Posts
1092
Joined
12/19/2009
Location
Westfield, MA, USA
Edited Date/Time
2/5/2012 11:12am
It seems like the hip thing to do to bash Jody and MXA these days. He's older than the other current editors, seems to be grouchy, and is set in his ways.
On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.
Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.
I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.
I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.
I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.
I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.
On the other hand he lives for Moto, still races and rides weekly, and has vast experience with the machinery we ride and the people who are responsible for building it. Plus he is not afraid to speak his mind regardless of who he offends.
Lately he has really been pushing the two stroke issue. He has been in the sport longer than just about anyone, has seen where it's been, and has a good idea about where it's going. I applaud him for using his voice to make a difference. For a long time I've thought this two stroke vs. four stroke argument was futile. The four stroke was being crammed down out throats and there was nothing we could do about it. But these threads keep popping up more and more regularly, and more and more two strokes keep showing up at the tracks and trails. Surely the manufacturers must be feeling the sting of decreased sales. KTM can't keep their two stroke line in stock though. Is anyone paying attention at the wheel.
I see now that the main problem is the AMA, and their resistance to change a simple rule. Sure, all the manufacturers would have a fit at first, but ten years from now when the sport is growing again they will see this as a landmark moment in our sports history. Make the 450 class a true 450 class, two strokes and four strokes up to 450 cc's. The same with the 250's. And for gods sake bring back the 125 class. Kids moving off 85's onto 250f's makes so little sense it's unbelievable.
I'm dating myself here, but when I was coming up we used to have four classes. 100's, 125's, 250's, and open. And all the experts raced all the classes. Bikes were relativeley cheap, and you'd race half the year in 100's and 250's, and the other half on 125's and open's. And you know what? The 100's were a freaking blast to race. Sure they were slow, but man you had to wring that thing out and be real creative and smart with line choice and race craft. You should have seen JoJo Keller make a 100 go, and he was a pretty big boy even then. The racing was both affordable and exciting to watch or participate in.
I know Steve Matthes is working at Racer X again and he probably likes his job and doesn't want to piss Davey off too much. But I've even heard him complain that four strokes have ruined racing. And he's just talking about it as a pure spectator. He is so right. Go on youtube and look up any race from the 90's and tell me it's not way more exciting than todays racing where they crawl through the corner and then blast off leaping the whole straight. Watch Reed ride his YZ250 and appreciate an awesome display of talent, or RC just flogging his KX and swapping and bucking and never letting off. You can't ride a 450 like that, you'd get splattered. It makes the racing boring when there is only one guy (JS) willing to hang onto a 450 on the limit.
I guess that if we speak with our wallets we can eventually effect a change here. But it will be slow and the sport will suffer greatly in the meantime. The AMA could make the change happen a lot faster, but do they have the balls? I doubt it.
Hope the manufacturers eventually pull their head out of their asses.
But having said that you can't go and blame the AMA alone for the 4 stroke dominance. Ultimately it comes to what people choose to buy. I believe the 250 2 stroke is legal in amateur AMA competition... if that's right and the 2 stroke is so much better than it's 250f counterpart, then people need to take advantage and start racing them more. It's a choice.
The AMA has hindered 2 strokes in professional competition but truth be told, I don't think many, if any, of the current racers would choose a 2 stroke ahead of a 4 stroke, even if they had a choice and comparative cc.
I know it's not a popular thing to say but 4 strokes are able to do certain things inherently better than 2 strokes, regardless of cc. They hook tremendously well and that's just something that can't be replicated with a 2 stroke. Of course they have their advantages too but - the traction thing is a major one. Look MXA's YZ 250 vs YZ 250F comparison... when you consider the HP deficit it's amazing the 4 stroke is able to hold it's own anywhere at all but as I said, the few advantages it has are the important ones.
I also don't think the difference in racing is down to the 4 strokes but rather the track designs. I said this in another thread but the tendency in the track designs these days favour towards speed (the same is also becoming true outdoors) because the faster it looks, then the more spectacular it is to people that don't ride i.e it's easier to promote. When a more technical, traditional SX track is designed by one of the current riders e.g Reed (Indy) Pastrana (St Louis) Larocco, Windom etc, they almost always produce good racing.
Amateurs can still race 2 strokes in the big bike classes because they are structured by max displacement. From my experience in D17, most of the riders are still choosing to ride a 4 stroke. It doesn’t help that only KTM and Yamaha make 2 strokes. Good luck finding a new Yamaha 2 stroke. From what I hear the dealers each get 1 or 2 for the year. My son made the decision last year to swap his 250F for a clean 2005 250 2 stroke and extremely happy that he made the change. So is my wallet.
It’s unlikely that Matthes will push the 2 strokes. I have heard him say many times that the people voted with their wallet and got what they asked for, there is no turning back. While his statement is true, the swing from 2 strokes to 4 strokes took place when the economy was booming. Now we are stuck.
The people that really want a 2 stroke will buy them used and rebuild them as needed. The days of these riders buying a new bike every year or 2 are gone. They will just keep rebuilding their old bike. New bike sales will continue to suffer. The magazines would do well by adding a "Keeping the Smoke Alive" section to each months publication.
Riders choose to not buy two strokes purely because the rules make them uncompetitive.
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I could be wrong though and confused.
Four stroke making racing boring though? Totally subjective, riders can shred through corners just as hard on four strokes as two strokes. 250Fs are ridden like 125's now.
Two strokes are rad though. No doubt.
And as I said there are other differences/advantages between the two that have nothing to do with the rules.
So now its the AMA's fault? Now it's somehow my fault? I had a newspaper back then. Maybe everyone should go back and read the gushing magazine stories about Yamaha's development of four-strokes back then and talk to the people who pushed so hard for their inclusion and their ultimate dominance.
DC
MX Sports
Would a 125cc regional for SX be a good thing? And wouldn't a six round 125cc outdoor national championship on the off weekends of the WMA races be a good thing. Limited travel schedule, limited budget, limited to no "works" parts could be good for the sport. I would personally put a bike out there.
And lastly, although I've seen some undeserved, piss poor comments thrown at you, the overwhelming majority of people here look up to you as one of the good guys, one of "us".
Let's face it, if the AMA had not written the rule to allow 4-strokes double the displacement in the first place, we wouldn't be having this ongoing argument, and 4-strokes would be relegated to trail bikes and the Glen Helen 4-stroke 'World Championship' race once a year.
MXA blaming DC equally is only valid to the point that with DC running the outdoor series now, he has the power to change the rule that allows the 4-strokes up to a 100% displacement advantage. By not changing the rule back to giving the 2-stroke equal displacement, then DC is only guilty of continuing the charade, not of causing it.
For the record, I subscribe to both MXA and RacerX, so my money gets split equally between both points of view!
I have been working on many ideas on different concepts, but only for outdoors. SX has a good show going on right now and it was a really positive sign for the industry that Anaheim was such a big success in sheer numbers of riders and fans.
DC
MX Sports
Keep it basic. Limited series. Maybe an age restriction - say 16-18 years old to fill the void created by the new age limit on Pro licences. Pipe, jetting, suspension and cockpit changes only. Maybe a tyre sponsor for the series running a control tyre like they do at SuperX for the juniors.
Any thoughts on this DC?
Question on straight-up racing in the 250 class: how woold Mike Alessi do in the 250 class on a factory KTM two-smoke? I am afraid the answer would not be good for racing, but it would be great for #800.... That's the real conundrum. Some think it will even the playing field, but I am afraid it would give others a distinct advantage, and then the factories that still make and market two-strokes in America would have an overwhelming advantage.
Just my two cents.
DC
MX Sports
http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/YOUTHSTREAM-ISSUES-AN-ADDEN…
Kinda like the 4-strokes have now?
Why not just try having the 250 class outdoors be a 250cc class regardless of strokes. I think the only manufacturer who doesn't make a 250 two stroke anymore is Honda. The others do, they just don't import them. Maybe they are too big to care, but KTM is sure liking the profits of having current two stroke technology.
Also, seeing a 125 class at a national level may be asking too much, but I think it would be worth looking at. Even as a half time show to show off some young regional schoolboy talent.
Pit Row
Would be good way to test the water and would go down well with the fans.
edit: Note to self... must remember to read the thread in its entirety before posting.
on a side note. DC thanks for all you do for the sport, your efforts and passion for the sport dont go unnoticed.
Thanks, DC, for everything!
FIM have set up rules to make riders move on to the MX1-class, and I dislike that. Why would a small light guy be punished for winning? Makes no sense to me.
What we see in the fourstroke vs twostrokes debate is a mix of nostalgic feelings for something that has changed, but we also see our sport getting more and more expensive. I understand that supercross and motocross exist under different conditions. A limited field of proriders i SX and the business around that isn't depending on a large number of active riders. They get their time on TV and spectators come to watch it inside a stadium.
Motocross on the other hand as I know it is very depending of the amateur riders and their wallets. Most of the spectators are riders themselfes or ex-riders. If the sports get to expensive it will take away the base for some of the manufacturers, lot's of dealers, tracks and ultimately MX Sports business idea and also this wonderful forum to hang out at. I'm afraid fourtstrokes will do that because when their engines fail it often puts an amateur out of business so to speak.
If not for the sake of their sound, or the boring but fast and dangerous racing the create so for the economical perspective.
Real Motocross people don't give a rat's ass whose to blame anymore, we just
want it fixed . And some parity mandated.
250'cc's of any mechanical design belong together.
It's the right thing to do and will permit PRIVATEERS a fighting chance without
putting them in debt for life.
Being realistic, Mitch's bikes will still reign, we all know that, but , for our sport, it's
way past time that the 4 strokes advantage be leveled.
Post a reply to: Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes