Off season pondering regarding qualifying by laptimes vs qualifying races.

sumdood
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sumdood
Does qualifying by lap times make sense on a track that changes every lap ? How can you compare a guys time on a butter smooth track in the first few timed sessions to a guys time in a later session when the track is beat up and completely different ? Is that fair ? There's probably a "Perfect" time to qualify ? When a couple lines are burned in, but the tracks not too beat up yet ? Who gets that time slot ? Sure seems like apples and oranges.
Comparing lap times on an asphalt track makes sense, sure there will be some inconsistencies with track temps and humidity and wind I guess. But those would be minimal compared to what happens on a motocross or supercross track. Especially with some guys cruising and possibly fucking up their hot lap anyway. Am I the only one that wishes they'd turn back the clock and have day time qualifiers ? Fuck burning a "Hot Lap" where some guys are cruising and some guys are trying to go fast etc.
Lets drop the gate and have races. What do you think ?

Qualify by lap times or races ?

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JOE_SPROCKETS#1 9/21/2021 3:43pm
9/21/2021 3:43pm Edited Date/Time 9/21/2021 3:44pm
I voted for more races but at the end of the day gate pick doesn’t seem like a big deal at most races. I always liked guys like Purcell laying a heater lap late in qualifying though.
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CPR
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CPR 9/21/2021 4:28pm
9/21/2021 4:28pm
So the qualifying race isn’t a race? How do you pick the gates for the qualifying?….

Qualifying times may not be perfect, but all the guys in the same class are on the same track at the same time, so it works.
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Falcon
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Falcon 9/21/2021 4:47pm
9/21/2021 4:47pm
^All the guys in the same class are NOT on the track at the same time. There are "A" and "B" qualifying sessions. Basically, the guys with factory rides get the track in better condition.

If they do qualifying laps, it should be one lap, measured after a one-hour open practice session. You get one chance at your best time, as measured from the 1st trap to the finish line, then GTFO the track. The starter will wave riders off in 15-second intervals. 1st come, 1st serve, or determined by the starting official.
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CPR
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CPR 9/21/2021 7:24pm
9/21/2021 7:24pm
Falcon wrote:
^All the guys in the same class are NOT on the track at the same time. There are "A" and "B" qualifying sessions. Basically, the guys...
^All the guys in the same class are NOT on the track at the same time. There are "A" and "B" qualifying sessions. Basically, the guys with factory rides get the track in better condition.

If they do qualifying laps, it should be one lap, measured after a one-hour open practice session. You get one chance at your best time, as measured from the 1st trap to the finish line, then GTFO the track. The starter will wave riders off in 15-second intervals. 1st come, 1st serve, or determined by the starting official.
Thought A & B were sorted by previous results, not what team you’re on? Doesn’t B go first? I.e. track is smoother?
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loftyair
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loftyair 9/21/2021 8:36pm
9/21/2021 8:36pm
Problem with 1 hot lap is some are better at the heater than others. While 35min is for real men only. You know of that guy who qualifies well, then barely gets that top ten. If it wasn't for the factory bike, and actually great on starts, would be a 15th place dude.
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8tensolutions
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8tensolutions 9/21/2021 9:14pm
9/21/2021 9:14pm Edited Date/Time 9/21/2021 9:14pm
I vote for a superpole format.....Riders going out 30 seconds apart with 3 laps to nail a fast one, We would be able to see everyone get after it and there wouldn't be traffic issues.
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blockhead17 9/21/2021 10:15pm
9/21/2021 10:15pm
That just made me think of 05 when Stew had to ride unseeded practice for SX and they took him out because he was going to kill people he was going so much faster..
Haha sorry a little off topic, but gotta love a stew story 😊
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 9/21/2021 10:26pm
9/21/2021 10:26pm
Falcon wrote:
^All the guys in the same class are NOT on the track at the same time. There are "A" and "B" qualifying sessions. Basically, the guys...
^All the guys in the same class are NOT on the track at the same time. There are "A" and "B" qualifying sessions. Basically, the guys with factory rides get the track in better condition.

If they do qualifying laps, it should be one lap, measured after a one-hour open practice session. You get one chance at your best time, as measured from the 1st trap to the finish line, then GTFO the track. The starter will wave riders off in 15-second intervals. 1st come, 1st serve, or determined by the starting official.
CPR wrote:
Thought A & B were sorted by previous results, not what team you’re on? Doesn’t B go first? I.e. track is smoother?
It all depends on the track that day. Sometimes the 1st practice is the fastest and sometimes it’s 3 foot deep out there and slower. I think they change up who goes first between A and B practice.
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 9/21/2021 10:32pm
9/21/2021 10:32pm
For the guys that are just trying to make the show. Having the “good” practice can be the difference between making motos or going home.
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sumdood
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sumdood 9/22/2021 1:42am
9/22/2021 1:42am Edited Date/Time 9/22/2021 7:47am
I don’t remember when it changed to qualifying by lap times ? But I do remember when you’d go to Supercross early and they’d be having races all day with “X” amount of guys moving straight into the night program, “X” amount of guys going into another race for another try etc. I don’t remember the exact format, but to be one of the (40 ?) guys to get into the night program you had to race. No one was “automatically” in the night show, no matter where they were in points or where they finished last week. Each week every guy had to race to get in the night show. I thought it was cool because if a couple of the heavy hitters had a bad qualifying race it was conceivable a triple digit newer guy could go straight into the night show even though it might not be one of the fastest guys. I remember back when it changed one of the arguments for changing it was there would be less chance of lappers because a slower guy couldn’t “luck” his way into the night show, plus a top ten guy could have some bad luck and not be automatically seeded into the evening program. “What if the points leader got a flat tire in his first qualifying race and taken out by some brand new guy in his second race, he’d be out of the night show” The change was supposed to make for better racing, and it very well probably has, but it was cool that Joe Nobody had more of a chance to get in the night show. Plus from a fan perspective, we got to see gate drops and real racing all day long. Not “Practice” with guys trying to do one hot lap without some guy getting in their way. As a fan I don’t give a shit who can throw down a hot lap, I want to see a gate drop, and a fight. But that’s just me. Obviously I’m in the minority but I still say comparing lap times on a track that changes every lap doesn’t make sense, it ain’t NASCAR or the Indy 500, the surface changes, Lap times from the first session vs lap times from the last session is apples and oranges.

Edit: Based on the latest poll results I’m not in the minority after all.
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philG
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philG 9/22/2021 4:11am
9/22/2021 4:11am
They should spilt the groups by ballot, and take the top20 from each group.. nobody else compares times from different groups. Same as using conbined times from first and second qualifying. Makes 2nd session meaningless if all the fast times are laid down in the first one.
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Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 9/22/2021 6:01am
9/22/2021 6:01am
Sandusky26 wrote:
For the guys that are just trying to make the show. Having the “good” practice can be the difference between making motos or going home.
I helped a guy out at Unadilla that has trouble qualifying out of timed qualifying. Had to go to the consi where he fortunately got a good start. If not, he would have been watching from the sidelines. Went on to score 26-26 moto finishes that day. These are the kind of guys who timed qualifying affects. The ones who regularly miss out on qualifying then beat another 15-20 guys when it's time for 30+2. Most don't care about these guys, but many do.
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garasaki
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garasaki 9/22/2021 6:09am
9/22/2021 6:09am
I was listening to a podcast (might have been a Pulp show) where several riders were describing the way that timed practice affects race day.

Prior to practice, track is heavily watered and ripped deeeeeeeeep.

Fast guys go out, cut in the fast line, create a rut. Any line that is not rutted, is slowwwww AF because it's ripped deep and muddy.

Fast guys go out, ride the rut, because putting a heater in is all that matters. Go fast in the fast line.

Track develops into a 1 lined track, with huge ruts - ie Rut-o-cross.

The riders were theorizing that if qualifying were races, rather than timed practice, the track would develop into a race friendly track with more options, rather than a slot car track with a single fast line.
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flarider
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flarider 9/22/2021 6:46am
9/22/2021 6:46am
My only issue is an open preference thing...big boy advantage

If I remember right, it goes 250 B-A to 450 A-B

They put the two A's back to back for teams (and a little for spectators) to make it easier and not have to go back and forth for some managers or OEM people (and media)

Putting the A guys before B seems wrong. The top guys have every possible advantage right down to the best hair and beard wranglers in the business.

While guys in B have far far lass and we're tossing them onto a totally trashed factory boy chew toy of a track and saying "You do better than them if you want to play."

Don't seem right

MxRewind
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MxRewind 9/22/2021 6:54am
9/22/2021 6:54am
Or a combined overall for qualifying would be good idea. 1 15min timed qualifier and 1 15min moto. so you have a blend of guys who can run a 1 lap heater but fade quick and guys who can hold on for a longer moto but not good at running a 1 lap heater.
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Steve125
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Steve125 9/22/2021 7:46am
9/22/2021 7:46am
Qualifying races would be cool. As long as everyone has to qualify. I say this because back in the way back day, racers in the top 10 in points didn't have to go out and qualify. It kept them and their 1 off Worksbike fresh for race time. (I'm talking 78-80 timeframe. Not sure when things changed.
kb228
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kb228 9/22/2021 8:46am
9/22/2021 8:46am
All of the entries should be put on paper and folded and put into a hat and drawn at random
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sumdood
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sumdood 9/22/2021 8:57am
9/22/2021 8:57am
garasaki wrote:
I was listening to a podcast (might have been a Pulp show) where several riders were describing the way that timed practice affects race day. Prior...
I was listening to a podcast (might have been a Pulp show) where several riders were describing the way that timed practice affects race day.

Prior to practice, track is heavily watered and ripped deeeeeeeeep.

Fast guys go out, cut in the fast line, create a rut. Any line that is not rutted, is slowwwww AF because it's ripped deep and muddy.

Fast guys go out, ride the rut, because putting a heater in is all that matters. Go fast in the fast line.

Track develops into a 1 lined track, with huge ruts - ie Rut-o-cross.

The riders were theorizing that if qualifying were races, rather than timed practice, the track would develop into a race friendly track with more options, rather than a slot car track with a single fast line.
That's a pretty valid point I didn't even think about and straight from the racers themselves, not some dude on the internets opinion. That reason alone is worth looking at re-thinking how the current format is run.

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lostboy819
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lostboy819 9/22/2021 11:16am
9/22/2021 11:16am
Or, just keep doing it the way it is now because it works great.Wink
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WoodsRacer
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WoodsRacer 9/22/2021 1:18pm
9/22/2021 1:18pm
kb228 wrote:
All of the entries should be put on paper and folded and put into a hat and drawn at random
My thought as well. Never understood why being faster meant you get a better gate pick. I would prefer they were random each time.

Keep the practices as just that, practice. Let the guys get a better feel for the track, set up some better outside lines, and not burn in 1 heater line that hurts the track overall come real race time.
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 9/22/2021 3:13pm
9/22/2021 3:13pm
Sandusky26 wrote:
For the guys that are just trying to make the show. Having the “good” practice can be the difference between making motos or going home.
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
I helped a guy out at Unadilla that has trouble qualifying out of timed qualifying. Had to go to the consi where he fortunately got a...
I helped a guy out at Unadilla that has trouble qualifying out of timed qualifying. Had to go to the consi where he fortunately got a good start. If not, he would have been watching from the sidelines. Went on to score 26-26 moto finishes that day. These are the kind of guys who timed qualifying affects. The ones who regularly miss out on qualifying then beat another 15-20 guys when it's time for 30+2. Most don't care about these guys, but many do.
I wish there was a way to make it so the A and B practices don’t have to qualify against each other.
Johnny Ringo
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Johnny Ringo 9/22/2021 3:21pm
9/22/2021 3:21pm
As a fan I personally liked the Saturday seeded practice, and qualifying. The qualifying on Sunday morning was always great too, a lot more racing in the day.

I liked making a weekend out of the national, but I get that it’s really tough on the teams and racers to be gone that long.

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