Factory KTM question/opinion

hartebreak
Posts
2548
Joined
9/16/2009
Location
Portland, OR US
Fantasy
213th
Edited Date/Time 3/4/2014 8:18am
It's no secret that Decoster has brought KTM to an entirely new level here in the states. The bikes are light years better than they were and are now a legit member of the "big 5". Decoster is not going to be around for too much longer (3-5 years maybe). Has he and KTM built the brand enough so that when he does leave will the team still be as good as it is and attract top tier guys or will it slip back into a 2nd tier team like the mid to late 2000's post Larry Brooks era? I know he hasn't single handedly made the team what it is, but let's face it, without him, Dungey, Roczen, and Musquin would be on different colors right now.

Opinions?
|
ATKpilot99
Posts
10187
Joined
4/13/2010
Location
Lake Geneva, WI US
3/2/2014 4:39pm
I think they'll be fine. Everts' influence started them on the right track before DeCoster even got there and I'm sure he'll be around awhile. I'm not sure he'd want to take the place of DeCoster but they'll find a suitable replacement and keep the ball rolling.
TeamGreen
Posts
31746
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
3/2/2014 4:55pm
When the '15 KTM450 SXF get's here...I expect the conversation to be about "Is KTM simply the Best?"

Right now, I'm riding a '13.5/14 SXF and I can honestly say that it IS the "Better Bike" for the masses; HOWEVER, I'd have to call the KXF the "Better Pro-Bike" for Supercross and the KTM is it's Equal for "Outdoors"...I've been riding them both, back to back: The KXF simply SHREDS and it is SOooooo easy to make it FEEL & HANDLE Really "Light". The SXF is simply more Forgiving and Truly comes with SUPERIOR "hardware" for the long-run. If you can't get the SXF to "Hold a Line"? You should quit and take-up Golf. Forks go to the KTM, Shock goes to the Kawi.

As to Who's Responsible for What?

Obviously Roger has made a Huge Contribution; but, so have a few other Belgians, Carlos, AC, a certain Dutch kid...and countless off-road riders including Taddy and Kurt.

Me? I'm going to ride some Orange and White bikes for a while: I like and APPRECIATE that they're doing.

Signed,

Stoked to be ridin' at 50.
FreshTopEnd
Posts
12492
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA US
Fantasy
4765th
3/2/2014 5:03pm
Pit Beirer is a racer, and with Everts' input. RD is an icon, but I suspect they are at a point, and maybe already were, where the approach is the culture, not just RD.
hartebreak
Posts
2548
Joined
9/16/2009
Location
Portland, OR US
Fantasy
213th
3/2/2014 5:18pm
There definitely seems to be a huge difference in the way KTM is operating vs the other 4. At KTM, it seems like the race team is saying "here is what we need in a bike, please build it like this". The Japanese brands are like: "here is the bike, try and make it work for you and don't bother us".

The Shop

3/2/2014 5:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/2/2014 5:32pm
Im just wondering if ktm will eventually goto an aluminum frame like the japs
ATKpilot99
Posts
10187
Joined
4/13/2010
Location
Lake Geneva, WI US
3/2/2014 5:32pm
Jbrandmx85 wrote:
Im just wondering if ktm will eventually goto an aluminum frame like the japs
No reason to.
TeamGreen
Posts
31746
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
3/2/2014 5:33pm
Jbrandmx85 wrote:
Im just wondering if ktm will eventually goto an aluminum frame like the japs
Nope
3/2/2014 5:35pm
Jbrandmx85 wrote:
Im just wondering if ktm will eventually goto an aluminum frame like the japs
God I hope not! There is no reason to build an MX bike frame out of aluminum. Steel is better in every way with the possible exception of corrosion resistance.
Tim507
Posts
3260
Joined
6/8/2010
Location
Oregon City, OR US
3/2/2014 5:46pm
I've been riding KTM's for many years - had a 2012.5 Dungey and really enjoyed it. I now have a 2012 KTM 500 and a 2013 300 XC-W both awesome bikes. That said I rode Rory's (the son) 2014 KX 450 and was frgn impressed!! It was not even set up for me. The suspension was real stiff and the bars were very low for what I normally ride with.

Everything worked excellent for me - in fact the impression it left with me is that I might like to have one to race LOL I quite racing..........

Love my KTM's as there are so damn dependable, easy to take care of and fun to rideWink Grinning
Roscoe33
Posts
942
Joined
12/10/2009
Location
London CA
3/3/2014 5:49am
KTM is run by racers starting at the top that go to the races.

The Japanese have board meetings in Japan, they don't need to go to the races.
IWreckALot
Posts
8678
Joined
3/12/2011
Location
Fort Worth, TX US
3/3/2014 5:59am
Does Decoster have an engineering degree or did he just learn all he knows through by trial and error and learning from others?
joeellis
Posts
695
Joined
7/5/2013
Location
Wilson, NC US
3/3/2014 6:46am
Jbrandmx85 wrote:
Im just wondering if ktm will eventually goto an aluminum frame like the japs
I come from a bicycle (road) racing background and I tried a variety of frame materials. I finished racing before carcon fiber literally took over the high end frame market, but I've owned and raced frames made of the other materials.

I believe steel is a better material for frames than aluminum for several reasons. Primarily, it is more forgiving. With aluminum the wall thickness and/or size of the tubing needs to be substantially larger than steel to obtain the same reliable strength. This tranlates into a more harsh ride and the rigidity causes it to not flex as much as steel which affects the handling slightly. A steel frame is also going to be slightly heavier than an aluminum frame of the same strength. The down side with steel is the need to be painted to prevent corosion.

All these bike's are probably over designed for strength, but another thing is that a steel frame will normaly show fatigue before it fails, where aluminum does not. I'm not talking about an instantaneous failure due to a horiffic crash, but normal fatigue incurred over many year's of use.

One material I'm suprised manufacturer's haven't experimented with is Titanium. I'm sure there is a reason. More than likely price is a major factor and possibly availability. The last bicycle I raced on was Titanium. It performed and handled much more like a steel frame than aluminum, only it was softer while still being as rigid. Another great thing is that a Titanium frame was considerably lighter than a steel frame.
resetjet
Posts
2449
Joined
3/16/2012
Location
Tampa, FL US
3/3/2014 7:03am
Another important fact is that KTM owns offroad. Their offroad bikes are not that different from the mx, they take the same basic race bike and tailor it. They even have the xc model which can be used for both out of the box. Also, the kids bikes. Brand loyalty is gonna go out the window for the japs as soon as us older stop dudes buying bikes in numbers and the kids who grew up on a KTM start. Its starting to be a big window for KTM to capitalize on. Then we have the two stroke argument. At the hare scramble I went to yesterday there were alot of early 2000 jap 2 strokes.....They are still competitive in amatuer races to a degree. Soon, the will be hard to repair and will disappear rather quickly. Smartest thing yamaha did was keep making the same bike for the next 10 years, its still a great bike.
daveoevo
Posts
194
Joined
5/1/2011
Location
GB
3/3/2014 7:32am
The ktm model is just so different from the other teams. They try to get the best people all the way through the team there have been quite a few rider mechanics that have stayed on as technicians once the rider has moved.
Sprew
Posts
401
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
3/3/2014 7:56am
Jbrandmx85 wrote:
Im just wondering if ktm will eventually goto an aluminum frame like the japs
joeellis wrote:
I come from a bicycle (road) racing background and I tried a variety of frame materials. I finished racing before carcon fiber literally took over the...
I come from a bicycle (road) racing background and I tried a variety of frame materials. I finished racing before carcon fiber literally took over the high end frame market, but I've owned and raced frames made of the other materials.

I believe steel is a better material for frames than aluminum for several reasons. Primarily, it is more forgiving. With aluminum the wall thickness and/or size of the tubing needs to be substantially larger than steel to obtain the same reliable strength. This tranlates into a more harsh ride and the rigidity causes it to not flex as much as steel which affects the handling slightly. A steel frame is also going to be slightly heavier than an aluminum frame of the same strength. The down side with steel is the need to be painted to prevent corosion.

All these bike's are probably over designed for strength, but another thing is that a steel frame will normaly show fatigue before it fails, where aluminum does not. I'm not talking about an instantaneous failure due to a horiffic crash, but normal fatigue incurred over many year's of use.

One material I'm suprised manufacturer's haven't experimented with is Titanium. I'm sure there is a reason. More than likely price is a major factor and possibly availability. The last bicycle I raced on was Titanium. It performed and handled much more like a steel frame than aluminum, only it was softer while still being as rigid. Another great thing is that a Titanium frame was considerably lighter than a steel frame.
Read your history books. Ironically, DeCoster was involved in that exploration. That said, has improvements in process and alloying made this a viable alloy? As you stated, cost would be a factor. Especially in the consumer market.
davistld01
Posts
8740
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Springfield, MO US
3/3/2014 7:57am
IWreckALot wrote:
Does Decoster have an engineering degree or did he just learn all he knows through by trial and error and learning from others?
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was so eager to sign him when they started their push for a US mx/sx championship. I think he basically made the Dungey-mobile what it is today...or he had a lot to do with it.
Sprew
Posts
401
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
3/3/2014 7:58am
IWreckALot wrote:
Does Decoster have an engineering degree or did he just learn all he knows through by trial and error and learning from others?
davistld01 wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was...
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was so eager to sign him when they started their push for a US mx/sx championship. I think he basically made the Dungey-mobile what it is today...or he had a lot to do with it.
Classic
3/3/2014 11:26am
I don't know 2015 KTM models frame material, but KTM has invested a lot in the past year for aluminum welding.
The Rock
Posts
8759
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI US
3/3/2014 12:10pm
IWreckALot wrote:
Does Decoster have an engineering degree or did he just learn all he knows through by trial and error and learning from others?
davistld01 wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was...
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was so eager to sign him when they started their push for a US mx/sx championship. I think he basically made the Dungey-mobile what it is today...or he had a lot to do with it.
The Man does not have a degree in mechanical engineering but that hasn't stopped him from becoming proficient with a CNC machine. After testing he's been known to go back to the race shop and machine for instance a new set of triple clamps to be tested the next day.
davistld01
Posts
8740
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Springfield, MO US
3/3/2014 12:16pm
IWreckALot wrote:
Does Decoster have an engineering degree or did he just learn all he knows through by trial and error and learning from others?
davistld01 wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was...
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was so eager to sign him when they started their push for a US mx/sx championship. I think he basically made the Dungey-mobile what it is today...or he had a lot to do with it.
The Rock wrote:
The Man does not have a degree in mechanical engineering but that hasn't stopped him from becoming proficient with a CNC machine. After testing he's been...
The Man does not have a degree in mechanical engineering but that hasn't stopped him from becoming proficient with a CNC machine. After testing he's been known to go back to the race shop and machine for instance a new set of triple clamps to be tested the next day.
OK...I was wrong.
jhansen510
Posts
2398
Joined
2/10/2009
Location
GREENFIELD, MN US
Fantasy
4078th
3/3/2014 5:32pm
davistld01 wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was...
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that DeCoster does in fact have a degree in mechanical engineering. That's one reason KTM was so eager to sign him when they started their push for a US mx/sx championship. I think he basically made the Dungey-mobile what it is today...or he had a lot to do with it.
The Rock wrote:
The Man does not have a degree in mechanical engineering but that hasn't stopped him from becoming proficient with a CNC machine. After testing he's been...
The Man does not have a degree in mechanical engineering but that hasn't stopped him from becoming proficient with a CNC machine. After testing he's been known to go back to the race shop and machine for instance a new set of triple clamps to be tested the next day.
davistld01 wrote:
OK...I was wrong.
Yes, Yes you were. Go to your hold and stay there....
MxKing809
Posts
6375
Joined
10/13/2013
Location
Big Sand Whoops, MI US
Fantasy
1535th
3/3/2014 6:48pm
I don't know 2015 KTM models frame material, but KTM has invested a lot in the past year for aluminum welding.


GO ON.......
3/4/2014 1:08am Edited Date/Time 3/4/2014 1:32am
There is a lot of other mfg in the EU that utilizes mfg technology applicable to a motorcycle steel frame. Kart racing chassis for instance became quite sophisticated in the late 80s and early 90s when CNC tube benders started being utilized...with a lot of that going on in Italy and France. There are a lot of highly skilled engineers and mfg people in Europe who know a lot about the art of fabricated steel frames...deep talent pool to draw from with lots of tricks and exposure to motorsports culture. I think that culture and tribal knowledge does not exist in the same manner in Asia. So the choice also has a lot to do with the "mfg culture" available.

Steel frames have a lot of interesting characteristics. I learned something really interesting when I used to kart race, and some of the Euro guys came over for some for a few CIK events in the US. Those top guys use a chassis only half a dozen times. After that...they use a new one. On rougher tracks...they might only use a kart a few times. The steel strain hardens from load cycles..and the chassis gets stiffer and deader...and stops working as well.

BLM...out of Italy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJC6_eSfmU&list=PL013F30F249602E5B
OriolMassot
Posts
516
Joined
12/27/2010
Location
We speak Catalan AD
3/4/2014 2:34am
My wonder is if any japanese brand will go back to a steel frame.
MxKing809
Posts
6375
Joined
10/13/2013
Location
Big Sand Whoops, MI US
Fantasy
1535th
3/4/2014 8:17am
My wonder is if any japanese brand will go back to a steel frame.
I highly doubt it, they're so ridgid and opposed to change I can't see them making a knee jerk reaction to copy KTM.
Grizz
Posts
3109
Joined
7/2/2012
Location
Los Angeles, CA US
3/4/2014 8:18am
I would imagine Jap bikes went to aluminum because it was cheaper for them. Not much better or worse than steel, so there had to be another reason.

KTM's are becoming better than the Jap bikes. I wouldn't have touched one 5 years ago, but now, I'll probably end up on one in 5 years!

Post a reply to: Factory KTM question/opinion

The Latest