09 yz 250 detonating

yzkrazy219
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Wirtz, VA US
Edited Date/Time 2/26/2012 5:40pm
What is the best way to keep this bike from detonating? I'm an A rider and the bike has a fmf fatty pipe, stock jetting, 93 pump gas mixed with motul 800 50:1. Some guys just say run race gas and some say just retard the timing. Im trying to keep from running race gas because $9 a gallon is a bit crazy if you ask me. What is the best fix to this problem?
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MtnBoy
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2/21/2012 8:51am
Run a 50/50 mix of race gas with regular gas.

I had YZs for years and tried everything to get them to not detonate, race gas is your best bet, especially at the A class level.
mxtech1
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2/21/2012 9:05am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2012 9:07am
You're jetting is likely off. You probably need to be +2 on the pilot and main jet with your aftermarket pipe. You shouldn't alter the timing unless you are trying to change the power curve.

How does the bike idle? A properly jetted MX bike should not idle on the stand w/o the rider goosing it. If it idles smoothly, you should adjust your fuel mixture screw so that it will stall out with no throttle input. Turn the mixture screw in to achieve this setting.

Throttle 1/8th to 1/2. Hold the throttle steady at different positions and listen to the engine. It should pick up cleanly and hold RPM w/o inceasing. If RPMS do not flatten and continue to climb, you are lean on your pilot and main.

Crack the throttle from these positions to fully open and release, the bike should quickly pick up and return to low rpm. If it bogs or hesitates, you are rich. Decrease pilot and main. If it picks up quickly, but hangs on RPM and hesitates to drop RPM for a second or two when you release the throttle, you are lean, decrease pilot and main.

Throttle greater than 1/2. Hold the throttle at positions greater than half. The RPMs should climb and then hold, but not sound like it peaks and then drops RPM. If you feel it drops peak RPM you are lean on the main and/or needle position. At this position, the RPM should remain constant (producing a cackling sound kind of like da-da-da-da-da-da) and then return to normal RPM quickly after shutting throttle off. If it seems to labor to reach peak RPM and does not sound crisp and crackly, you are probably rich on the main and/or needle.
Cygnus
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2/21/2012 9:15am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2012 9:19am
mxtech1 wrote:
You're jetting is likely off. You probably need to be +2 on the pilot and main jet with your aftermarket pipe. You shouldn't alter the timing...
You're jetting is likely off. You probably need to be +2 on the pilot and main jet with your aftermarket pipe. You shouldn't alter the timing unless you are trying to change the power curve.

How does the bike idle? A properly jetted MX bike should not idle on the stand w/o the rider goosing it. If it idles smoothly, you should adjust your fuel mixture screw so that it will stall out with no throttle input. Turn the mixture screw in to achieve this setting.

Throttle 1/8th to 1/2. Hold the throttle steady at different positions and listen to the engine. It should pick up cleanly and hold RPM w/o inceasing. If RPMS do not flatten and continue to climb, you are lean on your pilot and main.

Crack the throttle from these positions to fully open and release, the bike should quickly pick up and return to low rpm. If it bogs or hesitates, you are rich. Decrease pilot and main. If it picks up quickly, but hangs on RPM and hesitates to drop RPM for a second or two when you release the throttle, you are lean, decrease pilot and main.

Throttle greater than 1/2. Hold the throttle at positions greater than half. The RPMs should climb and then hold, but not sound like it peaks and then drops RPM. If you feel it drops peak RPM you are lean on the main and/or needle position. At this position, the RPM should remain constant (producing a cackling sound kind of like da-da-da-da-da-da) and then return to normal RPM quickly after shutting throttle off. If it seems to labor to reach peak RPM and does not sound crisp and crackly, you are probably rich on the main and/or needle.
BS! just get some Sunoco110 and mix 50/50 with your pump gas.
Nystrom
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2/21/2012 9:20am
A cheaptrick is using 2 gasket for the cylinder

The Shop

mxtech1
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Galesburg, IL US
2/21/2012 9:29am
mxtech1 wrote:
You're jetting is likely off. You probably need to be +2 on the pilot and main jet with your aftermarket pipe. You shouldn't alter the timing...
You're jetting is likely off. You probably need to be +2 on the pilot and main jet with your aftermarket pipe. You shouldn't alter the timing unless you are trying to change the power curve.

How does the bike idle? A properly jetted MX bike should not idle on the stand w/o the rider goosing it. If it idles smoothly, you should adjust your fuel mixture screw so that it will stall out with no throttle input. Turn the mixture screw in to achieve this setting.

Throttle 1/8th to 1/2. Hold the throttle steady at different positions and listen to the engine. It should pick up cleanly and hold RPM w/o inceasing. If RPMS do not flatten and continue to climb, you are lean on your pilot and main.

Crack the throttle from these positions to fully open and release, the bike should quickly pick up and return to low rpm. If it bogs or hesitates, you are rich. Decrease pilot and main. If it picks up quickly, but hangs on RPM and hesitates to drop RPM for a second or two when you release the throttle, you are lean, decrease pilot and main.

Throttle greater than 1/2. Hold the throttle at positions greater than half. The RPMs should climb and then hold, but not sound like it peaks and then drops RPM. If you feel it drops peak RPM you are lean on the main and/or needle position. At this position, the RPM should remain constant (producing a cackling sound kind of like da-da-da-da-da-da) and then return to normal RPM quickly after shutting throttle off. If it seems to labor to reach peak RPM and does not sound crisp and crackly, you are probably rich on the main and/or needle.
Cygnus wrote:
BS! just get some Sunoco110 and mix 50/50 with your pump gas.
Yeah just throw a band-aid over the problem by running race fuel instead of fixing the origin of the problem.

You do realize running race/high octane fuel requires a jetting change also?

So why wouldn't he jet the bike correctly to keep it on pump gas instead of running race fuel through his stock engine and jetting to match the race fuel?
MtnBoy
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2/21/2012 9:31am
mxtech1 wrote:
Yeah just throw a band-aid over the problem by running race fuel instead of fixing the origin of the problem. You do realize running race/high octane...
Yeah just throw a band-aid over the problem by running race fuel instead of fixing the origin of the problem.

You do realize running race/high octane fuel requires a jetting change also?

So why wouldn't he jet the bike correctly to keep it on pump gas instead of running race fuel through his stock engine and jetting to match the race fuel?
Because even with perfect jetting most YZs still detonate...you need race gas to truly fix the problem, just my opinion (and I'm not master mechanic haha)
lucero10x
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2/21/2012 9:33am
mxtech1 wrote:
Yeah just throw a band-aid over the problem by running race fuel instead of fixing the origin of the problem. You do realize running race/high octane...
Yeah just throw a band-aid over the problem by running race fuel instead of fixing the origin of the problem.

You do realize running race/high octane fuel requires a jetting change also?

So why wouldn't he jet the bike correctly to keep it on pump gas instead of running race fuel through his stock engine and jetting to match the race fuel?
MtnBoy wrote:
Because even with perfect jetting most YZs still detonate...you need race gas to truly fix the problem, just my opinion (and I'm not master mechanic haha)
If they are that touchy I couldn't imagine running them in the desert where you can go from 3500 ft to 6500 feet or higher during the day.
mxtech1
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2/21/2012 9:37am
mxtech1 wrote:
Yeah just throw a band-aid over the problem by running race fuel instead of fixing the origin of the problem. You do realize running race/high octane...
Yeah just throw a band-aid over the problem by running race fuel instead of fixing the origin of the problem.

You do realize running race/high octane fuel requires a jetting change also?

So why wouldn't he jet the bike correctly to keep it on pump gas instead of running race fuel through his stock engine and jetting to match the race fuel?
MtnBoy wrote:
Because even with perfect jetting most YZs still detonate...you need race gas to truly fix the problem, just my opinion (and I'm not master mechanic haha)
That's just not true. I've jetted the detonation out of several YZ's. There is a very fine window where the jetting must be to optimize the fuel burn. It's not easy because each bike is slightly different, but it can be done with time and patience.

Running race fuel is not a bad solution. It's just expensive and still requires jetting changes.

Dialing the jetting in is technically the right way to do it. And I don't know why you would not jet a 2 stroke regardless of how it was running. Maybe i'm just more ambitous and care more about free performance than the average rider...
Kryan5
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2/21/2012 9:39am
MtnBoy wrote:
Run a 50/50 mix of race gas with regular gas. I had YZs for years and tried everything to get them to not detonate, race gas...
Run a 50/50 mix of race gas with regular gas.

I had YZs for years and tried everything to get them to not detonate, race gas is your best bet, especially at the A class level.
My buddy had the same issue with his 2009 yz250. He does the mix 50/50 thing now and hasn't had any problems for over a year.
MtnBoy
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2/21/2012 9:40am
mxtech1 wrote:
That's just not true. I've jetted the detonation out of several YZ's. There is a very fine window where the jetting must be to optimize the...
That's just not true. I've jetted the detonation out of several YZ's. There is a very fine window where the jetting must be to optimize the fuel burn. It's not easy because each bike is slightly different, but it can be done with time and patience.

Running race fuel is not a bad solution. It's just expensive and still requires jetting changes.

Dialing the jetting in is technically the right way to do it. And I don't know why you would not jet a 2 stroke regardless of how it was running. Maybe i'm just more ambitous and care more about free performance than the average rider...
I'm not gonna argue, like I said, I'm not a master mechanic.

However, your jetting instructions from above (although great) are A LOT more in depth than 99% of people or going to go, not to mention if your jetting is that precise and you want it to stay that way you have to change/check it almost every time you ride. Especially if the weather changes a lot, or you go up/down in elevation etc. etc.
lumpy790
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2/21/2012 9:49am
my yz is jetted perfectly....but still pings ....nature of the beast....50/50 works..have herd about a head mod but I suspect changing the squish angle lowering the compression will loose performance
kijen
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2/21/2012 9:53am
race gas and or send your head out ro RB design and get your squish cut correctly...

this condition is talked about at length of on thumpertalk....
Cygnus
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2/21/2012 10:12am
MX tech looses credibility right away saying a Properly jetted 2 stroke shouldn't idle sitting on the stand. Secondly there is no way to jet a bike properly on the stand. It needs to be under load. Oh and I am a master mechanic.
MtnBoy
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2/21/2012 10:15am
Cygnus wrote:
MX tech looses credibility right away saying a Properly jetted 2 stroke shouldn't idle sitting on the stand. Secondly there is no way to jet a...
MX tech looses credibility right away saying a Properly jetted 2 stroke shouldn't idle sitting on the stand. Secondly there is no way to jet a bike properly on the stand. It needs to be under load. Oh and I am a master mechanic.
As far as I know a 2-stroke shouldn't idle on the stand....

In '03 I had a YZ 250, we drove all the way from Idaho to Lake Havasu for the WORCS event. My bike wouldn't run for shit so I took it over to ask the Zip Ty Racing guys for any pointers, the first thing the mechanic did was turn down the idle so the bike wouldn't run unless you were on the throttle. He said there are MANY reasons why 2 strokes shouldn't just sit and idle.
CamP
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2/21/2012 10:19am
100LL will stop the pinging. Runs $4.75/gal around here.
Cygnus
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2/21/2012 10:23am
Cygnus wrote:
MX tech looses credibility right away saying a Properly jetted 2 stroke shouldn't idle sitting on the stand. Secondly there is no way to jet a...
MX tech looses credibility right away saying a Properly jetted 2 stroke shouldn't idle sitting on the stand. Secondly there is no way to jet a bike properly on the stand. It needs to be under load. Oh and I am a master mechanic.
MtnBoy wrote:
As far as I know a 2-stroke shouldn't idle on the stand.... In '03 I had a YZ 250, we drove all the way from Idaho...
As far as I know a 2-stroke shouldn't idle on the stand....

In '03 I had a YZ 250, we drove all the way from Idaho to Lake Havasu for the WORCS event. My bike wouldn't run for shit so I took it over to ask the Zip Ty Racing guys for any pointers, the first thing the mechanic did was turn down the idle so the bike wouldn't run unless you were on the throttle. He said there are MANY reasons why 2 strokes shouldn't just sit and idle.
Every one of the 50 or so I've owned did. I don't buy into that it's just some old school wives take.
slipdog
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2/21/2012 10:27am
yzkrazy219 wrote:
What is the best way to keep this bike from detonating? I'm an A rider and the bike has a fmf fatty pipe, stock jetting, 93...
What is the best way to keep this bike from detonating? I'm an A rider and the bike has a fmf fatty pipe, stock jetting, 93 pump gas mixed with motul 800 50:1. Some guys just say run race gas and some say just retard the timing. Im trying to keep from running race gas because $9 a gallon is a bit crazy if you ask me. What is the best fix to this problem?
You can always try removing the gas cap, roll a new '12 KTM 250sx underneath, reinstall gas cap..... problem solved!

You're welcomeWink
Switch
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2/21/2012 10:33am
yzkrazy219 wrote:
What is the best way to keep this bike from detonating? I'm an A rider and the bike has a fmf fatty pipe, stock jetting, 93...
What is the best way to keep this bike from detonating? I'm an A rider and the bike has a fmf fatty pipe, stock jetting, 93 pump gas mixed with motul 800 50:1. Some guys just say run race gas and some say just retard the timing. Im trying to keep from running race gas because $9 a gallon is a bit crazy if you ask me. What is the best fix to this problem?
slipdog wrote:
You can always try removing the gas cap, roll a new '12 KTM 250sx underneath, reinstall gas cap..... problem solved!

You're welcomeWink
Woohoo
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2/21/2012 10:46am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2012 10:47am
Check the timing. Yours wouldn't be the 1st YZ mis-timed from the factory as mine was set 1 deg. advanced and would detonate like mad. Jetting is just a band aid if the timing is off.

Playing with the timing is a nice tuning method as well. Advance timing requires higher octane, but the motor will have more explosive power off the bottom. Retard the timing and you can get away with less octane and bike wont hit so hard. I would suggest reading up on TT before jumping in head first though.....
mxtech1
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2/21/2012 10:48am Edited Date/Time 2/21/2012 10:53am
Cygnus wrote:
MX tech looses credibility right away saying a Properly jetted 2 stroke shouldn't idle sitting on the stand. Secondly there is no way to jet a...
MX tech looses credibility right away saying a Properly jetted 2 stroke shouldn't idle sitting on the stand. Secondly there is no way to jet a bike properly on the stand. It needs to be under load. Oh and I am a master mechanic.
MtnBoy wrote:
As far as I know a 2-stroke shouldn't idle on the stand.... In '03 I had a YZ 250, we drove all the way from Idaho...
As far as I know a 2-stroke shouldn't idle on the stand....

In '03 I had a YZ 250, we drove all the way from Idaho to Lake Havasu for the WORCS event. My bike wouldn't run for shit so I took it over to ask the Zip Ty Racing guys for any pointers, the first thing the mechanic did was turn down the idle so the bike wouldn't run unless you were on the throttle. He said there are MANY reasons why 2 strokes shouldn't just sit and idle.
Cygnus wrote:
Every one of the 50 or so I've owned did. I don't buy into that it's just some old school wives take.
If it idles, the slide is up too far. In this condition, you can usually get away with running a leaner pilot jet. Air sucked through the slide opening is in excess. When you adjust it so it won't idle and shut the slide, you are forcing the air to be pulled through the jetting circuits. This is where the foundation of performance jetting starts. Tell me how you can consistantly jet a bike when you don't know how much air is flowing through the slide opening?

Every one of the 50 or so YZ's you've owned came with standard US jetting specs, and yes, they are set to idle because the slide is slightly rasied and the comprising jet setting allows it. How many idiots do you think would try to bring their new YZ back to the service department if it came with race spec jetting and didn't idle worth a shit? All of them...

Yes, i'm aware you can't jet on the stand, but this method gets it really close and often saves alot of time because it is close by the time you make your track adjustments. If it's jetted fairly well on the stand, it's usually nice and rideable w/o other changes.

All old school wives tales start from a kernel of the truth.
Deetsmx
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2/21/2012 11:54am
CamP wrote:
100LL will stop the pinging. Runs $4.75/gal around here.
Yup, go to the airport and get some avgas. I usually fill up a few cans and then run it 50/50 in my YZ.
Suns_PSD
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2/21/2012 12:34pm Edited Date/Time 2/21/2012 12:35pm
MXTech (Jeremy, is that you suspension guru?) nailed it every step of the way.

And 2 strokes SHOULD not idle on the stand for exactly the reason he stated.
dirthead1
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2/21/2012 12:36pm
Could always run a spark plug one or two ranges colder... Cost you $10 bucks...
sixone3
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2/21/2012 12:37pm
in the owners manual it will say " requires a minimum of 98 octane" run your fuel 50/50, it will solve the issue. My friends and myself included have all had the same problem.
MtnBoy
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2/21/2012 12:46pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
MXTech (Jeremy, is that you suspension guru?) nailed it every step of the way. And 2 strokes SHOULD not idle on the stand for exactly the...
MXTech (Jeremy, is that you suspension guru?) nailed it every step of the way.

And 2 strokes SHOULD not idle on the stand for exactly the reason he stated.
I was also told by a very fast pro one time that having your 2 stroke not idle makes them brake better, any truth to that?
roughneck
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2/21/2012 12:52pm
Don't mix 50 50 gas..just run race gas..when you mix it with pump gas you just take from the reason you bought the race gas in the 1st place..

Talk to any motor builder and they will tell you not to mix crap gas with your race gas..its just stupid..
mxtech1
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2/21/2012 1:12pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
MXTech (Jeremy, is that you suspension guru?) nailed it every step of the way. And 2 strokes SHOULD not idle on the stand for exactly the...
MXTech (Jeremy, is that you suspension guru?) nailed it every step of the way.

And 2 strokes SHOULD not idle on the stand for exactly the reason he stated.
MtnBoy wrote:
I was also told by a very fast pro one time that having your 2 stroke not idle makes them brake better, any truth to that?
Somewhat true, but difficult to prove for the average rider. This theory goes back to how I explained the slide should be adjusted so it is closed and won't idle. When you shut the throttle completely closed, the slide will fall and starve the engine of air. On the stand, this would cause the engine to die. However, when the bike is in gear and going down the track, say you let off the throttle to enter the corner, the engine will not die because the rear wheel is now driving the engine through the chain. If you lock the rear wheel up for too long, the engine will stall as we all know.

If the engine is set to idle on a stand, when you release the throttle after say charging down a long straight, the engine returns to the idle RPM. At this idle RPM, HP & torque are still being made which drive the bike foward and are counteractive against the brakes being applied. This also makes the bike harder to lean and settle into the rut on entry. When the slide height is set correctly to not idle on the stand, when the rider shuts the throttle off the engine will only be running at the RPM at which the rear wheel is turning (keep in mind it's not a 1:1 ratio because of the tranny and it's much lower than and idling RPM - just enough to keep it sparking and burning the mixture being sucked in) and this is what helps because the engine is acting in unison with the speed of the wheel controlled by the rider. The engine is not fighting the brakes by trying to idle and produce power. You are basically coasting the engine until you release the brake and get back on the throttle.

Keep in mind there are alot of physics behind this and the changes would be very hard to notice unless you were a pro caliber rider or tester.
yzkrazy219
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2/21/2012 5:49pm
thanks guys! I just started riding two strokes so inexperience is coming into play here. The bike actually detonated to the point where it melted away part of the piston and the ring no longer had anything to ride on. It destroyed the cylinder and head. Quite a costly learning mistake for a bike that only had 8.5 hours on it.
yzkrazy219
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2/21/2012 5:51pm
Thanks guys! I just started riding two strokes so inexperience is coming into play here. The bike actually detonated to the point where it melted away part of the piston and the ring no longer had anything to ride on. It destroyed the cylinder and head. Quite a costly learning mistake for a bike that only had 8.5 hours on it.

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