350F Question

bsm121*
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 3:12pm
All of this talk/debate about the possibility of a 350 got me thinking...

you hear a lot about how the 350 would be lighter, still deliver plenty of power, and how the riders would probably be able to go faster on them...and how 250F lap times are already close to 450F lap times...yadda yadda yadda.

i didn't think that lap times, or speed, was the only part of jumping up to the SX class.[u:mesucw89] Isn't part of the challenge (even in the 2 stroke days) learning how to control the power of the bigger bike? [/u:mesucw89] I remember RC talking about the adjustments he had to make when he first jumped to the 250 in SX and how he couldn't just hold the throttle open like on the 125. He beat himself to death, but eventually learned how to get it done. Why would the AMA want to change this? It seems kind of ass backwards to change this aspect of the racing and the maturation of the rider.
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1/30/2008 3:31pm
Do you not know that AMA doesnt do anything right?
rocrac
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1/30/2008 3:38pm
At some point you need to slow the sport down some as other motorsports have done to lower risks of catastrophic injury.

On the other hand the costs of racing smaller bore 4 strokes will drive all but the wealthy from the sport both pro and amateurs.

Damn those 4 strokes. I wonder what the cost difference is between a full on factory 125 against todays full on factory 250f.
bsm121*
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1/30/2008 3:55pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="rocrac":2o42lwvd][b:2o42lwvd]At some point you need to slow the sport down[/b:2o42lwvd] some as other motorsports have done to lower risks of catastrophic injury.

On the other hand the costs of racing smaller bore 4 strokes will drive all but the wealthy from the sport both pro and amateurs.

Damn those 4 strokes. I wonder what the cost difference is between a full on factory 125 against todays full on factory 250f.[/quote:2o42lwvd]


It has been discussed...at least in SX...that the riders would go faster on the 350... :?
1/30/2008 4:39pm
For the amateur rider who races occasionally. i think 350 is the perfect size.

Erik

The Shop

Scotty
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1/30/2008 5:25pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
Ask Villopoto how his 350 does <img class= " title="Laughing">
beamer
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1/30/2008 6:03pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="Scotty":ff0ojqxg]Ask Villopoto how his 350 does <img class= " title="Laughing">[/quote:ff0ojqxg]

You don't think the PC boys have ever been protested and tore down? I realize your probably being sarcastic, but what are the odds that those bikes actually ARE illegal? And if they are I would doubt it would be on displacement.
1/30/2008 6:04pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
When 450s took over in SX, they learned to do whoops in 4th. This chewed up whoops. SX night programs were crashfests.

Anaheims have hard dirt and all of a sudden everyone was on LN's/Dirt Werx asses for not knowing how to build whoops anymore. They tried a lot of things, different spacing, heights, this and that, and concluded 450s were too much, and whoops were not the only reason. The AMA (Whitelock) agreed.

This went to backrooms and the AMA got yelled down by the OEMs. Whitelock took the matter to the FIM about one year ago, and not only did they agree, they said the 250Fs were killing their amateur base due to the high costs of maintaining vs a 125. Now the AMA and FIM agree, and this is what SX wanted. The only ones left complaining are fans and American importers US-OEMs, except for KTM. KTM loves it.

The 350 thing went through that way, and its a reality for the MX1 class in GPs in 2010. The 350s are coming. SX is FIM too. Done deal.

This global report was brought to you at no charge by http://www.racetime.com, an independent, global, news platform. <img class= " title="Smile">
1/30/2008 6:06pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
if the AMA and you and the rest had a clue it would be "run what ya brung". that will make the actual racing determine what the fuck is goin on. The cream will rise to the top so to speak.
ninety3
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1/30/2008 7:00pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="BobbyM":1ntyhf92]if the AMA and you and the rest had a clue it would be "run what ya brung". that will make the actual racing determine what the fuck is goin on. The cream will rise to the top so to speak.[/quote:1ntyhf92]
That was the format at the JMI, some of the best indoor racing ever.
Tiki
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Fantasy
1/30/2008 7:40pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="Racetime":2x0dvsix]When 450s took over in SX, they learned to do whoops in 4th. This chewed up whoops. SX night programs were crashfests.

Anaheims have hard dirt and all of a sudden everyone was on LN's/Dirt Werx asses for not knowing how to build whoops anymore. They tried a lot of things, different spacing, heights, this and that, and concluded 450s were too much, and whoops were not the only reason. The AMA (Whitelock) agreed.

This went to backrooms and the AMA got yelled down by the OEMs. Whitelock took the matter to the FIM about one year ago, and not only did they agree, they said the 250Fs were killing their amateur base due to the high costs of maintaining vs a 125. Now the AMA and FIM agree, and this is what SX wanted. The only ones left complaining are fans and American importers US-OEMs, except for KTM. KTM loves it.

The 350 thing went through that way, and its a reality for the MX1 class in GPs in 2010. The 350s are coming. SX is FIM too. Done deal.

This global report was brought to you at no charge by http://www.racetime.com, an independent, global, news platform. <img class= " title="Smile">[/quote:2x0dvsix]

Here we go. More so called facts from Mr. hearsay.
Where's your slide rule to confirm these standards and measurements?
level
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1/30/2008 7:49pm
I think the reason most people switched to the 250f instead of a 125 was pretty obvious. It's just a better bike. Hell, the 250f is a better bike then the 250 2 stroke if you ask me. Also, if I remember right, when you bought a 2 stroke you had to put mods on it right away to be competitive and easily be in the thousands in upgrades right away. With a 4 stroke your good right out of the showroom. Also, look how the 4 strokes have leveled the playing field allowing privateers to finally compete against the top guys. On the 2 stroke this was difficult because of all the money and mods put into 2 strokes with the factory teams made the bike so much more competitive than the average privateer could make it. It was just too tough and much to expensive to make their bikes competitive. You guys sure spend alot of time bitching about 4 strokes but never discuss the upsides. It's just the classic pessimistic attitude displayed by most people who want to go against the popular opinion. That being said, I love the idea of a 350 but would wonder how they would do the classes then? Just really wouldn't be necessary to have a 250f, 450f, and 350f class or even a 250f and 350f class if the 450 went away.
newmann
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1/30/2008 7:50pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="bsm121*":3cmldegf]All of this talk/debate about the possibility of a 350 got me thinking...

you hear a lot about how the 350 would be lighter, .[/quote:3cmldegf]


How would it be any lighter? The minimum weight limit for the SX and MX class is 216lbs. The factory 450's have been weighing in at that weight for a long time. RC's Honda 450 was 218 and I'm sure that was allowing for the bike to puke out 2 lbs. of fluids (not including fuel) and silencer packing during the moto. What they need to do is lower the weight limit to 195lbs. for the big bikes and 175 for the lites. Maybe then we'd see the first real advvancement in moto since 1989.
race
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1/30/2008 8:08pm
These threads are completely pointless.

You thumper drivers consistently ignore the stated reasons for the rule changes ... or try to bend the reasons around to sound like something else. They've been stated over and over and over.

You know perfectly well what they are so why don't you simply state you don't like them and drop any other pretenses. And NO ... just stating one of the reasons and ignoring the others does not get you any debate points.
1/30/2008 8:20pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="Tiki":1t9le7e5][quote="Racetime":1t9le7e5]When 450s took over in SX, they learned to do whoops in 4th. This chewed up whoops. SX night programs were crashfests.

Anaheims have hard dirt and all of a sudden everyone was on LN's/Dirt Werx asses for not knowing how to build whoops anymore. They tried a lot of things, different spacing, heights, this and that, and concluded 450s were too much, and whoops were not the only reason. The AMA (Whitelock) agreed.

This went to backrooms and the AMA got yelled down by the OEMs. Whitelock took the matter to the FIM about one year ago, and not only did they agree, they said the 250Fs were killing their amateur base due to the high costs of maintaining vs a 125. Now the AMA and FIM agree, and this is what SX wanted. The only ones left complaining are fans and American importers US-OEMs, except for KTM. KTM loves it.

The 350 thing went through that way, and its a reality for the MX1 class in GPs in 2010. The 350s are coming. SX is FIM too. Done deal.

This global report was brought to you at no charge by http://www.racetime.com, an independent, global, news platform. <img class= " title="Smile">[/quote:1t9le7e5]

Here we go. More so called facts from Mr. hearsay.
Where's your slide rule to confirm these standards and measurements?[/quote:1t9le7e5]

you crack me up. Ask 500guy. I was in the stupid meetings!
1/30/2008 8:35pm
If they really want to level the playing field put sound and H.P. limits on the classes...plain and simple if you went to a 350cc then the factory guys will run away just like Pro Circuit does in the lites..You hear time and time again about how the 250f class is all about H.P. and thats the reason alot of privateers run 450's they can not financially build a competitive 250f to run with P.C. or even factory guys...If they go to the 350's it will be the same as it was for the privateers as it was when they were on 250 2t..
1/31/2008 6:45am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="buckettim":32kaflh3]If they really want to level the playing field put sound and H.P. limits on the classes...plain and simple if you went to a 350cc then the factory guys will run away just like Pro Circuit does in the lites..You hear time and time again about how the 250f class is all about H.P. and thats the reason alot of privateers run 450's they can not financially build a competitive 250f to run with P.C. or even factory guys...If they go to the 350's it will be the same as it was for the privateers as it was when they were on 250 2t..[/quote:32kaflh3]

Read above note about whoops not staying together under 450s.

This all started with tracks coming apart, not with "level playing field" goals in mind.
bogdan912
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1/31/2008 6:56am
How would being in 4rth gear do more damage to whoops? The whole reason to be in 4rth is so your bike doesn't rev out. Being in 2nd through the whoops would tear the shit out of them.
level
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1/31/2008 7:01am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2008 7:02am
I think the tracks and whoops have been getting chewed up ever since supercross was invented regardless of it being ridden with a 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
1/31/2008 7:01am
Were there every talks about changing the look of a SX track? Maybe build some new obstacles and take it to the next level? I dont know what that would be, but all the bright minds in this industry surely could come up with something to replace the whoops sections? Just curious if this was ever discussed or considered an option rather than changing bike displacements?
Racer92
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1/31/2008 7:03am
Supercross whoops are stupid.

There, I said it.
bogdan912
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1/31/2008 7:13am
Whoops are the place where time is won and lost, a good deep long whoop section will separate the men from the boys. If they want the whoops to last longer, make them so everyone isn't going 40mph through them.
JustMX
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1/31/2008 7:14am
So instead of trying to force the 350 conversion on the factories and the expense of changing R &D results and tool and die, molds, etc, Why not just call them into a meeting and say this:

We have decided to leave premiere class at 450cc.

Starting with the first round of the 2009 Supercross series, all four strokes must meet a maximum noise level of 85 DB.

The tests will be conducted with the DB meter 3' away from the silencer tip.

Sound level will be the maximum at ANY RPM. To prevent remapped ignitions, extra air filters, and other bullshit attempts to circumvent these limits, the top 10 machines at each event will be impounded and subject to a retest right after the main event.

Any machine is subject to retest at anytime during an event if there is reason to believe the machine is not in compliance.

If a rider is involved in a collision, or the rider is involved in a crash that damages the exhaust they will get an exemption provided there is no evidence that there was intent to circumvent the rule.

Oh, while you are at it, apply this to the lites class as well.

Because of the displacement advantage given to the 4 strokes, two stroke machines will have a more lenient limit of 92 db.

This will have the extra beneficial result of sounding really cool.

Meeting adjourned.
1/31/2008 7:34am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="evsracer912":pvzcvv6p]How would being in 4rth gear do more damage to whoops? The whole reason to be in 4rth is so your bike doesn't rev out. Being in 2nd through the whoops would tear the shit out of them.[/quote:pvzcvv6p]

torque.
bogdan912
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1/31/2008 7:43am
Less wheel spin.
FLvet
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1/31/2008 7:45am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2008 7:47am
Torque and the every other firing stroke means it hooks up better = more roost = more track damage. Also 450's are heavier too which helps to tear things up a bit.
1/31/2008 7:46am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="evsracer912":15sgsrb5]Less wheel spin.[/quote:15sgsrb5]

seatbounce.
Racer92
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1/31/2008 7:47am
Dunno if its just me, but the 450s throw roost WAY more than a smoker. Ive been blasted so hard on some tracks it almost knocked me off the bike.
1/31/2008 7:57am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="FLvet":1hp6bevi]Torque and the every other firing stroke means it hooks up better = more roost = more track damage. Also 450's are heavier too which helps to tear things up a bit.[/quote:1hp6bevi]

You pretty much nailed it. Dr Seatbounce salutes you.
<img class= " title="Smile">

Dirt track and road engineers have known for years that a pulsing engine makes better traction, which = less spinning and more track damage.

Harley's ruled dirt track because of a screwy engineering decision a zillion years ago to make engines that were not 180 deg opposed.
bogdan912
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1/31/2008 8:06am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 6:06pm
[quote="Racetime":1l7lpzs6][quote="evsracer912":1l7lpzs6]Less wheel spin.[/quote:1l7lpzs6]

seatbounce.[/quote:1l7lpzs6]


airplane on treadmill.
MX7MX
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1/31/2008 11:28am
so your saying that this whole ordeal was brought about because of some fucking whoops getting tore up???? Its all a ploy to bring back the 2 strokes.....plain and simple, you watch though, the 350F's will tear up the whoops and make just as much noise and be faster than the 2 strokes........so we really have not solved anything and if the riders can go FASTER on these bikes......how is that making it safer??

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