GNCC Finale - WOW!!!

3strokemx
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8 hours ago

The GNCC Championships have been wild and unpredictable, but only recently. 

In the past there were guys that would go on a campaign, winning multiple titles in a row, Summers, Hawk, Watts, Rodney Smith, Juha, Knight......


Do top 10 rider salaries go up when they are a title contender?  So more title contenders more high salaries.

Or do top 10 salaries go up when a dominant rider can command top dollar as a lock in to win, and that makes 2-5th place guy seem like a better value so their salaries go up too?

Or did they never go up and noone is making anything?

1
Not hillbilly
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8 hours ago
What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams...

What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams work.

TalinH112 wrote:
My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play...

My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play tactics and help undeserving people win championships. 🤷🏻

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins the championship. Is that what you’re saying?

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Beta480RX
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8 hours ago
What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams...

What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams work.

TalinH112 wrote:
My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play...

My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play tactics and help undeserving people win championships. 🤷🏻

Good or bad, that isn't how a single "team"/manufacturer operates. Not a one of them. Individual glory does not trump overall championship results.

Yamaha wanted KR to block/support/help Draper in any way he could to win that title for YAMAHA. Blu Cru could not have cared less about Kailub winning the race over Liam winning the title. If Yamaha had known ahead of time how it would have turned out they would have pulled a Honda/JMB or Kawasaki/Pourcel and parked KR. 

That being said, if Yamaha had tried to park him Kailub would have shown up on one of his old 350XCFs just to try to win because that is how the guy is wired.

This place comes unglued when team tactics comes into play, but it is a simple matter of fact that "team tactics" has "team" right in it. That's how it is expected, and that's how it works.

It doesn't play quite as much in dirt bikes as the manufacturer titles aren't pushed as much, but go to the tip of the spear and the manufacturer title is just as important as the individual drivers/riders title. For instance, Massimo Rivolia is resigned that Marc has won the MotoGP title already, but he did his job as Aprillia has won the Manufacturer's title. Same as Dall'igna can be happy about Marc, but rues that Bagnia rode like a rookie most of the season and Ducati didn't win the mfr title.

I can guarantee that Toto Wolff doesn't give a crap if Antonelli or Russell win the race, as long as Mercedes wins the mfr title in F1.

Funny how when team tactics aren't used it seems to ALWAYS cost the title for someone. Most recently before this event think of the messes Pro Circuit Kawi has gone through in 250SX with guys inadvertently taking each other out...

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TalinH112
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7 hours ago
What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams...

What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams work.

TalinH112 wrote:
My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play...

My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play tactics and help undeserving people win championships. 🤷🏻

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins...

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins the championship. Is that what you’re saying?

In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that he thought Ashburn was still right behind, as he had been most of the race. KR’s contract pays for Wins and Wins only. If Yamaha wanted him to lay up, they should pay him for getting second place IMO. 

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The Shop

TalinH112
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7 hours ago
What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams...

What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams work.

TalinH112 wrote:
My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play...

My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play tactics and help undeserving people win championships. 🤷🏻

Beta480RX wrote:
Good or bad, that isn't how a single "team"/manufacturer operates. Not a one of them. Individual glory does not trump overall championship results.Yamaha wanted KR to...

Good or bad, that isn't how a single "team"/manufacturer operates. Not a one of them. Individual glory does not trump overall championship results.

Yamaha wanted KR to block/support/help Draper in any way he could to win that title for YAMAHA. Blu Cru could not have cared less about Kailub winning the race over Liam winning the title. If Yamaha had known ahead of time how it would have turned out they would have pulled a Honda/JMB or Kawasaki/Pourcel and parked KR. 

That being said, if Yamaha had tried to park him Kailub would have shown up on one of his old 350XCFs just to try to win because that is how the guy is wired.

This place comes unglued when team tactics comes into play, but it is a simple matter of fact that "team tactics" has "team" right in it. That's how it is expected, and that's how it works.

It doesn't play quite as much in dirt bikes as the manufacturer titles aren't pushed as much, but go to the tip of the spear and the manufacturer title is just as important as the individual drivers/riders title. For instance, Massimo Rivolia is resigned that Marc has won the MotoGP title already, but he did his job as Aprillia has won the Manufacturer's title. Same as Dall'igna can be happy about Marc, but rues that Bagnia rode like a rookie most of the season and Ducati didn't win the mfr title.

I can guarantee that Toto Wolff doesn't give a crap if Antonelli or Russell win the race, as long as Mercedes wins the mfr title in F1.

Funny how when team tactics aren't used it seems to ALWAYS cost the title for someone. Most recently before this event think of the messes Pro Circuit Kawi has gone through in 250SX with guys inadvertently taking each other out...

I understand your point here, but KR’s contract pays for wins. If you are betting on a guy like Kalub to take your motorcycle to the top step, and only going to pay him if he does, don’t be surprised when that’s exactly what happens. 

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Beta480RX
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7 hours ago
TalinH112 wrote:
I understand your point here, but KR’s contract pays for wins. If you are betting on a guy like Kalub to take your motorcycle to the...

I understand your point here, but KR’s contract pays for wins. If you are betting on a guy like Kalub to take your motorcycle to the top step, and only going to pay him if he does, don’t be surprised when that’s exactly what happens. 

I agree with you completely here.

I put the onus for lack of communication on Yamaha here. Tell KR if you help Liam win and finish right behind him we pay you your win bonus (and maybe even a bit more).

Yamaha is dumb for thinking anyone of KR's caliber isn't full red mist during a race and wanting him to read a pit board to do the math and think of what he has to do to help. Same as it's on Mitch when his guys take each other out...

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FroDiddy
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What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams...

What’s the point of having a racing team if you don’t want them to race like a team? “Every man for himself” is not how teams work.

I have no qualms with how it all played out, but this is a valid point.

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Not hillbilly
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5 hours ago
TalinH112 wrote:
My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play...

My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play tactics and help undeserving people win championships. 🤷🏻

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins...

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins the championship. Is that what you’re saying?

TalinH112 wrote:
In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that...

In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that he thought Ashburn was still right behind, as he had been most of the race. KR’s contract pays for Wins and Wins only. If Yamaha wanted him to lay up, they should pay him for getting second place IMO. 

I stand corrected, then, about this team’s contracts. If they’re not incentivizing team performance, that’s on them. Still doesn’t make sense to me, though, and my original question stands: the team earned an event win but lost the title war due to their contracts focusing on individual wins. Another team gets to run the biggest win ad. Make it make sense.

TalinH112
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4 hours ago Edited Date/Time 4 hours ago
Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins...

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins the championship. Is that what you’re saying?

TalinH112 wrote:
In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that...

In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that he thought Ashburn was still right behind, as he had been most of the race. KR’s contract pays for Wins and Wins only. If Yamaha wanted him to lay up, they should pay him for getting second place IMO. 

I stand corrected, then, about this team’s contracts. If they’re not incentivizing team performance, that’s on them. Still doesn’t make sense to me, though, and my...

I stand corrected, then, about this team’s contracts. If they’re not incentivizing team performance, that’s on them. Still doesn’t make sense to me, though, and my original question stands: the team earned an event win but lost the title war due to their contracts focusing on individual wins. Another team gets to run the biggest win ad. Make it make sense.

Yeah I agree with you, seems it would behoove the manufacturers to place verbiage in these contracts that details exactly what should happen in these circumstances. Having said that, KR is a strong candidate for the title next year if he stays healthy. The guy is riding really well. 

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ML512
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4 hours ago
TalinH112 wrote:
My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play...

My opinion of having a “team” is to have multiple guys on the line who can win the races/championships on your equipment. Not necessarily to play tactics and help undeserving people win championships. 🤷🏻

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins...

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins the championship. Is that what you’re saying?

TalinH112 wrote:
In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that...

In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that he thought Ashburn was still right behind, as he had been most of the race. KR’s contract pays for Wins and Wins only. If Yamaha wanted him to lay up, they should pay him for getting second place IMO. 

Ashburn hadn't been behind KR for almost two hours. I don't think KR is that oblivious.

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TalinH112
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4 hours ago
Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins...

Just so I understand what you’re saying: a “team” should have multiple individuals who can possibly win races/championships, but not work together so the team wins the championship. Is that what you’re saying?

TalinH112 wrote:
In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that...

In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that he thought Ashburn was still right behind, as he had been most of the race. KR’s contract pays for Wins and Wins only. If Yamaha wanted him to lay up, they should pay him for getting second place IMO. 

ML512 wrote:

Ashburn hadn't been behind KR for almost two hours. I don't think KR is that oblivious.

I just said that’s what he stated after the race. If he honestly thought that or not, I couldn’t tell ya. I will say I race my brother in law quite a bit, and I know exactly where he is at all times! 😆

gt80rider
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3 hours ago
snillum wrote:
I feel sorry for Draper, but I'm with Kaleb on this one. "I'm paid to win". I don't care if it is a dirt bike, bicycle, car...

I feel sorry for Draper, but I'm with Kaleb on this one. "I'm paid to win". 

I don't care if it is a dirt bike, bicycle, car, or riding lawn mower race. If we are racing, I'm trying to win. 

Not if you racing LL's plus classes... every dood that ain't a former factory team pro is doing it for fun as they know they got zerooooooo shot of winning... 

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snillum
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3 hours ago
TalinH112 wrote:
In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that...

In this circumstance, yes. Had Liam been in a position of win and you’re champ, KR wouldn’t have passed him. After the race KR said that he thought Ashburn was still right behind, as he had been most of the race. KR’s contract pays for Wins and Wins only. If Yamaha wanted him to lay up, they should pay him for getting second place IMO. 

I stand corrected, then, about this team’s contracts. If they’re not incentivizing team performance, that’s on them. Still doesn’t make sense to me, though, and my...

I stand corrected, then, about this team’s contracts. If they’re not incentivizing team performance, that’s on them. Still doesn’t make sense to me, though, and my original question stands: the team earned an event win but lost the title war due to their contracts focusing on individual wins. Another team gets to run the biggest win ad. Make it make sense.

TalinH112 wrote:
Yeah I agree with you, seems it would behoove the manufacturers to place verbiage in these contracts that details exactly what should happen in these circumstances...

Yeah I agree with you, seems it would behoove the manufacturers to place verbiage in these contracts that details exactly what should happen in these circumstances. Having said that, KR is a strong candidate for the title next year if he stays healthy. The guy is riding really well. 

Does this cross the line for manufacturing the outcome of a race?

SPYGUY
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2 hours ago

Contingency money is intended for regular consumers. 

Team contracts generally state that the rider becomes ineligibly for contingency money and have their own structured payout.

For KR, his bonus money is apparently for wins only and we don't know what that amount is. I can assure you that it's more than $5k, however.

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TalinH112
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2 hours ago
I stand corrected, then, about this team’s contracts. If they’re not incentivizing team performance, that’s on them. Still doesn’t make sense to me, though, and my...

I stand corrected, then, about this team’s contracts. If they’re not incentivizing team performance, that’s on them. Still doesn’t make sense to me, though, and my original question stands: the team earned an event win but lost the title war due to their contracts focusing on individual wins. Another team gets to run the biggest win ad. Make it make sense.

TalinH112 wrote:
Yeah I agree with you, seems it would behoove the manufacturers to place verbiage in these contracts that details exactly what should happen in these circumstances...

Yeah I agree with you, seems it would behoove the manufacturers to place verbiage in these contracts that details exactly what should happen in these circumstances. Having said that, KR is a strong candidate for the title next year if he stays healthy. The guy is riding really well. 

snillum wrote:

Does this cross the line for manufacturing the outcome of a race?

If the scenario played out like it did this weekend, where KR finished first and Liam finished second legitimately, without taking anyone out or any funny business, then no I don’t think it is a manufactured result. Now if Kalub got to second and then started riding backwards and blocking guys or something like that then yes. 

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sailcpm
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25 minutes ago

I like KR, but i have to disagree he never saw the pit boards. The GNCC guys rely on those pit boards a lot for gaps. etc. And the story i saw was that the team was telling him for two laps before the finish multiple times. I get that he gets his bonus to win, and not second, and he is just naturally a fighter for wins, but Yamaha also pays him a salary, and they want championships. I have to imagine Yamaha is not too happy with him right now. Our sport is an individual sport, but at their level, it is a team sport too, and teams want championships. 
Just my two cents....

AMetts
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19 minutes ago Edited Date/Time 18 minutes ago
sailcpm wrote:
I like KR, but i have to disagree he never saw the pit boards. The GNCC guys rely on those pit boards a lot for gaps...

I like KR, but i have to disagree he never saw the pit boards. The GNCC guys rely on those pit boards a lot for gaps. etc. And the story i saw was that the team was telling him for two laps before the finish multiple times. I get that he gets his bonus to win, and not second, and he is just naturally a fighter for wins, but Yamaha also pays him a salary, and they want championships. I have to imagine Yamaha is not too happy with him right now. Our sport is an individual sport, but at their level, it is a team sport too, and teams want championships. 
Just my two cents....

They aren't looking at pit boards for gaps when he is on the leaders back wheel and he can hear a guy up his ass behind him.

KR won eight GNCC titles in a row I don't think in the big picture of his life he is going to lose much sleep that corporate Yamaha is mad at him for winning a race.

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truck
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5 minutes ago

To believe anything other than Russell just didn't care and wanted to win the race, you have to believe he missed multiple pit boards, didn't know before the race even started what the situation was, and didn't know where the relevant players were on the course. So your plausible choices here are Russell is very dumb, or he just didn't care and wanted to win the race. I don't think he's very dumb. 

I don't care either way. I generally like to see racers racing to win regardless of situation, but I also understand the teams wanting the titles. I just wish we'd stop dancing around it if that's what teams are after. Other sports make it very clear who the title guys are and what the team orders are for the others. Like so many other things, this sport is unnecessarily secretive about all of it and it just creates problems. 

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