Lappers

txmxer
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Edited Date/Time 1/26/2012 12:26pm
Anyone else read Brooks on lappers?


LB on lappers, MXA
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jtomasik
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2/9/2009 10:26am
Oh, thought you were asking for the lappers to post.


Present.
-eagle-
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2/9/2009 10:30am
I was more into his point of everyone dragging their feet than the topic itself.
He said he was trying to make this happen last year and still nothing.
Lappers shouldn't be able to make passes when they are getting lapped though.
Larry
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2/9/2009 10:30am
jtomasik wrote:
Oh, thought you were asking for the lappers to post.


Present.
x1
Trip
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2/9/2009 10:35am
Sounds like he is crying again. Easy to have that point, when you have had the two fastest riders over the last few years.
Lapped traffic is always going to be a poblem, just deal with it. Hell, his guy won and he complains.
Does he really think anything will change if the make a rule about not passing while being shown the blue flag? I don't think so.

The Shop

txmxer
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2/9/2009 10:42am
Trip wrote:
Sounds like he is crying again. Easy to have that point, when you have had the two fastest riders over the last few years. Lapped traffic...
Sounds like he is crying again. Easy to have that point, when you have had the two fastest riders over the last few years.
Lapped traffic is always going to be a poblem, just deal with it. Hell, his guy won and he complains.
Does he really think anything will change if the make a rule about not passing while being shown the blue flag? I don't think so.
pretty arbitrary until they start employing professional flagging staff don't you think?
Larry
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2/9/2009 10:48am
Tell the other racers they can't race? Lapped riders are part of the game.
Trip
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2/9/2009 10:50am
txmxer wrote:
pretty arbitrary until they start employing professional flagging staff don't you think?
They don't just let anyone throw the blue flag.. I mean you have to have one of the fancy blue AMA jackets and a head set.

I have been lapped by all the top guys on the practice tracks at one time or another. Not one time have I ever heard one of them thank me on the podium. If it wasn't for us slow lappers at practice days, these guys wouldn't know how to pass a lapper. If they can get by my outta control ass, getting by other professionals really doesn't seem like a problem to me.

LarryB
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2/9/2009 10:57am
The first thing everyone says is that I'm crying, but I've been saying this for years and if you speak to a top rider that does lap riders during races, he will say "it would be safer if a rider would just hold his line", but when their trying to pass another rider, how can they hold their line. I'm not crying, I just think things should be done for Safety and making racing safer.

Some of you have never raced a motorcycle and some of you are great motorcycle riders, but the only example I can use it when your driving on the freeway and your maybe driving a little faster than the flow of traffic and another driver pulls into your lane and then drives side by side with another car. The guy who's your there, but he doesn't give a crap because he's more interested in passing the other guy.

Just trying to help the sport.

I see the people on MotoTalk are ripping me apart, that's awesome. Read some of the stuff they say, it's like they didn't even read the Article. All i'm really asking to change is that the lapped riders don't pass while under the Blue flag.
jtomasik
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2/9/2009 10:57am
It's racing. Harden the fuck up.
LarryB
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2/9/2009 11:08am
Trip wrote:
Sounds like he is crying again. Easy to have that point, when you have had the two fastest riders over the last few years. Lapped traffic...
Sounds like he is crying again. Easy to have that point, when you have had the two fastest riders over the last few years.
Lapped traffic is always going to be a poblem, just deal with it. Hell, his guy won and he complains.
Does he really think anything will change if the make a rule about not passing while being shown the blue flag? I don't think so.
txmxer wrote:
pretty arbitrary until they start employing professional flagging staff don't you think?
This has been an issue going back many years. I've been lucky enough to have had good riders and maybe that's why I see the problem more than others, but when James Stewart was over at Kawasaki, I remember Mike Fisher freaking out at the AMA and asking them to do something about the lapped riders. So instead of me going to the AMA and just yelling at them, I have come up with an idea. Like I said, I'm not just sitting here writing some long rant of what's bad, I'm also writing idea's on how to fix them. Big difference.

And Yes, I think things will change if a rider knows that he will not be passed if he slowed down for the Blue flag. Actually he would be comfortable holding his line and letting the leaders by if he knew the guy right behind him wasn't going to pin it right by him as soon as he slowed down. "NO PASSING UNDER THE BLUE FLAG"!!!
JoeBraxton
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2/9/2009 11:12am
In 1988 when I first started racing 125's during a practice Brooks came up on me and yelled at me to "get the F out of the way" and proceeded to roost the shit out of me in the next corner. It hurt like hell and I kind of felt like crying but, I learned to hold my line and not mess with the faster guys out there. Larry knows how to race. There is such a huge difference between us weekend racers and the pros. I can't believe how many people on here talk about him like he is a wuss or something. The guy is still so fast on a bike it's not even funny. I don't see how people can't respect that.
LarryB
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2/9/2009 11:21am
Scott,

You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the rest of the field to slow down too. Dang it, I don't think any of them will listen to me.

I agree lappers have been around since racing around a circle started, but that doesn't mean it needs to continue to be a problem. We are older and smarter and we can come up with idea's that will bring us out of the stone age and in to the computer age. Open our minds and lets make changes that help our sport. This is a huge problem that our sport has had, everyone thinks that since that's the why it's been, then that's the way it needs to stay. This is 2009, Wow isn't that crazy! We can figure things out that can help our sport and change is not bad.
Ozzy
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2/9/2009 11:22am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:24pm
Some say I'm the king at speaking up, &
whether that helps or hurts me, I'm with
him here the others 100%.
And he's correct in saying all he said.
Look bashing the AMA doesn't help anyone,
yet it really is a "slow train".
"Nascar" seems to wipe their nose as soon
as it's running, yet the AMA will have the
"snott" all over themselves. Sorry, but
that's just how it seems to be regardless
of who's driving the bus.
Maybe more flags are needed. Maybe some
kind of "passing/lapping" lane made on each
side where possible. It could be 1 line, as it
gets that way at times anyway. But to do nothing,
is what it is, & yeah it's frustrating.Shoot,I
was even up for something there recently.
It required a "full time " effort to do the job
correctly & to be established as 100% serious,
yet they weren't on the same page. To be
professional, the commitment to be such has to
be in place, otherwise it's a joke, & yet
for yrs. the comments aren't at me.
"Change is good, ideas too! without trying
how does 1 improve? How? Certainly not
by being idle"........
They say they're about change & improving,
(what little they have left)lets see it.
Dave O.Wink

oldx
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2/9/2009 11:26am
LarryB wrote:
Scott, You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the...
Scott,

You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the rest of the field to slow down too. Dang it, I don't think any of them will listen to me.

I agree lappers have been around since racing around a circle started, but that doesn't mean it needs to continue to be a problem. We are older and smarter and we can come up with idea's that will bring us out of the stone age and in to the computer age. Open our minds and lets make changes that help our sport. This is a huge problem that our sport has had, everyone thinks that since that's the why it's been, then that's the way it needs to stay. This is 2009, Wow isn't that crazy! We can figure things out that can help our sport and change is not bad.
Yes you are so right. Let's really help the sport and do away with those blue flag waving idiot's.
zookrider62!
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2/9/2009 11:28am
Larry is 100% correct on this matter, except for docking a lap. maybe 2 positions, but a lap doesnt really make sense
2/9/2009 11:28am
Your right Larry. I have been a lapper and a leader doing the lapping..If your getting lapped, and see the blue flag, your attention should be brought behind yourself and not in front(other than keeping an eye on where your going obviously). No passing or gaining ground should happen..I'd go as far as almost telling the riders (at the drivers meeting) to pull right over, especially if they're not racing for position, and in a safe manner, obvious(again).

These guys are all professionals and know there surroundings well. Seems there shouldn't be a problem with knowing or hearing Bubba come up from behind you, the guy is pinned everywhere!
raddad
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2/9/2009 11:29am
Larry is NOT saying that lappers are not part of the sport, he is saying that there could be rules in place to make it safer for the passer and the passee.. I am one of those that think he has earned more respect than some of you give him. When a person, any person has an opinion or an idea about the safety of riders, that person is not crying! WTF is up with you guys anyway?
LarryB
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2/9/2009 11:29am
LarryB wrote:
Scott, You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the...
Scott,

You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the rest of the field to slow down too. Dang it, I don't think any of them will listen to me.

I agree lappers have been around since racing around a circle started, but that doesn't mean it needs to continue to be a problem. We are older and smarter and we can come up with idea's that will bring us out of the stone age and in to the computer age. Open our minds and lets make changes that help our sport. This is a huge problem that our sport has had, everyone thinks that since that's the why it's been, then that's the way it needs to stay. This is 2009, Wow isn't that crazy! We can figure things out that can help our sport and change is not bad.
oldx wrote:
Yes you are so right. Let's really help the sport and do away with those blue flag waving idiot's.
One in every crowd
LarryB
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2/9/2009 11:32am
Larry is 100% correct on this matter, except for docking a lap. maybe 2 positions, but a lap doesnt really make sense
Yea, I was just throwing something out there. There needs to be a penalty so the riders listen. Something and thanks for pointing that out.
teggers
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2/9/2009 11:39am
At least half of all my injuries have come from lappers. Dangerous part of racing and someone eventually is gonna get hurt for no reason. Making more rules might help, but I hate more rules on a subjective decision.

It almost needs to be handled privately....hehe.
rc4187
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2/9/2009 11:41am
i respectfully disagree with the idea of docking them... it's a race.. they only have 20 laps to get as far up as they can... driving on a freeway is not a race. Stewart was very close to lapping tedesco and milsaps... and they were battling for a podium... i say leave it how it is.. last thing the ama needs is another rule to confuse them and screw up.
Trip
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2/9/2009 11:42am
LarryB wrote:
Scott, You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the...
Scott,

You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the rest of the field to slow down too. Dang it, I don't think any of them will listen to me.

I agree lappers have been around since racing around a circle started, but that doesn't mean it needs to continue to be a problem. We are older and smarter and we can come up with idea's that will bring us out of the stone age and in to the computer age. Open our minds and lets make changes that help our sport. This is a huge problem that our sport has had, everyone thinks that since that's the why it's been, then that's the way it needs to stay. This is 2009, Wow isn't that crazy! We can figure things out that can help our sport and change is not bad.
I seriously think the AMA has more to worry about, than two guys lapping the field.. Qualifying system comes to mind..


I see your looking out for your guy, thats your job, and you are doing something right with it. Looking at it from the other side, do racers just quit racing when they get the blue flag?? Is that the idea?? Make it easy for your guy to get by. You have two guys, say in 10th racing for posistion, the leader comes by and they are supposed to just quit racing till he goes by? Come on, thats's not racing.

It's cool you post on the message boards, knowing your most likely going to take a beating. Just seems you never post here unless you have a problem, thats why it comes off as crying. Maybe if we heard from you a lil more often, it wouldn't seem that way.
Bret
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2/9/2009 11:43am
I think that for SX, if a rider is one turn away from being lapped, he should be waved off at a designated "lapped rider" exit. I'm serious.
SEEMEFIRST
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2/9/2009 11:45am
Bret wrote:
I think that for SX, if a rider is one turn away from being lapped, he should be waved off at a designated "lapped rider" exit...
I think that for SX, if a rider is one turn away from being lapped, he should be waved off at a designated "lapped rider" exit. I'm serious.
That'll keep the sponsors happy.
jndmx
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2/9/2009 11:46am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:24pm
Good stuff LarryB
You can always be counted on to say what you think.
I'm sure you'll be punished accordingly...lol.

I don't know that there will be a lot of aggreement with you but the point is a valid one.
You don't have to stop racing but it is unfair for a lapped rider to try and use the Blue flag as an advantage.

I think RonRon made a similiar point in the thread about the Yellow flags.
One rider will be taking heed of the situation and another rider will ignore the caution to make a pass.
LarryB
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2/9/2009 11:55am
LarryB wrote:
Scott, You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the...
Scott,

You know I can't ask James to slow down, but it would make thing easier. But that would mean I would need to ask the rest of the field to slow down too. Dang it, I don't think any of them will listen to me.

I agree lappers have been around since racing around a circle started, but that doesn't mean it needs to continue to be a problem. We are older and smarter and we can come up with idea's that will bring us out of the stone age and in to the computer age. Open our minds and lets make changes that help our sport. This is a huge problem that our sport has had, everyone thinks that since that's the why it's been, then that's the way it needs to stay. This is 2009, Wow isn't that crazy! We can figure things out that can help our sport and change is not bad.
Trip wrote:
I seriously think the AMA has more to worry about, than two guys lapping the field.. Qualifying system comes to mind.. I see your looking out...
I seriously think the AMA has more to worry about, than two guys lapping the field.. Qualifying system comes to mind..


I see your looking out for your guy, thats your job, and you are doing something right with it. Looking at it from the other side, do racers just quit racing when they get the blue flag?? Is that the idea?? Make it easy for your guy to get by. You have two guys, say in 10th racing for posistion, the leader comes by and they are supposed to just quit racing till he goes by? Come on, thats's not racing.

It's cool you post on the message boards, knowing your most likely going to take a beating. Just seems you never post here unless you have a problem, thats why it comes off as crying. Maybe if we heard from you a lil more often, it wouldn't seem that way.
The AMA has many problem and this is just one of them.

No, I wasn't saying the lapped rider should stop racing, just don't pass while under the Blue flag. Once a rider gets the Blue flag, this could only be for 10 seconds or so and then he can go right back to racing. Just don't pass while under the Blue flag is all I'm asking, simple.

Yes, I know I'm going to take a beating. I'm hoping you guys will be mature and just speak to me and not slam me for no reason or just because I work with a certain rider.

And no I don't come on here when I have a problem, but I do pop up when I feel I need to explain something that someone has taken something I've said way out of text or to protect myself. So it might look like I start trouble, but it's only because I'm reading what people are saying and I need to chime in. If everything is going smooth and people understand what I had said, I just lay low.
-eagle-
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2/9/2009 12:00pm
I really liked the (runny nose/snot)-( ama/nascar) analogy.
E-man811
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2/9/2009 12:02pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:24pm
I'm not instigating, but I have a few questions that would seem to me to make this issue very difficult to solve.


I paragraph 8, Larry outlines his proposal for what the rules should be.


Here are my questions.


Assuming that "under the authority of the blue flag" begins when it's waved to a slower rider.... When does it end? Is there an "OK, you can race now" flag?


How does the slower rider know how many faster riders are about to pass him? Or does this not matter once the lead rider has passed?


What if there were multiple riders coming in a freight train? What if they were all coming but were .5 seconds apart? 1 second apart? 5 seconds apart? Who determines how much space between faster riders is enough to resume racing?


Once shown the blue flag, is the race essentially over for that rider since there are likely more of the faster riders coming?


What if the rider about to be lapped is James , because he fell and after 1 full minute of kicking his bike he just moving again and not yet up to the speed his going to reach while on his tear to salvage his race? What if it was Chad, RV, or anyone else?


The blue flag system is not perfect. It's more a "the leaders are coming, do the best that you can to not get in the way" flag rather than a "roll out the red carpet" flag.


Larry, I like that you are focusing on how to deal with the few instances where lappers do get in the way instead of more rules. But, your position on the issue is not reasonable. You said that once the lead rider has passed the rider or group of riders they can resume racing. You asked "isn't that logical?" I don't know. Is the rule written that the slower riders need only stay out of the way of the LEAD rider as you keep referencing?

I don't know the letter of the rule.


If the rule does speak only to making way for the LEAD rider, ask yourself how you would feel about the rule if your rider was always the second one coming up on the slower rider or packs of riders. "Hey now that Chad or X has passed us we can get back to dicing and mixing it up and get in the way of James or whoever is coming through next."


Ian




On Edit: some of my questions were already answered in your most recent posts
jt $
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2/9/2009 12:19pm
I have been lapped many times over the years and I have definitely been in a position where if I slowed any, I would lose a spot. I do think that if I knew for certain that I wouldnt be passed while letting the leaders by, it would improve the situation. No one wants to impact the result of the race, we are just trying to race amongst ourselves. I dont think we can be faulted for racing for position when the leaders come by, but if that rule was placed into effect I think it would let us make more room for them.
LarryB
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2/9/2009 12:22pm
txmxer wrote:
Anyone else read Brooks on lappers?


LB on lappers, MXA
Yes, there are things that need to be figured out. My thinking is when the lead rider passes, but like anything there will be loop holes. Nothing is perfect, but what we have now really doesn't work or should I say causes danger and that's what I'm trying to improve.

Thanks for your in put.

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