Oh My, What Did "Le Cobra" Say Now???

Luxon MX
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1391
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Location
San Diego, CA, USA
Fantasy
11/21/2025 10:15am
McG194 wrote:
In general strength of materials, you are right, steel is way stronger than aluminum but, in a strength, to weight ratio aluminum has it beat. In...

In general strength of materials, you are right, steel is way stronger than aluminum but, in a strength, to weight ratio aluminum has it beat. In dirt bike frames due to construction, it's a safe statement to say that aluminum is stronger even if it drives anyone who has picked up an engineering book nuts. It's like telling a machinist that something is made out of billet. I haven't been in the tool and die trade for years and I still want to punch people in the face when I hear billet. hahahaha

Luxon MX wrote:
It is NOT safe to say that an aluminum frame is stronger than steel. Or vise-versa. There are a ton of variables at play here to...

It is NOT safe to say that an aluminum frame is stronger than steel. Or vise-versa. There are a ton of variables at play here to just make a blanket statement like that. For one, strength varies wildly with alloy and heat treatment. There are aluminum alloys that are stronger than steel and there are steel alloys that are far stronger than the strongest aluminum alloys. Each alloy has various other properties to consider as well, not just the ultimate tensile strength: fatigue strength, notch sensitivity, ductility, corrosion properties, etc. 

I wrote a blog post about typical structural materials used in moto parts a while back that goes over a lot of the basics, but there are a lot more details involved that are out of the scope of that post:

https://www.luxonmx.com/blog-luxon-structural-motorcycle-materials.html 

McG194 wrote:
I was saying in relation to current motorcycle frame design. Yes with FEA they can tune softness into areas of the frame that need it but...

I was saying in relation to current motorcycle frame design. Yes with FEA they can tune softness into areas of the frame that need it but in general the construction of frames today aluminum is stiffer. It's like saying Cresent wrench or Kleenex. I know you know your stuff but you could get into the weeds and confuse a lot of people. I have been known to read the Machinery's Handbook for fun and I'm sure you could confuse me. I have engineering classes and expired CAD certs but I'm not an engineer. 

Yes, but you say "but in general the construction of frames today aluminum is stiffer" and my point is that it's impossible to state that accurately without knowing a lot more about the frame design. 

I can't say that the KTM frame is stiffer or not comparted to any other frame just because it's made from steel and another is made from aluminum. Material alone is not enough information to make that statement, and simply looking at the geometry of the frame isn't enough either. 

I know media and moto people in general repeat it over and over, but that doesn't mean it's true. There's A LOT that's repeated that's flat out wrong in this industry! Unless you've actually run the FEA on each or have physically bench tested the frames (not simply ridden them), it's not possible to know which is stiffer. 

2
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Luxon MX
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11/21/2025 10:25am
Lastander wrote:
You mentioned that aluminium was weaker long term compared to steel if I didn’t misunderstand you.However I’ve seen a few KTM group bikes be longer in...

You mentioned that aluminium was weaker long term compared to steel if I didn’t misunderstand you.
However I’ve seen a few KTM group bikes be longer in the end of the season, when the sprinter door no longer closes against the front tire..

But I guess that’s just KTM’s steel frame being to weak, and not the steel in general? I think I remember the KTM 450 wheelbase being 15mm longer after 90 hours on this A class riders bike.

From a fatigue strength perspective, steel can have infinite fatigue life below a certain stress level. Aluminum does not share this and will always eventually fail, no matter how low the stress levels. But a fatigue failure will not be evident from "frame stretch" or any appreciable changes in geometry, stiffness, or anything else noticeable aside from a crack. 

The story of a frame stretching is always an interesting one. Simply measuring the wheelbase to determine that is wildly inaccurate, particularly if the measurement tool is a sprinter van... There's lots of variables to wheelbase that are constantly adjusted - chain slack as the chain wears, fork height, different aftermarket parts (clamps, linkages, races), different tires, tire wear, different gearing, etc., all change wheelbase. 

It takes a lot for a frame to "stretch" an appreciable amount that would effect wheelbase. It's not something that happens slowly over time as is often believed. If it happens at all (it shouldn't), it happens all at once from a massive overload (huge case, massive over-jump to flat, crash, etc.) in which portions of the frame fail (plastic deformation, but not necessarily break). This is a bad thing and the frame is not designed to do that. For normal riding without massive overload, I would expect a frame with 3 hours on it to measure out identically to one with 300 hours (within manufacturing tolerances). 

9
1
davis224
Posts
7561
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8/15/2006
Location
Cornland, IL, USA
Fantasy
11/21/2025 11:52am
Lastander wrote:
You mentioned that aluminium was weaker long term compared to steel if I didn’t misunderstand you.However I’ve seen a few KTM group bikes be longer in...

You mentioned that aluminium was weaker long term compared to steel if I didn’t misunderstand you.
However I’ve seen a few KTM group bikes be longer in the end of the season, when the sprinter door no longer closes against the front tire..

But I guess that’s just KTM’s steel frame being to weak, and not the steel in general? I think I remember the KTM 450 wheelbase being 15mm longer after 90 hours on this A class riders bike.

Luxon MX wrote:
From a fatigue strength perspective, steel can have infinite fatigue life below a certain stress level. Aluminum does not share this and will always eventually fail...

From a fatigue strength perspective, steel can have infinite fatigue life below a certain stress level. Aluminum does not share this and will always eventually fail, no matter how low the stress levels. But a fatigue failure will not be evident from "frame stretch" or any appreciable changes in geometry, stiffness, or anything else noticeable aside from a crack. 

The story of a frame stretching is always an interesting one. Simply measuring the wheelbase to determine that is wildly inaccurate, particularly if the measurement tool is a sprinter van... There's lots of variables to wheelbase that are constantly adjusted - chain slack as the chain wears, fork height, different aftermarket parts (clamps, linkages, races), different tires, tire wear, different gearing, etc., all change wheelbase. 

It takes a lot for a frame to "stretch" an appreciable amount that would effect wheelbase. It's not something that happens slowly over time as is often believed. If it happens at all (it shouldn't), it happens all at once from a massive overload (huge case, massive over-jump to flat, crash, etc.) in which portions of the frame fail (plastic deformation, but not necessarily break). This is a bad thing and the frame is not designed to do that. For normal riding without massive overload, I would expect a frame with 3 hours on it to measure out identically to one with 300 hours (within manufacturing tolerances). 

You mean there's no magic frame "break in" period where it reaches a plateau of elasticity in 2 hours of ride time?!

2
1
FGR01
Posts
6139
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
USA
Fantasy
11/21/2025 12:11pm

I am so glad we are deep diving frame construction and that ET is going to cause stock KTM450's to soon have 75HP.   I have no idea how my 5 lap vet track motos would be on point otherwise....

6

The Shop

11/21/2025 12:44pm
McG194 wrote:
In general strength of materials, you are right, steel is way stronger than aluminum but, in a strength, to weight ratio aluminum has it beat. In...

In general strength of materials, you are right, steel is way stronger than aluminum but, in a strength, to weight ratio aluminum has it beat. In dirt bike frames due to construction, it's a safe statement to say that aluminum is stronger even if it drives anyone who has picked up an engineering book nuts. It's like telling a machinist that something is made out of billet. I haven't been in the tool and die trade for years and I still want to punch people in the face when I hear billet. hahahaha

Luxon MX wrote:
It is NOT safe to say that an aluminum frame is stronger than steel. Or vise-versa. There are a ton of variables at play here to...

It is NOT safe to say that an aluminum frame is stronger than steel. Or vise-versa. There are a ton of variables at play here to just make a blanket statement like that. For one, strength varies wildly with alloy and heat treatment. There are aluminum alloys that are stronger than steel and there are steel alloys that are far stronger than the strongest aluminum alloys. Each alloy has various other properties to consider as well, not just the ultimate tensile strength: fatigue strength, notch sensitivity, ductility, corrosion properties, etc. 

I wrote a blog post about typical structural materials used in moto parts a while back that goes over a lot of the basics, but there are a lot more details involved that are out of the scope of that post:

https://www.luxonmx.com/blog-luxon-structural-motorcycle-materials.html 

I read your blog while taking a break from studying for my FE test. Lots of good information here and helped me brush back up on my definitions as well as graphs. Much appreciated for sharing. My favorite part was the work hardening portion as I didn’t know what alloys can and can’t be heat treated and need to be work hardened instead. I forge knives in my shop at home so heat treatment and tempering really intrigues me. Thanks for the read and distraction from studying. 

3
G-man
Posts
9287
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Mesa, AZ, USA
11/21/2025 1:20pm
MOTO13 wrote:
I must have been the only person on planet earth that didn't totally hate the 97 CR250. I swapped springs, changed the valving and rode the...

I must have been the only person on planet earth that didn't totally hate the 97 CR250. I swapped springs, changed the valving and rode the shit out of it. I do remember that fork height made a big difference also. 

You're not alone I loved my 97CR250. Had the suspension done by factory connection. 

Bike was a rocket ship and probably was the fastest 250 of that time. Holeshot city. 😎

1

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