An analytical Stewart thread...

WhKnuckle
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Edited Date/Time 3/18/2012 4:51pm
Instead of the usual bile-spewing vs lovefests that James Stewart threads usually turn into, I have to wonder - what's really going wrong? Is it the bike? Is it his riding? Is it both?

When I watch him ride, it's obvious to me that his bike has a real problem with rear end traction. That's what happens on starts, and that's what happens when he gets into a rhythm or whoop section and the thing suddenly goes sideways on a jump transition or lip. Not only does it break loose, but when it does, the thing just goes sideways, all at once. That's a bike problem - a guy can't ride very fast if he's scared to open the throttle.

On my 500, it sometimes lights the rear up, but it doesn't just violently go sideways. Why does James' bike do that?

It could simply be tires. Pirellis aren't highly developed SX tires. Remember when Roger D switched the Suzuki team to Dunlops from Michelins? Nothing wrong with Michelins for regular MX, but SX is a different game. You'd think JGR would do the same thing if it was that simple.

In my opinion, JGR hasn't been able to figure out how to make that thing weight-transfer right, or if they have, they can't convince James that their setup will work. So how do you make it transfer weight better? By softer, much more progressive rear suspension - so the bike sits down lower under acceleration, putting more weight on the rear end.

It would also help to take some of the snap out of the engine - but I imagine they'd hate to have to do that when they're already struggling with starts. But a snappy engine isn't the same thing as a powerful engine - a heavier crank would obviously help.

It would really be interesting to know which of those things JGR has tried and James just didn't like they way they felt, or maybe JGR didn't try them because they didn't think they'd work, or maybe they've gotten to a stage of both sides thinking it's all the other guys' fault. I think it's "common knowledge" (whatever that is) that James likes super stiff suspension and super snappy engines, but surely JBone has enough credibility to just say, "Look, the title is gone now. Try it our way for a couple of races and see what happens. How much worse could it be?"
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tns
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3/18/2012 5:54am
i think this week we had a track that was hard to find and maintain traction as we saw with so many riders sliding out or losing the front end with james i also think he needs a slightly lighter rear spring to allow it to squat as he puts the power down.
motosmith
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3/18/2012 5:56am
Last night was a case of whiskey throttle. He just grabbed a little too much. He would have been just fine if Windham didn't hit him. Not Windhams fault either. Just racing.

Did you see Villo breaking loose coming down the start straight every lap? The track was slick.
crf250pilot
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3/18/2012 6:03am
So did Bubs get beat straight up last night? I can't remember if the straight up rule applies when a rider lawn darts across the track and takes out half the pack in the first 2 seconds of the race.
DoctorJD
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3/18/2012 6:15am
He needs to ride Davi's setup. He doesn't seem to be having these problems.

The Shop

WhKnuckle
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3/18/2012 6:34am
So did Bubs get beat straight up last night? I can't remember if the straight up rule applies when a rider lawn darts across the track...
So did Bubs get beat straight up last night? I can't remember if the straight up rule applies when a rider lawn darts across the track and takes out half the pack in the first 2 seconds of the race.
Congratulations for being the first guy who couldn't digest the first 8 words of a thread.
jamma10
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3/18/2012 6:41am
tns wrote:
i think this week we had a track that was hard to find and maintain traction as we saw with so many riders sliding out or...
i think this week we had a track that was hard to find and maintain traction as we saw with so many riders sliding out or losing the front end with james i also think he needs a slightly lighter rear spring to allow it to squat as he puts the power down.
this.
WhKnuckle
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3/18/2012 6:48am
tns wrote:
i think this week we had a track that was hard to find and maintain traction as we saw with so many riders sliding out or...
i think this week we had a track that was hard to find and maintain traction as we saw with so many riders sliding out or losing the front end with james i also think he needs a slightly lighter rear spring to allow it to squat as he puts the power down.
jamma10 wrote:
this.
But it's been happening all year. Obviously it happens on slicker tracks, but the other teams seems to be able to deal with it. Stewart, on the other hand, goes out there and looks like he's riding on ice. Even when he doesn't fall, he'll do a few good laps and then slide around and swap and blow a lap or two.

Slick tracks are a fact of life. JGR and/or Stewart just don't seem to be able to come to a meeting of the minds about how to deal with them.
bullpen58
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3/18/2012 6:48am
DoctorJD wrote:
He needs to ride Davi's setup. He doesn't seem to be having these problems.
BINGO!
gsxrcr28
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3/18/2012 6:50am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2012 7:00am
So did Bubs get beat straight up last night? I can't remember if the straight up rule applies when a rider lawn darts across the track...
So did Bubs get beat straight up last night? I can't remember if the straight up rule applies when a rider lawn darts across the track and takes out half the pack in the first 2 seconds of the race.
WhKnuckle wrote:
Congratulations for being the first guy who couldn't digest the first 8 words of a thread.
Unfortunately it doesn't take long for that to happen on here.

I think it was just a case of a very slick track, guys were sliding around a lot. And like motosmith said he would not of crashed if he had not gotten hit after he spun.
tmauto769
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3/18/2012 6:56am
DoctorJD wrote:
He needs to ride Davi's setup. He doesn't seem to be having these problems.
Kind of what I was thinking, I for one like Davi, and I am glad to see him doing well.
3/18/2012 7:06am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2012 7:10am
DoctorJD wrote:
He needs to ride Davi's setup. He doesn't seem to be having these problems.
tmauto769 wrote:
Kind of what I was thinking, I for one like Davi, and I am glad to see him doing well.
The problem with trying davis bike is that james stewarts riding style is so much different from davis. Stewart is an all out kind of guy while davi is fast but seems to be real conservitive when he rides. I think trying davis setup would just lead to more problems.
bullpen58
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3/18/2012 7:06am
DoctorJD wrote:
He needs to ride Davi's setup. He doesn't seem to be having these problems.
tmauto769 wrote:
Kind of what I was thinking, I for one like Davi, and I am glad to see him doing well.
I guess Davi is part of the 99% of us that the Yamaha works well for and he is not "elite" enough to experience the same problems as James Stewart, Christophe Pourcel, and Josh Grant. Laughing
newmann
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3/18/2012 7:08am
Change the steering head angle (offset bearing races) and triple clamp offset so it corners like a Suzuki while retaining his stiff front suspension since he attacks the track head on. Then soften the rear suspension up a bunch so that when he's on the gas hard the rear squats and hooks up and the front end rakes out making it stable at speed. Some other guy on a blue bike with 72 SX wins tried a setup like that a decade ago. Do people forget this shit??
lappedrider
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3/18/2012 7:09am
I was also just reading about how JGR has fabricated custom gas tanks and shrouds to allow James to ride further forward on the bike. It looked like last night his weight was on top of the front end when be grabbed a handful of throttle. Maybe he needs to adjust his style a little for the Yamaha?
Paul333
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3/18/2012 7:09am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2012 7:10am
I think it's real simple.

He takes too many chances/pushes too hard at the wrong times. Obviously he is always lightening fast, but some times it bites him.
GuyB
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3/18/2012 7:10am
So did Bubs get beat straight up last night? I can't remember if the straight up rule applies when a rider lawn darts across the track...
So did Bubs get beat straight up last night? I can't remember if the straight up rule applies when a rider lawn darts across the track and takes out half the pack in the first 2 seconds of the race.
At this level it's straight up every time the gate drops and the checkered flag falls.

The only reason it's not straight up is to make some poster feel better about "his" rider's results...or lack thereof.
WhKnuckle
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3/18/2012 7:16am
I was also just reading about how JGR has fabricated custom gas tanks and shrouds to allow James to ride further forward on the bike. It...
I was also just reading about how JGR has fabricated custom gas tanks and shrouds to allow James to ride further forward on the bike. It looked like last night his weight was on top of the front end when be grabbed a handful of throttle. Maybe he needs to adjust his style a little for the Yamaha?
I thought about that too. James has always been an "over the front" rider, even back in his 125 days. Even more reason for a softer rear and maybe moving the rear wheel back as far as possible to increase the wheelbase. But testing is always as much psychological and debating skills as it is engineering - the rider has to believe in something, and if he believes in something that isn't working and you can't change his mind, you're in tough shape. But you watch his skipping and sliding and swapping all year, and you just think surely there comes a time when the rider would just say, "Set this thing up like you think it should be and I'll see if I can ride it." Maybe they've already done that and it didn't help.
Smitch
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3/18/2012 7:18am
Maybe he is getting older, like the rest of us.
RaceFace
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3/18/2012 7:29am
DoctorJD wrote:
He needs to ride Davi's setup. He doesn't seem to be having these problems.
tmauto769 wrote:
Kind of what I was thinking, I for one like Davi, and I am glad to see him doing well.
The problem with trying davis bike is that james stewarts riding style is so much different from davis. Stewart is an all out kind of guy...
The problem with trying davis bike is that james stewarts riding style is so much different from davis. Stewart is an all out kind of guy while davi is fast but seems to be real conservitive when he rides. I think trying davis setup would just lead to more problems.
Davi recently said that he hasn't done much testing and basically goes with what James and JGR come up with. He also said the bike has gotten better since James has been there. I think they are riding pretty much the same setup from these comments from Davi. The problem seems to be with what you pointed out:

"Stewart is an all out kind of guy while Davi is fast but seems to be real conservative".
Hando
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3/18/2012 7:53am
the JS era is over...just wait till the new guys like barcia and tomac move up...
newmann
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3/18/2012 7:57am
Hando wrote:
the JS era is over...just wait till the new guys like barcia and tomac move up...
No doubt it's not going to get any easier for him. But if he could ever figure out how to make things work he could be the next Windham, Larocco and Dowd all rolled up in one. Just keep it off the ground.
txmxer
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3/18/2012 8:02am
Davi's size/weight may actually be an advantage on the YZF.
RaceFace
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3/18/2012 8:09am
Any guesses on how much more Davi weighs than James?
And I don't think Davi rides as far forward as James does. Maybe they need to rotate the engine .5 millimeters to the back?

Here's the thing, James wicked the throttle on a small jump face with the bike leaned a bit from completing a turn and lost traction on a slick spot. We've all done it, all Pros have done it, and it was rider error in our/their own minds every time. This fall was James' rider error. No setup/bike design is ever going to provide never-ending traction in all conditions or prevent falling in all circumstances. James rode Daytona as conditions dictated. He made adjustments in his riding for conditions. He wicked the throttle on that jump face like he was at Red Bud, not a slick Indy track. He didn't adjust his riding for track conditions. If he rode Daytona how he would have ridden a dry Red Bud, he wouldn't have made it very far into that race either. We saw RV go down in his heat as well. That track looked like it was made of ice with dirt sprinkled on top to cover it. By the way, was Indy ever slick like this in the past? I always remembered it having great traction.
jtomasik
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3/18/2012 8:15am
A bazillion possible solutions suggested, many of those have probably been tried by the team, so who knows? I think it's time off the bike that's making it harder on James. He has always struggled with crashing, but there were some seasons that he got through with a title.

I think his best bet would be to not sweat the title, stay racing, concentrate on developing both himself and that bike over time (don't gotta win all the races), maybe develop a little more patience, race outdoors, and shoot for the titles next season. If he could mature a tiny bit when it comes to a willingness to take second or third, I think the guy could dominate.

Hopefully he's not getting concussions...scariest injury I can think of.
SL91
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3/18/2012 8:16am
I think James' problem may have started with the bike early in the season, but now I think his problem is all about confidence. I feel so bad for the guy, but this isn't the first time a pro athlete has had a bad run. Like others who have, he just has to stick with it and work through it.
WhKnuckle
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3/18/2012 8:18am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2012 8:20am
Hando wrote:
the JS era is over...just wait till the new guys like barcia and tomac move up...
I certainly don't know any more about it than anyone else, but if James lines up for SX next year I'll be the most shocked guy in America. That's one of the reasons I'd sure like to see him get things worked out - he's probably put more courage and artistry into his riding over the last several years than anyone, and I'd sure like to see him get on a winning streak just to remind everyone what kind of rider he is. I don't care what anyone thinks about his TV show or his lifestyle or whatever - watching James Stewart riding SX has been a pleasure, and I'd like to see him get his slick-track issues worked out. When the track isn't rutty and deep, he's all over the place.
slipdog
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3/18/2012 8:18am
Won't somebody think of the children!


Seriously, as long as we're all taking wild guesses and nobody here has any real clue about how his bike is set up... I'm going with too light of a crankshaft! He wants to jump over the first 9 jumps in a rhythm section with a 50' run so the build his motor with mega torque and a super light crank. A 2-stroke type powerband.

When he gets in low traction situations like last night(leaned over on slick dirt) or skimming whoops his motor revs up too fast and his rear wheel breaks loose.

What I don't understand is, how can JGR be so stupid and not listen to all our FREE advice we give out here at Vitalmx Performance???
Hank_Thrill
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3/18/2012 8:19am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2012 8:24am
Physics, the more central the weight is on something the easier it is to rotate. That's why ice skaters pull their arms in and start spinning like a top. Yamaha centralized the weight to make it "feel" lighter and turn easier. Keep in mind cornering has to do with changing directions of momentum. That also seems to be one problem James is having: the bike has a problem changing directions when the rider wants it to go in a straight line (swapping out to the left or right). A bike with more centralized weight will be more prone for the ends of the bike to unwillingly change directions (since the weight is in the center making it easier to rotate) this than a bike weight towards the ends.
WhKnuckle
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3/18/2012 8:23am
slipdog wrote:
Won't somebody think of the children! Seriously, as long as we're all taking wild guesses and nobody here has any real clue about how his bike...
Won't somebody think of the children!


Seriously, as long as we're all taking wild guesses and nobody here has any real clue about how his bike is set up... I'm going with too light of a crankshaft! He wants to jump over the first 9 jumps in a rhythm section with a 50' run so the build his motor with mega torque and a super light crank. A 2-stroke type powerband.

When he gets in low traction situations like last night(leaned over on slick dirt) or skimming whoops his motor revs up too fast and his rear wheel breaks loose.

What I don't understand is, how can JGR be so stupid and not listen to all our FREE advice we give out here at Vitalmx Performance???
I imagine that Jbone has forgotten more than everyone on VitalMX ever knew.

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