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Edited Date/Time
1/27/2012 5:04pm
...got me thinking - would it even work on a motocross bike? In motocross, we're constantly spinning the rear and we're even occasionally locking up the front, especially over braking bumps - how would a traction control be able to differentiate between intentional "wheelspin" over jumps or spinning the rear to help save the clutch, and unwanted wheelspin? When we lock up the front over a braking bump, the traction control would "think" the bike stopped - how would you deal with that? And overall, the wheelspin we create in motocross is much more sudden and momentary than what happens on a road racing bike - could you ever figure out how to selectively filter out all the desired wheelspin and let the engine run normally then, but flatten out the power when we have unexpected and unwanted wheelspin? Besides that, on the human level, motocross is all ABOUT managing wheelspin - everything the rider instinctively does would have to somehow be rewired in his brain to take his new copilot into account.
I can see it used for a start, when things are more predictable, but I think it would make a bike unrideable otherwise.
And for the record, if a team was going to cheat, they wouldn't be so blatant that a guy could see illegal parts on TV. It's idiotic to think L&M would do that. And James has gotten one holeshot in four tries this year, obviously if they were using some kind of launch control, it's not working for crap. That whole accusation is silly.
I can see it used for a start, when things are more predictable, but I think it would make a bike unrideable otherwise.
And for the record, if a team was going to cheat, they wouldn't be so blatant that a guy could see illegal parts on TV. It's idiotic to think L&M would do that. And James has gotten one holeshot in four tries this year, obviously if they were using some kind of launch control, it's not working for crap. That whole accusation is silly.
Besides all that - in motocross we intentionally break the rear end loose in corners to make the bike pivot. How would they sense that and allow the engine to run normally when you're doing that? Gyroscopic sensors?
Much ado over nothing...
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Just because some skid their tires into braking bumps doesn't mean they are supposed to. They would stop faster at the limit of traction as opposed to just skidding. You can see a real life example of this if you have ever driven on ice. If you began to skid you have no traction at all. Where-as if you modulate you can maintain some traction.
Also, TC would not mean no more roost at all although presumably it might mean less.
put one on a CR 500 thats where its needed
Once they determine what works for the riders, they can tune the engine to what they want it to perform by advancing, retarding the timing, fuel flow, etc... this type of system is common in the auto racing world from the pro's to club level ranks. Ever wonder why that kid in his Honda just blew off a Corvette? Fuel mapping and tuning the EFI system in simple terms. This has been going on years and it's now just reaching the MX world..
Not only can this system be used to tune engine performance, the rider and engineer can also determine if he needs to slow down or to go fast by using this data acquired. So it can be used as a rider coach/guide for intent of purposes.... as if James needs it LOL.
The team is just taking advantage of the technologies available and reading between the lines of the rule book. Good for them, James and Larry are competitive and they are looking at everything possible to win. Happens in every form of motor sports.
The only way the AMA can control this is to hire a data engineer to look at every riders data downloads after every session or have spec black boxes for all the bikes. I don't see this happening, so welcome to the world of EFI on motorcycles.
I've done a lot of work with all kinds of control systems, from big natural gas terminals to gas turbines, and they're not easy to set up and tune even when the variables are limited. With the huge number of variables and operating requirements of a TC system for motocross, I just don't see how you'd get it to work properly. The best TC system is hanging off the rider's right arm. You'll never make one that works better than that. Road racing with more limited variables, slower processes and fewer "operating modes", yes; motocross, no.
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Off the start if your front wheel lifted the slightest bit and slowed down, why whouldn't the computer think the back wheel is spinning and slow the bike?
Through a rythem section a lot of riders hit the throttle before landing to get a boost for the next jump. The back wheel "spins" faster and easier in mid air. Would you want your ignition timing retarded or fuel cut off when you landed and actually need the power for the next jump?
What if you wanted to lock up the rear wheel in the air to get the front end down? Anti lock brakes would prevent this. Let alone how would a computer know if your jumping or cornering.
Whoops? I think there is a lot of wheel spin going wide open through a whoop section. Again would you want ignition timing retarded in the middle of a whoop section? I'd actually be interested to see data on how a back tire spins through a whoop section.
How would a traction control system work in mud?
I'm pretty sure anniebertmojo hit the nail on the head with the current use of the wheel speed sensors.
Also, before A1 there was all the talk about the Launch control system on Villopoto's bike. That was probably a direct result of them using similar technologies.
Just my two cents...
I think the AMA knows that if they allow full data systems during competition, then it will lead to some form of electronically controlled traction system. I believe this is how it went down on the road racing side.
Truth is, TC won't help as much in SX, but it could be a slight advantage.
Also, there are AWD vehicles that use traction control, so the "undriven wheel" input isn't making sense to me.
For a series concerened about equalizing the money spent and concerns for the teams spending money it seems a little crazy they would allow this can of worms to get opened.
The system is pretty economical from a data world aspect but the hardware isn't the biggest expense. Having the staff to use the data is much larger investment. A good data guy in car world is a $80K/year guy.
TC was very possible using what they had on the bike last night and the idea that they were just logging data for "future use" seems a little hard to believe. Funny how they chose to run it at a track that is dry,slick and has little forward bite...but I'm sure I am just being cynical...
Is TC possible? Well it could be. But tracking front and rear wheel speeds along with engine data would be difficult IMO w/out sensors everywhere on a race weekend and prying eyes everywhere. But what they could be doing is looking at the data from practice, heat races, main, and from past practice days (not at the races where they can put sensors on the bike) and gathering data to apply that day at that races. We know that you can track all this data, and more and more riders are using helmet cams. You could? overlay the data with a go-pro? Maybe, it's very common in auto racing. AIM systems has something like this.
So... What type of data are they gathering? Who knows... but if I guessed most likely engine speed (RPM), gear selection, throttle position, rear wheel speed, and HP/Torque curves.
So TC?... Maybe in a very small form, but it's all within the gray area of the rules. Meaning what they are most likely doing is moving the power delivery around so the hit isn't as bad and making it more manageable in slow corners (or specific corners identified as a problem and how can we maximize performance over the competition). And though data, they could use this to maximize the engine's torque curve. Example, when James throttle position is at 30% in a slow corner they could tune the engine to be at the start of the torque curve to minimize the wheel spinning. JS would also know through looking at past data (and current) he needs to be in 3rd gear instead of 2nd. As he ramps up the throttle (and shifting gears), i.e. twisting it to the moon, they can also change the power delivery too what ever he wants it to do. And by gathering data over testing, practice, etc... they have an information base to alter what engine settings to maximize performance to whatever he desires to achieve whatever needed .
I've worked with engine data and chassis data guys in auto racing for years. It's common in my world and what these guys do is sometimes mind blowing in terms of performance. As I said before, welcome to EFI. And hopefully the AMA gets on the ship sooner then later. And if they don't this will open up a whole can of worms more then ever before and costs will rise even more.
After reading this article on a subject I had zero knowledge of, I realize I have no idea of the technologies that are available in this age. Take a few minutes and read it through. This isn't all about simple wheel sensors. Read it.
As we look around us and everyday all of us talk on cell phones that allow us to browse the internet, we sit here and act like there isn't some truly amazing shit available to those with the money. I'm not saying San Manuel is cheating, but I never considered traction control in MX an issue before today. Reading this article tells me it is completely plausible and probably undetectable if the desire is to hide it.
It's hysterical that some posted pictures of roost as proof of no traction control though. If you could reduce wheel spin in a "controlled" manner (hence traction CONTROL) you would effectively increase traction. Reduce wheel spin, not eliminate it. The best riders have awesome throttle control. Imagine being able to increase upon K-Dub's throttle control by another 20% or 25% through a computer. That would be pretty sick. Again, not saying anyone is using it, but it is is very plausible and it definitely would be an advantage everywhere except in near perfect traction. On a track like Phoenix, it would be huge.
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/AMA-RULE-OF-THE-WEEK-WHERE-ART-…
Traction Control could just be taking the edge off the 450's when they are exiting corners & helping with starts, if all it did was catch the rear wheel when it skips in the air off a bump out of a corner, that'd be worth it I reckon.
Regarding GPS, sure it's accurate to inches ( they could easily be using differential GPS, ie one nearby in a fixed location & use that location to remove any artificial inaccuracy put there by the GPS sat owners ), but the real killer is frequency of updates, even at 5 updates a second ( & good luck finding a gps that quick ) @ 30mph that's an update every roughly every 7 feet, if it's one update a second, it's ever 35 feet. So it's only really useful for big blocks of sections ( unless you hook in a motion sensor & speed sensor on the front wheel & do a combo ).
The GPS could however be triggering different EFI maps or changing the ignition depending where you are on the track, handy for the whoops maybe ??, I doubt it's accurate enough for corner vs straight, I'd be prepared to have a go programming it, but how big a difference does it have to be, shifting the map 5% would give one rider an edge & I'd think small movements would also be less jarring & give more confidence to the rider.
Then again, maybe it is just data acquisition, but can someone tell me how you would ever know, because if it was me, you'd better believe the software running during the race would be different from what came off the track ( have someway of flashing the firmware & clearing any evidence of the flash based on an external trigger, but keep the acquired data, I'd go for a button under the tank personally & change it to some other functionality with the off track firmware ).
The factories have had the technology for a while. They used it on 2 strokes and it became illegal because of the cost so they eliminated it to keep the playing field "level". Yeah right!
Too many couch racers ran with what was said on Phoenix's race broadcast. If you go back and listen to what J-Bone said, he said that the 7 was pushing the limits. So that makes me think that if it isn't traction control, then its data acquisition which is legal in SX in 2011. So until there's a protest or an outside party doing inspection(bc there is NO WAY JS7 will get dq'd, he's the golden child)we will never know!
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