face to stay low. The combination of the bike's reaction and him standing forward and pushing through the face causes a bit more severe reaction. In my opinion, comparing this to a similar situation I've had, when you blow the shock through the stroke like this and push through on the jump face, you don't notice the energy release as early because you're pushing the bike forward and that initial front dive feels like you caused it with your stance. By the time you realize the bike is also popping in that same way, you've actually assisted the energy transition instead of fighting it, and you're just too late to do anything about it. In thise case, there was enough energy transfer as he tries to pop off the bike, it throws his feet up and loses control in mid air.
its a good analysis. I noticed how he was riding forward,

NOT UNLIKE a certain James stewart. Many of his crashes were over the front end of the bike because he rode so far forward.

also i read somewhere Kroc likes to run only a little amount of rebound in the shock so in this situation it would've kicked late
hillbilly
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1/23/2017 1:02pm
Needed a stiffer spring . You gotta plan for the unplanned when you need that last 2 inches to save you .
gt80rider
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1/23/2017 1:06pm
If there was a way to keep his body from continuing the upward motion that his bike pushed him, he would have been ok. From time...
If there was a way to keep his body from continuing the upward motion that his bike pushed him, he would have been ok. From time to time, ive seen the riders lock their boots under their pegs which may have helped if he would have had enough time to do so.
I ride with my right foot under the brake pedal at times to help stay glued to the bike.... Makes me wonder if anyone has tried having a pair of "pegs" mounted at the top of the cases that a rider can get his feet under to help in this instance or to purposely pull up on the bike to help in certain situations...
jj welks
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1/23/2017 1:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/23/2017 1:10pm
Hope Kroc heals quick! Hope somebody else reaches the 1 spot other than Dungey from this point on in the series.

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