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Your comparison doesn’t work. The 450 Pros are not actively trying to land on the 50 riders. ICE is actively escalating and antagonizing. Purposely using more force, more cruelty than necessary.
What you are seeing is exactly the tyrannical government action your 2A was written for, and you‘ve chosen to side with the administration perpetuating it.
Deporting illegals is not the issue, Obama deported many, many more than Trump has, but it was done in an orderly, much more humane fashion. Deportation is not what’s causing the push back, it’s the brutality. You guys seem to get off on it, it’s gross
"ICE is actively escalating and antagonizing. Purposely using more force, more cruelty than necessary."
Blah blah blah...... it takes two to tango. Did lib politicians in cities all over the country refuse to cooperate with Obama or no? Did do gooders organize online to try to disrupt Obama's deportations or no? Trump made it pretty clear what he was going to do and TDS politicians and losers everywhere have responded by making sure it's as difficult for them to do as possible. If you want it to look like it did during the Obama administration, behave like you did during the Obama administration.
If you only think one side of the aisle sucks on this one you're part of the problem.
So you think ICE is the one who is "actively escalating and antagonizing"?
Or is ICE reacting to the agitators (not protestors) who are actively escalating and antagonizing the ICE agents as they follow them around blowing whistles, screaming, honking, threatening, blocking access, and throwing things at the ICE agents.
If the agitators would not do any of those things, do you really believe that the ICE agents would still retaliate?
It is a fucked up situation, but if the people would just let ICE do their job none of this would have happened.
No, ICE were the ones who rolled in with violent tactics and covered faces. People reacted, ICE ramped up.
Just like this shooting. Ice rolls in, people, now aware of the brutality, begin filming and blowing whistles, warning others. ICE escalates, shoving and pepper spraying a person who was not a threat to them in any way. Pretti attempts to protect the woman. They kill him.
If the ICE officer had simply done his job and not decided to use violence against the woman, none of this would have happened.
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The Trump administration, was left with a immigration mess of epic proportions, like has never been seen in this countries history. Not to mention the ramping up by the media and the far left. So the Obama comparison doesn’t fit, not even remotely the same situation other than the deportation aspect. I think you’re way off base as to who is actually escalating this situation. ICE certainly isn’t perfect and it’s plain to see that some individuals/ ICE officers have zero business being ICE officers. The fact remains that the former administration really screwed this up and it has to be cleaned up now. So far 2 have died by interfering with an imperfect process. But in this process, lives have more than likely been saved already by getting some of these thugs out of our country. It’s a dirty job , but it needs to be done.
ICE wants to create terror, because you can either have authority by respect, or by terror, but governments usually want to do this. I believe they just need an excuse to exert violence. At some point it was people of certain skin colour. Then people who were illegals. They are running out of excuses.
The only two real sides are good people and bad people. You should give them their respective treatment. I believe this guy wasn't part of the second group....
People are out protesting because of the way Ice was doing its job. This isnt a chicken and egg deal. Ice doing stuff that got people riled up started the people protesting. Had Ice kept doing things the way they had been for years it may not have gotten to this point.
I was watching a little tv news lastnight. Not nameing the channel to hopefully help avoid anybodies biases. But they had a geust comenting on the situation and they were saying that ICE has 0 training on crowd control and engagement with protestors.
I think that really needs to change.
The expert geust suggested that local law enforcement should be following ICE to keep protesters safe . To keep ice and the protesters seperated.
I can see that as being reasonable. But also a little crazy. That there should be a need for local police to protect people from federal law enforcement.
What happens when an ICE agent decideds to pepper spray somebody blowing a whistle and the local police officer is now in the place of the guy that was just killed. Between ICE and the protesters.
Blowing a whistle and making noise is a normal protesting thing. Local police shouldnt be expected to stop people making noise. Would ice stop engageing protesters if local police were there?
Or would the local police find themselves in the middle and restraining both protesters who are throwing stuff and ICE agents who go after people blowing whistles. I believe that unless ICE changed how they behave that adding local pd to the mix would result in even more of a shit show.
Ice agents could ignore the people yelling and blowing whistles right? Now if the lady that was blowing the whistle was throwing things at the agents that would change things a little in my opinion. But if she was never physical than ICE escalated a situation instead of descalating it.
And the other thing people that are protesting are unhappy with is that the ICE agent or agents who shot this guy are very likley not going to be punished at all and the people leading ICE will just defend his actions with exagerations and outright lies. That also gets people worked up.
The lefts resistance to ICE is all about deporting their voters..
Anyone see that video of Frey dancing like a clown for the Somalian’s? So embarrassing..
Their tactics changed because cities stopped cooperating with them. When local police transfer people to ICE without a fuss then ICE doesn't have to go looking for them. When politicians get behind a podium and proudly declare they aren't going to do that anymore and forbid their officers from doing the things the way they did it when Obama was asking, then ICE has to change their tactics. And unfortunately to do that they've resorted to putting wildly under trained officers on the street.
Again, both sides suck. Both sides do not give a single fuck about either of the people killed or the ICE officer who's life is now over. Both sides suck. If you can only see how one side sucks you're part of the reason both sides suck.
You constantly return to your tribal and partisan instincts in almost every post by stating a “side”.
This is way beyond left or right at this point. It’s an American issue. It’s a really lazy and myopic way to frame your comments.
It’s hard to take your comments seriously when it’s always framed as Liberal vs conservative. It’s citizens vs the government. And quite frankly that is always how it is regardless of what party is in power.
Look I've voted for trump 3x, but ice is what has turned me away and his shitty economic policies. But that's besides the point. A guy was executed yesterday, shot in the back 11 god damn fucking times. The right says oh he had a gun, well he legally was carrying the gun do you believe in 2A or only when it fits the narrative you want it to?
The video of the other agent fucking clapping after shots ring out is fucking sickening.
"Citizens"
Such an interesting word choice here. Guess it only means something when it's helpful.
Well if things go like the other shooting the agents life isnt over. And he will be defended by the people in charge.
If he is held accountable for his actions than that would be a step in the right direction. With some sort of public acknowledgement by the leaders at ICE that he was not doing what he was supposed to be doing. That would help desclaye things and be the correct thing to do. In your opinion as well as mine.
But if this is like any of the other unkustified uses of force they wilp demonize the man that was shot and praise the ICE agent for acting the way they did. And thats not ok. That type of thing is what triggered all of the BLM protests that escalated into riots.
And the Democrats and local police should also make statments saying that protesters should not throw things or get between agents and the people being deported.
I havnt seen any video that would suggest that the actions of the protester were out of line. And definatly nothing that the guy that was shot did that justified shooting him. He was standing videotaping with both hands up. Short of not protesting i dont see how things would be differnt for him. He had a gun but never did anything with it.
The Ice agents paniced doing stuff they are not trained to do.
This is a manufactured dance. Any level of engagement, especially so when one has chosen a side, only serves to provide validity to the core principles behind it.
Which are: to remove personal and individual autonomy from the citizens of America. Bush did it, Obama did it, Biden did it, and Donald is doing it. They did it at an administrative level, but only Donald has a strong enough 'the cult of personality' to carry such things out on a cultural in-your-face and on the streets level. Donald is an enforcer and carrying out what the diplomats have failed to do.
The only beneficiary of this manufactured chaos is The State and its increased legitimacy in claiming the right and control over your individual liberty and what is left of personal sovereignty.
What the Donald is doing now, is what politics has failed to do: to carry out the reshaping of the publics most innermost and deeply held beliefs quickly and efficiently, and without consideration. Unforeseen circumstances as a result of this reshaping are delt with on an improvisational level. Hence the constant 'moving of the goalposts' many lay on The Donald as a criticism. This is not seen as a weakness by The Donald but rather a dynamism unparalleled in modern American politics.
The Donald is wining, make no mistake about that.
Here … take a gun no badges and faces covered so there is no way of being identified so you can beat and attack who ever you want with zero accountability. Thats a good thing?
Isn't that what exactly what gangs do that we were opposed too? Opening car doors and dragging people out who then disappear?
Who else here is old enough to remember protests during the 1960’s and 70’s Vietnam war? Remember MLK peaceful protest walks over the bridge?
one of the largest sustained protests in U.S. history, driven by opposition to the draft, civilian casualties, and expanding military action in Southeast Asia. Peak protests in the late 1960s saw millions participate in rallies, marches, and civil disobedience.
Causes: Escalation of bombing, the draft, the Tet Offensive in 1968, and the 1970 invasion of Cambodia.
Major Protests: On April 15, 1967, up to 400,000 people marched in New York City. In May 1970, a nationwide student strike occurred across 900 campuses following the Kent State shootings.
Tactics:
Key Organizations: Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), the Spring Mobilization Committee to End the War in Vietnam, andvarious peace activist groups.
Impact: The protests created deep social divisions, influenced public opinion against the war, contributed to the lowering of the voting age to 18, and helped hasten the withdrawal of U.S. troops.
ICE needs a reset. Suspend ops and re-evaluate the mission. Everyone’s on edge and a decompression period is required. ICE has both weapons and backing of the White House. It’s their responsibility to de-escalate the situation.
If you break this all down to the root cause of the resistance- It’s about deporting voters. We all know this..
Pit Row
Problem is, if ICE backs down it’s giving into the temper tantrum the left is throwing…It’s no different than dealing with a toddler and the White House knows this..
My take is this, I can't imagine the amount of training it would take to be tasked with a situation that they are in. The number 1 job for a LEO is to go home to your family at the end of the day. They are now being tasked with dealing with crowds that they know are willing to harm or kill them. The situation is ripe for people to get hurt or even killed. When you are in that situation, your brain can go into survival mode vs let's think this through mode. I don't know how the cards will fall on this one but I'm not going to discount the situation leading up to the shooting. When you take classes for your pilots license, they go through some stuff about accidents. That an accident rarely just happens, it's a series of little things that lead up to it. Maybe your altimeter wasn't readjusted after flying a few hours and your auto pilot flew you right into that mountain. Point being, what lead up to this is just as important as the actual shooting. Anyone remember the advertisement for hiring IRS agents that said "must be willing to carry a firearm and use lethal force" really? IRS agents? Is anyone really surprised to people are getting killed in these "protests"?
TM
Plenty of police have been prosecuted and this guy almost certainly will be as well. I do not put this one in the same category as the previous one. Several politicians and voices on the right already calling for transparency and full investigation.
When this original topic came about in a forum post about 2 months ago. I wrote a whole response, outlining personal and local experiences of ice terrorizing and harassing people who were minding their business or COMPLYING. I provided links , videos and such for every instance that was happening here in Chicagoland area. But all of a sudden when it doesn’t fit the narrative, everyone ignores it lol.
Then last week when I mention how when my friend was taking his mom to a Dr. appointment, Ice jumped them and flash banged them, all I got was a bunch of downvotes. It’s clear these guys are just miserable old guys with no critical thinking skills if it interferes with what they’ve been told or believe in.
A stand down focuses on protecting agents and protesters. As TM writes, each agent wants to arrive home safely. Digging in deeper does not help that cause.
Dont forget these people protesting are voters from all parties not just one. Voters getting pissed is what changes politicians that were elected to represent we the people.
If you think it’s only one …..
I'm happy that people protest their grievances, but I also feel like people that protest particularly today, are just out there angry looking to yell at someone. I think ICE is now in that category, where it's become a magnet for people looking to scratch an itch that comes from a cruel place inside. This is why the Bible talks a lot about what's in your heart, because you can have two different people that appear to be doing the same thing, but what's actually happening is very different.
1930 in the USA...
Would be very easy for local politicians to invite the stand down by committing to cooperation going forward. They could say tell us who you want and we'l meet you at the state line. Would be a very easy win right now if they weren't so politically motivated to keep illegal immigrants around. They have no intention of doing that. They seem pretty content to stay dug in and let their own ruby ridge and Waco moments play out even if it costs them some bodies, and Trump and his genius leadership team are falling for it.
“Not too many of the people terrorized by the gestapo got together to go chase the gestapo around while they were doing gestapo things as part of their weekend entertainment. ”
Maybe things would have turned out differently if they would have….
truck, you’re generally pretty reasonable and perhaps you’re just playing devil’s advocate here and I’m just not picking up on it, but your victim blaming rings like blaming a woman for getting raped on her wearing a miniskirt or going out in public and being too attractive.
I think there's some nuance being missed here. I'm not absolving the shooter of anything.
Is it blaming the rape victim if before dropping my daughters off at college I tell them their chance of being raped goes up a great deal if they get hammered at a frat party they got invited to by a guy they just met?
To me it's just data. Use it to your benefit. Right and wrong and exercising rights and all of that is a separate discussion. There's certainly far more to say about rape on college campus. Informing my daughters about the data doesn't prevent action in any other area, I just don't want my daughters to get raped.
It ain't about illegal aliens, otherwise they would target Texas, Florida... It isn't about the baddest of the worst because then they would go to Compton, Little Haiti, Bronx, ...
Just let us be honest, it is all about terrorizing blue-states, because they seem to be hunting down the voters databases.
This is a moment, that will turn out to be a crucial moment in the history of the USA. Will the democracy stands or will the mid-terms become the first rigged elections in the modern history in the USA... All because cheeto wants to keep full dictatorial control.
Post a reply to: Not sure why the Minnesota Ice and Run thread got locked by the originator but.....