CC vs CC "argument"

ccoady454
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ccoady454
Edited Date/Time 1/25/2012 8:43pm
I know that a lot of people think that the big 4 (maybe 5) are against cc for cc in pro sx/mx racing. I race amatuer where the rules already are set CC for CC, and race both a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke (RM 250 and KTM XC-W 450). I use my 2 stroke for MX and my 4 stroke for dual sport and enduro, but I am also a spectator of the pro races and would love the diversity and added riding style of a mix between both types of bikes.

Is there ANYONE on here that is against equal displacement rule for the pros? I'm not wanting the typical bickering session/debate that goes on or the reasons why manufacturers don't want it. I already know the myriad of reasons. So please, just answer the questions below honestly if you are against a rule change, as a fan, spectator or racer.

Why are you against this rule change?
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wardy
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wardy 4/26/2011 7:03am
4/26/2011 7:03am
Just be happy we have it in Amatuer.

it won't happen in pro. not profitable.

I don't spectate, so it's not an issue but I would be strongly for it and maybe my small little group would bother going to a national again Smile LOL
835
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835 4/26/2011 7:47am
4/26/2011 7:47am
As many 2 strokes as I see at the races says if they didn't do the rule then there wouldn't be many racers. Everyone I talk too says its all about the money they save by racing 2 yr old 2 strokes. I wish they would change the rules to give more options and maintain good racing.
ccoady454
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ccoady454 4/26/2011 7:52am
4/26/2011 7:52am
I'm grateful we have it in amateur, because I think it's one of the few things keeping the sport alive. We all know that MOST people buy what the pros ride, and the manufacturers sell what makes them the most money. I just wish that everyone wasn't in it for maximum profit. It seems like it all came down to economics. The accountants figured that if the more expensive (in the short run and long run) was made to be most competetive, then that would miximize profits, but it seems to only have killed the privateer in the pro ranks. It's almost like cheating by squeezing out all those good riders who just can't afford the sport. Speaking with your wallet is hard to do when the rules helped eliminate the bikes to spend the money on. The amatuer rule change came too late after the 4 stroke rule change caused the big 4 to focus on 4 stroke only.

Oh well, I wish I knew if there was ANYONE out there opposed to it other than sponsors and bike manufacturers. Any MX/SX fans or PRO/AM riders against it?
newmann
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newmann 4/26/2011 8:04am
4/26/2011 8:04am
I'm for it, for all the right reasons. Hard for me to understand why anyone would be against the far superior, lighter weight and less expensive to maintain 4 stroke(Whistling ) having to compete against the dinosaur of a 2 stroke on an even playing field.

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goonslurkin316 4/26/2011 8:38am
4/26/2011 8:38am
I'm for it as well. Loretta's allows me to ride the 2-stroke against 250f's, so why not the pro's? It kind of seems pointless to me to allow a rider such as myself the opportunity for my whole amateur career to ride a 250 2-stroke, but when you get to an elite level say you can't do that. I can't afford to buy 4-strokes and maintain them, period. It costs too much. I'm comfortable on a 2-stroke and switching to a 4-stroke would be somewhat difficult and I wouldn't be comfortable. It just doesn't make sense on why they just don't say okay you can do it. No top level manufactured pro is going to ride them, it won't damage the OEM's approval ratings because if the rider wanted to ride one that bad, they'd be on them throughout their amateur career. (Austin Howell comes to mind.) Mxsports and the AMA just needs to let the privateer's do it. Besides, no privateer is going to battle with a top-level factory rider regardless if the privateer is on a 2-stroke because their skill level isn't close, right?
huck
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huck 4/26/2011 8:41am
4/26/2011 8:41am
I think they should have a class for air cooler, twin rear shock bikes too.......

Might as well have a class for bikes with rock wheels.....
ccoady454
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ccoady454 4/26/2011 9:08am
4/26/2011 9:08am
huck wrote:
I think they should have a class for air cooler, twin rear shock bikes too.......

Might as well have a class for bikes with rock wheels.....
Who said anything about having separate classes?

The rules used to be 125cc - 250cc- open. What was wrong with that? They seem to change the name to suit the machine. When 4 strokes got the nod as the "premiere" bike, they changed the name to 250 and 450 class, but since you could no longer run a 250 2 stroke in the class called "250" they decided to change the name again since the rules were already changed. So now we got the lites class, with 250's, but only 4 stroke 250's.

Nobody on here has a legitimate reason?
Torco1
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Torco1 4/26/2011 9:11am
4/26/2011 9:11am
huck wrote:
I think they should have a class for air cooler, twin rear shock bikes too.......

Might as well have a class for bikes with rock wheels.....
Hell yeah, I've been saying this for years. Fuck that mono-shock shit.
ccoady454
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ccoady454 4/26/2011 9:11am
4/26/2011 9:11am
huck wrote:
I think they should have a class for air cooler, twin rear shock bikes too.......

Might as well have a class for bikes with rock wheels.....
P.S.

If Honda came out with an air cooled, twin shock 450 4-stroke, then it could be ran in the pro classes. There's no rule against that.
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seth505 4/26/2011 9:45am
4/26/2011 9:45am
huck wrote:
I think they should have a class for air cooler, twin rear shock bikes too.......

Might as well have a class for bikes with rock wheels.....
comparing 2011 2strokes to a bike with rock wheels and twin rear shocks...brilliant.
Do not pass go and may God have mercy on your soul.
huck
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huck 4/26/2011 9:53am
4/26/2011 9:53am
huck wrote:
I think they should have a class for air cooler, twin rear shock bikes too.......

Might as well have a class for bikes with rock wheels.....
seth505 wrote:
comparing 2011 2strokes to a bike with rock wheels and twin rear shocks...brilliant.
Do not pass go and may God have mercy on your soul.
Who was comparing 2011 2 strokes to rock wheels.

I was simply stating that it's time to move forward, and stop living in the past. Obviously, it was a little over your head. I'll keep my analogies a little simpler, going forward.
seth505
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seth505 4/26/2011 10:03am
4/26/2011 10:03am
huck wrote:
I think they should have a class for air cooler, twin rear shock bikes too.......

Might as well have a class for bikes with rock wheels.....
seth505 wrote:
comparing 2011 2strokes to a bike with rock wheels and twin rear shocks...brilliant.
Do not pass go and may God have mercy on your soul.
huck wrote:
Who was comparing 2011 2 strokes to rock wheels. I was simply stating that it's time to move forward, and stop living in the past. Obviously...
Who was comparing 2011 2 strokes to rock wheels.

I was simply stating that it's time to move forward, and stop living in the past. Obviously, it was a little over your head. I'll keep my analogies a little simpler, going forward.
Sorry I guess I read that wrong. I think we view it differently as riding 250 vs 250 shouldn't be considered "living in the past" it should be a progression (ya know to actually help the sport)
miedosoracing1 4/26/2011 10:07am
4/26/2011 10:07am
huck wrote:
I think they should have a class for air cooler, twin rear shock bikes too.......

Might as well have a class for bikes with rock wheels.....
seth505 wrote:
comparing 2011 2strokes to a bike with rock wheels and twin rear shocks...brilliant.
Do not pass go and may God have mercy on your soul.
huck wrote:
Who was comparing 2011 2 strokes to rock wheels. I was simply stating that it's time to move forward, and stop living in the past. Obviously...
Who was comparing 2011 2 strokes to rock wheels.

I was simply stating that it's time to move forward, and stop living in the past. Obviously, it was a little over your head. I'll keep my analogies a little simpler, going forward.
Not to mention the 4 strokes are the older in MX of the two. Who's living in the past now bitches? LOL
skidsteer16
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skidsteer16 4/26/2011 10:17am
4/26/2011 10:17am Edited Date/Time 4/26/2011 10:18am
I honestly don't think they should be.

The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is different.
queen of spodes 4/26/2011 10:19am
4/26/2011 10:19am
I'll be happy as long as I can continue buying parts for my rm125 and am able to afford driving to the tracks & riding. I've ridden a few YZ250f's and even a KX450f and they were fun I guess, but like the lighter weight of my rm. LOVE the sound of 125's pinned. I don't like the exhaust sound of four strokes as much.
queen of spodes 4/26/2011 10:20am
4/26/2011 10:20am
skidsteer16 wrote:
I honestly don't think they should be. The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is...
I honestly don't think they should be.

The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is different.
Which is why the yz400 should have been allowed in the 250 class years ago. Makes perfect sense!
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Sweendoggy 4/26/2011 10:33am
4/26/2011 10:33am Edited Date/Time 4/26/2011 10:34am
Hey GuyB, can you add a "throwing up" emoticon?

Four Strokes and Two Strokes are two completely different style of bikes. If anything they need to add a "2 stroke" class into the mix. I don't think a single fan would complain about having another class of racing to watch, plus it would be a great entry level class for the local guys who can't afford to maintain a competitive four stroke. Mixing the two engines together in one class is stupid, whether you handicap one or not. It's like having Kenyen's racing marathons with regular people...oh wait
teggers
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teggers 4/26/2011 11:06am
4/26/2011 11:06am
goonslurkin316 wrote:
I'm for it as well. Loretta's allows me to ride the 2-stroke against 250f's, so why not the pro's? It kind of seems pointless to me...
I'm for it as well. Loretta's allows me to ride the 2-stroke against 250f's, so why not the pro's? It kind of seems pointless to me to allow a rider such as myself the opportunity for my whole amateur career to ride a 250 2-stroke, but when you get to an elite level say you can't do that. I can't afford to buy 4-strokes and maintain them, period. It costs too much. I'm comfortable on a 2-stroke and switching to a 4-stroke would be somewhat difficult and I wouldn't be comfortable. It just doesn't make sense on why they just don't say okay you can do it. No top level manufactured pro is going to ride them, it won't damage the OEM's approval ratings because if the rider wanted to ride one that bad, they'd be on them throughout their amateur career. (Austin Howell comes to mind.) Mxsports and the AMA just needs to let the privateer's do it. Besides, no privateer is going to battle with a top-level factory rider regardless if the privateer is on a 2-stroke because their skill level isn't close, right?
Excellent.

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Ing
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Ing 4/26/2011 11:11am
4/26/2011 11:11am
100% for equal displacement. 100%
ccoady454
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ccoady454 4/26/2011 11:13am
4/26/2011 11:13am Edited Date/Time 4/26/2011 11:24am
Just think if the pros (yamaha and ktm) riders had a choice of bike depending on the track. They could ride a 4 stroke one week, and ride a 2 stroke another week if the conditions or forecast change. It would stil give the pros an advantage over the privateers, but still give the privateers a fighting chance monetarily.
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Mr. Ted 4/26/2011 11:43am
4/26/2011 11:43am
I see no downside (other than the big 4 whining about it) to allowing equal displacement. It would encourage and allow more people to be able to compete at the premier level. JMO.
miedosoracing1 4/26/2011 11:48am
4/26/2011 11:48am Edited Date/Time 4/26/2011 11:53am
Mr. Ted wrote:
I see no downside (other than the big 4 whining about it) to allowing equal displacement. It would encourage and allow more people to be able...
I see no downside (other than the big 4 whining about it) to allowing equal displacement. It would encourage and allow more people to be able to compete at the premier level. JMO.
4 bottles of OEM on the wall. 4 bottles of OEM, take one down... Big 3 and KTM. One of those big 4 fell to KTM. I'll bet a dollar that 2011-12 another will fall to them.

"Lead, Follow or get the F out of the way." KTM series sponsor for outdoor Pro MX.
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OW38B 4/26/2011 11:53am
4/26/2011 11:53am
skidsteer16 wrote:
I honestly don't think they should be. The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is...
I honestly don't think they should be.

The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is different.
Based on that premise........four strokes are inferior engines then.
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CR500Rider 4/26/2011 12:40pm
4/26/2011 12:40pm
skidsteer16 wrote:
I honestly don't think they should be. The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is...
I honestly don't think they should be.

The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is different.
OW38B wrote:
Based on that premise........four strokes are inferior engines then.
We have a winner!
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Shawn142 4/26/2011 12:47pm
4/26/2011 12:47pm
Some of you guys seem confused about how motorsports work. Racing at the top level is a running commercial. You see the best guys on the latest and greatest equipment, and that generates sales. There is a slight underlying pride thing but for the most part it's pretty much all money driven.

So what part of that rolling commercial is helped by running out products most of them don't even make anymore to compete against the only line they do sell? Would you as a cooperate employee of say Honda, who is driven more by sales than good racing, be happy about seeing a fast privateer run down your factory backed 250F rider on a bike you no longer even make? Would you maybe feel like you're not getting your money out of this industry anymore?

I see clowns all day long claim DC is in the OEMs pocket. Let's get something straight, without OEMs there is no damn pocket. There is no show, there is no racing.

Get OEMs to make 2-strokes again, then they'll be on the track racing at the pro level. Otherwise you're going at it totally backwards and blind.

For the record I suppose cc vs cc racing, but I'm not blind. I realize for me to enjoy racing that OEM has to make money.
skidsteer16
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skidsteer16 4/26/2011 12:55pm
4/26/2011 12:55pm Edited Date/Time 4/26/2011 1:15pm
skidsteer16 wrote:
I honestly don't think they should be. The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is...
I honestly don't think they should be.

The two engines operate on completely different principles and thus their average power output for a given displacement is different.
OW38B wrote:
Based on that premise........four strokes are inferior engines then.
CR500Rider wrote:
We have a winner!
Yeah, obviously...

I mean, just look at all the new cars, trucks, boats, airplanes, street bikes, lawn mowers, pressure washers, and generators with two-stroke engines...they are clearly superior. Come on guys.


Listen...to clarify, I don't think one is necessarily better than the other... but plain and simple, they should not compete against one another with equal displacement. And yes, I disagree with the amateur rule.
seth505
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seth505 4/26/2011 12:58pm
4/26/2011 12:58pm
Shawn142 wrote:
Some of you guys seem confused about how motorsports work. Racing at the top level is a running commercial. You see the best guys on the...
Some of you guys seem confused about how motorsports work. Racing at the top level is a running commercial. You see the best guys on the latest and greatest equipment, and that generates sales. There is a slight underlying pride thing but for the most part it's pretty much all money driven.

So what part of that rolling commercial is helped by running out products most of them don't even make anymore to compete against the only line they do sell? Would you as a cooperate employee of say Honda, who is driven more by sales than good racing, be happy about seeing a fast privateer run down your factory backed 250F rider on a bike you no longer even make? Would you maybe feel like you're not getting your money out of this industry anymore?

I see clowns all day long claim DC is in the OEMs pocket. Let's get something straight, without OEMs there is no damn pocket. There is no show, there is no racing.

Get OEMs to make 2-strokes again, then they'll be on the track racing at the pro level. Otherwise you're going at it totally backwards and blind.

For the record I suppose cc vs cc racing, but I'm not blind. I realize for me to enjoy racing that OEM has to make money.
You ever notice a car company that makes a car that the public does not want? Ya, they stop making it or go out of business. In order to succeed in any business you don't just make a product, you make a product that the market dictates.
ccoady454
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ccoady454 4/26/2011 1:17pm
4/26/2011 1:17pm
OW38B wrote:
Based on that premise........four strokes are inferior engines then.
CR500Rider wrote:
We have a winner!
skidsteer16 wrote:
Yeah, obviously... I mean, just look at all the new cars, trucks, boats, airplanes, street bikes, lawn mowers, pressure washers, and generators with two-stroke engines...they are...
Yeah, obviously...

I mean, just look at all the new cars, trucks, boats, airplanes, street bikes, lawn mowers, pressure washers, and generators with two-stroke engines...they are clearly superior. Come on guys.


Listen...to clarify, I don't think one is necessarily better than the other... but plain and simple, they should not compete against one another with equal displacement. And yes, I disagree with the amateur rule.
Or Chainsaws, weedwackers, outboard boat motors, snowmobiles, jet skis. These products don't fall into a category of RULES where the ones you listed have to follow EPA guidelines, MX bikes don't.

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