Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes

CamP wrote:

The idea that motocross machines should continually be developed and improved is short sighted. Think of the cold war between the the US and the former...

The idea that motocross machines should continually be developed and improved is short sighted. Think of the cold war between the the US and the former Soviet Union. The arms race continued until someone went broke first. That's what's happening now in our little sport. The cost of the technology eventually has a negative impact on ridership in a sport that is supposed to be dominated by kids and young adults. If only vets can afford to buy and maintain the machines, the sport is lost. The other side of the coin is injury. If the machines develop to the point where half the beginners feel that a 100' jump is easy, there is going to be an increase of crippling injuries and deaths. I believe we are already at the point were the bikes are too good and there is more than just the cost of the machines that ultimately affects ridership. Most of the affluent people that can actually afford to pay for their children to race modern motocross, are smart enough to know that the likelihood of permanent injury or death is a real possibility so nobody should be surprised when the manufacturers sell less units and race turnouts get smaller and smaller.

If there was a voice of reason, it would tell us to quit sawing off the limb we are standing on.

jmar wrote:

The point that I am making is that a good deal of the people doing all the squawking are riding clapped out old bikes, and are...

The point that I am making is that a good deal of the people doing all the squawking are riding clapped out old bikes, and are not the type of moto enthusiast that buys a new bike every year or two.

BTW: I see no problems with the weekend enthusiast riding older bikes. In fact it makes a lot of sense.

The Rock wrote:

Willie Musgrave parked his CRF450R and bought a 2001 CR250 which has turned into a project/article for MXA. He's doing very well on it plus is...

Willie Musgrave parked his CRF450R and bought a 2001 CR250 which has turned into a project/article for MXA. He's doing very well on it plus is having a great time.



Dirt Bike's Ron Lawson just bought a KX125 for 700 bucks and is racing it in REM's new two stroke class



The Great Recession has turned the subject of two strokes vs four stokes from a endless emotional debate into a practical decision for some considering many racers are turning to two strokes to save money/continue being able to race.



Right about now would be a great time to tone down the local tracks so we don't continue losing riders/racers due to injuries but that's another story. The common theme(cheaper race options/lower risk tracks) is stopping the hemorrhaging of riders and turn this back into preferably a growth situation or worst case just maintain the participants we have now.




Seems to me we're at a juncture our sport hasn't seen before and what happens in the next two to three years will determine our long term future.

mxb2 wrote:

DC vs Newmann, cage match, winner makes this debate go away!

jmar wrote:

Honest question here.

How many of you die hard two stroke guys have bought a new bike in the last two years?

mooch wrote:

I don't think the answer to that question would be a fair representation of what kind of demand there may be for new-off- the-showroom floor 2...

I don't think the answer to that question would be a fair representation of what kind of demand there may be for new-off- the-showroom floor 2 strokes.

It's already been mentioned elsewhere...what motivation do buyers have to splurge on a new YZ250 when the 2011 model is not much different than the 2006 model? Unless a person is wealthy, at this point in time it makes sense to buy a lightly used YZ and use the money saved to put a few mods on the bike and freshen it up and still save money.

Sheesh, the 2011 YZ250's still don't even have updated plastic where the radiator shrouds wrap around the tank in order for tank graphics to have a chance to hold up for more than a few rides.

CamP wrote:

The idea that motocross machines should continually be developed and improved is short sighted. Think of the cold war between the the US and the former...

The idea that motocross machines should continually be developed and improved is short sighted. Think of the cold war between the the US and the former Soviet Union. The arms race continued until someone went broke first. That's what's happening now in our little sport. The cost of the technology eventually has a negative impact on ridership in a sport that is supposed to be dominated by kids and young adults. If only vets can afford to buy and maintain the machines, the sport is lost. The other side of the coin is injury. If the machines develop to the point where half the beginners feel that a 100' jump is easy, there is going to be an increase of crippling injuries and deaths. I believe we are already at the point were the bikes are too good and there is more than just the cost of the machines that ultimately affects ridership. Most of the affluent people that can actually afford to pay for their children to race modern motocross, are smart enough to know that the likelihood of permanent injury or death is a real possibility so nobody should be surprised when the manufacturers sell less units and race turnouts get smaller and smaller.

If there was a voice of reason, it would tell us to quit sawing off the limb we are standing on.

motogrady wrote:

Thing is, it's been 20 years of factory riders on the 4s. A whole generation has grown up wanting to be the next RC, the next...

Thing is, it's been 20 years of factory riders on the 4s.
A whole generation has grown up wanting to be the next RC, the next Stewart,
or whatever rider they want to emulate.

Stewart rides a 450f, Little Johnny wants a 450f.

Litte does he know, those guys are riding for a paycheck, they'll ride
whatever the boss tells him to.

Kill the supply, kill the allure, kill the insipration,slant the rules, and they will soon forget.
After 20 years of this, is it any wonder there's only 10% of 'em out there?

newmann wrote:

If Yamaha simply squirt molded some new styled plastics for a very minimal investment and upgraded the look of the aging YZ line, they could sell...

If Yamaha simply squirt molded some new styled plastics for a very minimal investment and upgraded the look of the aging YZ line, they could sell a whole lot of them. No one here can tell me it would require millions in retooling to redesign bodywork that would be shared between two bikes. If they didn't want to make the investment, just sub out a contract to Acerbis. Tank, shrouds, fenders,sidepanels and airbox. Maybe a new seat foam? That little bit would get people excited.

JB 19 wrote:

For the guys saying they can't find a new 2 stroke at a dealer........... http://www.cycletrader.com/...ults?type=Motorcycle|356953&zip=43302&radius=150&keyword=yz%20250&sort=year:desc I don't know why that link got screwed up, but...

For the guys saying they can't find a new 2 stroke at a dealer...........



http://www.cycletrader.com/...ults?type=Motorcycle|356953&zip=43302&radius=150&keyword=yz%20250&sort=year:desc


I don't know why that link got screwed up, but there are plenty of new YZ's to be bought at a good bit below retail in Ohio.

jmar wrote:

Honest question here.

How many of you die hard two stroke guys have bought a new bike in the last two years?

mooch wrote:

I don't think the answer to that question would be a fair representation of what kind of demand there may be for new-off- the-showroom floor 2...

I don't think the answer to that question would be a fair representation of what kind of demand there may be for new-off- the-showroom floor 2 strokes.

It's already been mentioned elsewhere...what motivation do buyers have to splurge on a new YZ250 when the 2011 model is not much different than the 2006 model? Unless a person is wealthy, at this point in time it makes sense to buy a lightly used YZ and use the money saved to put a few mods on the bike and freshen it up and still save money.

Sheesh, the 2011 YZ250's still don't even have updated plastic where the radiator shrouds wrap around the tank in order for tank graphics to have a chance to hold up for more than a few rides.

newmann wrote:

If Yamaha simply squirt molded some new styled plastics for a very minimal investment and upgraded the look of the aging YZ line, they could sell...

If Yamaha simply squirt molded some new styled plastics for a very minimal investment and upgraded the look of the aging YZ line, they could sell a whole lot of them. No one here can tell me it would require millions in retooling to redesign bodywork that would be shared between two bikes. If they didn't want to make the investment, just sub out a contract to Acerbis. Tank, shrouds, fenders,sidepanels and airbox. Maybe a new seat foam? That little bit would get people excited.

jmar wrote:

[i]If Yamaha simply squirt molded some new styled plastics for a very minimal investment and upgraded the look of the aging YZ line, they could sell...

If Yamaha simply squirt molded some new styled plastics for a very minimal investment and upgraded the look of the aging YZ line, they could sell a whole lot of them.

So what you are saying is, that what the plastic looks like is important to all of you hard core two stroke guys?

hellion wrote:

It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy...

It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy, and is set in his ways.

On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.

Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.

I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.

I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.

I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.

I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.

hellion wrote:

It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy...

It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy, and is set in his ways.

On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.

Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.

I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.

I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.

I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.

I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.

AZ35 wrote:

Classic!

Thanks for the laugh!

jmar wrote:

So what you are saying is that you want the OEMs to make some type of change to the bike, that would make no difference as...

So what you are saying is that you want the OEMs to make some type of change to the bike, that would make no difference as far as the performance, but would make you feel better about upgrading to a new bike? Is your ability level such, that you would override a new 2011 model?

No wonder the OEMs aren't that interested in the two strokes.

hellion wrote:

It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy...

It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy, and is set in his ways.

On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.

Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.

I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.

I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.

I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.

I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.

AZ35 wrote:

Classic!

Thanks for the laugh!

jmar wrote:

[i] Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl...

Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.

OK

It's not more exciting. In fact, the farther you go back, the less exciting it get's. Maybe you're just being a little to nostalgic. If you don't like pro racing today, then don't support it. There's plenty of the grass roots stuff every weekend at chickenlicks raceway. Two strokes can be purchased either new or used, and you can mix your gas, wear JT gear, and your world should be right again.

BTW: As DC said, the only place he hears all the two stroke stuff is on boards like this, where the numbers are small.

BadExample wrote:

Another ignorant and useless post.Simple answer to this is.. You have more 4 stroke in circulation nowadays because people are more exposed to them and are...

Another ignorant and useless post.Simple answer to this is.. You have more 4 stroke in circulation nowadays because people are more exposed to them and are more available.. Go to you dealerships.. a shitloads of 4 stroke.. 2-3 2 stroke hidden somewhere.. Of course.. you have the salesman trying to push you the koo-laid.. People are brainwashed to them because PRO racing are using them.. Open a magazine...here ya go 4 stroke everywhere.. yes the racing is less exciting .. JS is more fun to watch on any 2 stroke and this goes to every riders.. . 4 stroke are overweight, ugly and sound horrible. This is no nostalgia.. We just a bunch a people that like to think for themselves and know that four stroke are nothing but crap. We all know if the 2 stroke get more exposure/available to the public and AMA amend the unfair rules.. The 4 stroke new era will be gone tomorrow.

BadExample wrote:

Another ignorant and useless post.Simple answer to this is.. You have more 4 stroke in circulation nowadays because people are more exposed to them and are...

Another ignorant and useless post.Simple answer to this is.. You have more 4 stroke in circulation nowadays because people are more exposed to them and are more available.. Go to you dealerships.. a shitloads of 4 stroke.. 2-3 2 stroke hidden somewhere.. Of course.. you have the salesman trying to push you the koo-laid.. People are brainwashed to them because PRO racing are using them.. Open a magazine...here ya go 4 stroke everywhere.. yes the racing is less exciting .. JS is more fun to watch on any 2 stroke and this goes to every riders.. . 4 stroke are overweight, ugly and sound horrible. This is no nostalgia.. We just a bunch a people that like to think for themselves and know that four stroke are nothing but crap. We all know if the 2 stroke get more exposure/available to the public and AMA amend the unfair rules.. The 4 stroke new era will be gone tomorrow.

gaines1016 wrote:

i think youre in second place for the most assanine posts in this thread. keep up the good work. 4 strokes are ugly? really? this is...

i think youre in second place for the most assanine posts in this thread. keep up the good work.

4 strokes are ugly? really? this is what we are down to now.

jmar wrote:

[b]Another ignorant and useless post[/b].Simple answer to this is.. You have more 4 stroke in circulation nowadays because people are more exposed to them and are...

Another ignorant and useless post.Simple answer to this is.. You have more 4 stroke in circulation nowadays because people are more exposed to them and are more available.. Go to you dealerships.. a shitloads of 4 stroke.. 2-3 2 stroke hidden somewhere.. Of course.. you have the salesman trying to push you the koo-laid.. People are brainwashed to them because PRO racing are using them.. Open a magazine...here ya go 4 stroke everywhere.. yes the racing is less exciting .. JS is more fun to watch on any 2 stroke and this goes to every riders.. . 4 stroke are overweight, ugly and sound horrible. This is no nostalgia.. We just a bunch a people that like to think for themselves and know that four stroke are nothing but crap. We all know if the 2 stroke get more exposure/available to the public and AMA amend the unfair rules.. The 4 stroke new era will be gone tomorrow.

BadExample wrote:

Another ignorant and useless post.Simple answer to this is.. You have more 4 stroke in circulation nowadays because people are more exposed to them and are...

Another ignorant and useless post.Simple answer to this is.. You have more 4 stroke in circulation nowadays because people are more exposed to them and are more available.. Go to you dealerships.. a shitloads of 4 stroke.. 2-3 2 stroke hidden somewhere.. Of course.. you have the salesman trying to push you the koo-laid.. People are brainwashed to them because PRO racing are using them.. Open a magazine...here ya go 4 stroke everywhere.. yes the racing is less exciting .. JS is more fun to watch on any 2 stroke and this goes to every riders.. . 4 stroke are overweight, ugly and sound horrible. This is no nostalgia.. We just a bunch a people that like to think for themselves and know that four stroke are nothing but crap. We all know if the 2 stroke get more exposure/available to the public and AMA amend the unfair rules.. The 4 stroke new era will be gone tomorrow.

jmar wrote:

Honest question here.

How many of you die hard two stroke guys have bought a new bike in the last two years?