Appeals court upholds trade court ruling on tariffs

Dudley
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9/5/2025 12:01pm Edited Date/Time 9/5/2025 12:17pm
borg wrote:

Strike 2 on Trump and his stupid tariffs. 

ToolMaker wrote:

Why are his tariffs stupid?

Honest question, if tariffs are bringing in significant revenue, why will be raising the debt ceiling again? I’m happy we’re finally discussing reigning in the massive deficit, but as far as i can tell, it’s status quo in regard to deficit spending. It’s just frustrating to see the tarrif line on my receipts but I have no clue where money is going. 

ob
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9/5/2025 12:10pm

Man that unrealistic opinion is ridiculous 

Zycki11
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9/5/2025 1:02pm Edited Date/Time 9/5/2025 1:06pm
borg wrote:

Strike 2 on Trump and his stupid tariffs. 

ToolMaker wrote:

Why are his tariffs stupid?

Dudley wrote:
Honest question, if tariffs are bringing in significant revenue, why will be raising the debt ceiling again? I’m happy we’re finally discussing reigning in the massive...

Honest question, if tariffs are bringing in significant revenue, why will be raising the debt ceiling again? I’m happy we’re finally discussing reigning in the massive deficit, but as far as i can tell, it’s status quo in regard to deficit spending. It’s just frustrating to see the tarrif line on my receipts but I have no clue where money is going. 

Because government doesn’t operate like a business. If your company or even school lets use your school was given a grant. That grant needs to be used in full. I hate it just as much as the next guy. Especially when you realize that everyone’s retirements are tied to ETF’s which are owned by institutions who are simultaneously controlling digital assets which we inevitably will switch to. So what happens to the fiat then?  Wild West times when it comes to the real game of monopoly  


Point being, national debt is just a number and they can kick that can as long as they want. The citizens are the credit card. Until they decide enough is enough. I urged someone to breakdown a dollar bill and all that it gets taxed on in everyday usage by percentage of that dollar bill. See how much is left.


Republicans imo have a duty to lower the debt ceiling. If they do not do so it’s a major loss of credibility. It will take time to get the puzzle pieces properly in place, but they need to do it. Lower the ceiling, cut the deficit and prove to the people you give a shit about what they want. 

 

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borg
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9/5/2025 2:13pm

There is no way to lower the debt until annual deficits are zero. All that happens then is the debt remains the same but no new debt is issued. To actually lower the debt, annual budgets have to go into surplus and that surplus is used to pay off treasuries as they come due without issuing new notes. The deficit for the last full year, 2024,  was 1.8 trillion. Total discretionary spending was 1.9 trillion. Without a combination of entitlement reform, which no current politician will vote for, and raising taxes, which generally only democrats will vote for, getting the budget into surplus is a fairy tale. So now, tariffs seem to be the way that Republicans choose to raise taxes. That way, the cowards in the Republican majority don't have to go on record as voting to raise taxes. Which they really, really do not want to do. Even if the tariffs are allowed to stay in place, the revenue won't be close to enough make much of a difference without massive cuts to discretionary and NON discretionary spending such as Social Security.  They'll be on that tomorrow. Yeah right.

 

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The Shop

ns503
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9/5/2025 3:18pm Edited Date/Time 9/5/2025 3:20pm
soggy wrote:
it will be interesting to see what happens because all trumps tariffs are being done by EO, or just how hes feeling that day.  If the...

it will be interesting to see what happens because all trumps tariffs are being done by EO, or just how hes feeling that day.  If the Republican Party loses the presidency in the next election I think those will immediately go away. 

Congress is who has the power to decide tariffs and make it law, not the president. 

I’ve heard of some capital investments from countries like Japan but I also read that a lot of the money promised was a loan, not a true investment. 

The bragging about all the money coming in from tariffs is such horseshit cause it’s just money out of Americans pockets. 

Zycki11 wrote:
You can't equate money "coming in and its just money out of americans pockets" because truth is the government has been taking every single thing they...

You can't equate money "coming in and its just money out of americans pockets" because truth is the government has been taking every single thing they can from you, when they can from you for a long time.  We all get it, a lot of you are really upset about tariffs, but they take time.  The dems certainly won't win the presidency because look at them.  The record speaks for itself, they got caught LYING to public, they tried to circumvent the process of election, they lied about russia and trump, they have lied lied lied lied lied lied about everything. The economic numbers were a lie...everything was optics. So when someone says something like that If the Dems win back the presidency I kind of say well ....... Look at the party. They have to pay off Kamalas disaster still over a billion dollars.  The party has no money, no leadership, no direction, just a bunch of people bitching and complaining every single day about DONALD TRUMP. They haven't learned a damn thing.  To "circle" back to your point on tariffs... I will do this fun little example. Take a singular dollar bill... now think of every single way it is taxed on a normal basis within your life.  How much of that dollar is left? 

Switching the entire system from buying goods abroad and tariffs to manufacturing domestic takes time to see the upside, but the upside is much brighter over time.  

Government will always fuck you.. every single time. Get used to it

ToolMaker wrote:
What many folks don't understand is that a $200 pair of running shoes does not cost $200 to manufacture. Probably more like $15 if that. And...

What many folks don't understand is that a $200 pair of running shoes does not cost $200 to manufacture. Probably more like $15 if that. And that's what the tariff is based on. So a 25% tariff adds $3.75? Yes a lot of times the manufacturer will absorb that. But, with energy going down, it might be cheaper to get it to market even paying the tariff. Many companies pay way more for marketing than manufacture. If the terrific is too high, they will manufacture back home and provide jobs for us.

You really think tariffs are levied on manufacturing costs of a good, and not the price that was paid for it?

9/5/2025 4:15pm
Zycki11 wrote:
You can't equate money "coming in and its just money out of americans pockets" because truth is the government has been taking every single thing they...

You can't equate money "coming in and its just money out of americans pockets" because truth is the government has been taking every single thing they can from you, when they can from you for a long time.  We all get it, a lot of you are really upset about tariffs, but they take time.  The dems certainly won't win the presidency because look at them.  The record speaks for itself, they got caught LYING to public, they tried to circumvent the process of election, they lied about russia and trump, they have lied lied lied lied lied lied about everything. The economic numbers were a lie...everything was optics. So when someone says something like that If the Dems win back the presidency I kind of say well ....... Look at the party. They have to pay off Kamalas disaster still over a billion dollars.  The party has no money, no leadership, no direction, just a bunch of people bitching and complaining every single day about DONALD TRUMP. They haven't learned a damn thing.  To "circle" back to your point on tariffs... I will do this fun little example. Take a singular dollar bill... now think of every single way it is taxed on a normal basis within your life.  How much of that dollar is left? 

Switching the entire system from buying goods abroad and tariffs to manufacturing domestic takes time to see the upside, but the upside is much brighter over time.  

Government will always fuck you.. every single time. Get used to it

ToolMaker wrote:
What many folks don't understand is that a $200 pair of running shoes does not cost $200 to manufacture. Probably more like $15 if that. And...

What many folks don't understand is that a $200 pair of running shoes does not cost $200 to manufacture. Probably more like $15 if that. And that's what the tariff is based on. So a 25% tariff adds $3.75? Yes a lot of times the manufacturer will absorb that. But, with energy going down, it might be cheaper to get it to market even paying the tariff. Many companies pay way more for marketing than manufacture. If the terrific is too high, they will manufacture back home and provide jobs for us.

ns503 wrote:

You really think tariffs are levied on manufacturing costs of a good, and not the price that was paid for it?

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

1
ns503
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9/5/2025 5:41pm Edited Date/Time 9/5/2025 5:45pm
ToolMaker wrote:
What many folks don't understand is that a $200 pair of running shoes does not cost $200 to manufacture. Probably more like $15 if that. And...

What many folks don't understand is that a $200 pair of running shoes does not cost $200 to manufacture. Probably more like $15 if that. And that's what the tariff is based on. So a 25% tariff adds $3.75? Yes a lot of times the manufacturer will absorb that. But, with energy going down, it might be cheaper to get it to market even paying the tariff. Many companies pay way more for marketing than manufacture. If the terrific is too high, they will manufacture back home and provide jobs for us.

ns503 wrote:

You really think tariffs are levied on manufacturing costs of a good, and not the price that was paid for it?

ToolMaker wrote:
Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it...

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

The tariff would be applied to $20 in that case. If that is what the importer paid. You didn't mention where the importer was in there. Manufacturers do not sell things for what it costs to make the things. Or they would not be manufacturing very long. Add in transportation  and profit margin, you get close to the importers price.

9/5/2025 6:08pm
ns503 wrote:

You really think tariffs are levied on manufacturing costs of a good, and not the price that was paid for it?

ToolMaker wrote:
Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it...

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

ns503 wrote:
The tariff would be applied to $20 in that case. If that is what the importer paid. You didn't mention where the importer was in there...

The tariff would be applied to $20 in that case. If that is what the importer paid. You didn't mention where the importer was in there. Manufacturers do not sell things for what it costs to make the things. Or they would not be manufacturing very long. Add in transportation  and profit margin, you get close to the importers price.

I'm not sure about that, if you inly paid $10 for it, it would be tariffed at $10. Not at what you're going to sell it for. That sounds fishy to me

9/5/2025 7:09pm
ToolMaker wrote:
What many folks don't understand is that a $200 pair of running shoes does not cost $200 to manufacture. Probably more like $15 if that. And...

What many folks don't understand is that a $200 pair of running shoes does not cost $200 to manufacture. Probably more like $15 if that. And that's what the tariff is based on. So a 25% tariff adds $3.75? Yes a lot of times the manufacturer will absorb that. But, with energy going down, it might be cheaper to get it to market even paying the tariff. Many companies pay way more for marketing than manufacture. If the terrific is too high, they will manufacture back home and provide jobs for us.

ns503 wrote:

You really think tariffs are levied on manufacturing costs of a good, and not the price that was paid for it?

ToolMaker wrote:
Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it...

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

Tariff is the cost to the US port of entry, if your opener cost $10 out the factory door and $3 to ship to the US, the tariff would be applied to the $13.

Typical costs out the factory door of consumer goods, is 14% of retail price.

9/5/2025 10:30pm
ns503 wrote:

You really think tariffs are levied on manufacturing costs of a good, and not the price that was paid for it?

ToolMaker wrote:
Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it...

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

Tariff is the cost to the US port of entry, if your opener cost $10 out the factory door and $3 to ship to the US...

Tariff is the cost to the US port of entry, if your opener cost $10 out the factory door and $3 to ship to the US, the tariff would be applied to the $13.

Typical costs out the factory door of consumer goods, is 14% of retail price.

Why in the world would you pay a tariff on the invoice to the shipping co?

1
9/5/2025 10:33pm
ToolMaker wrote:
Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it...

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

Tariff is the cost to the US port of entry, if your opener cost $10 out the factory door and $3 to ship to the US...

Tariff is the cost to the US port of entry, if your opener cost $10 out the factory door and $3 to ship to the US, the tariff would be applied to the $13.

Typical costs out the factory door of consumer goods, is 14% of retail price.

ToolMaker wrote:

Why in the world would you pay a tariff on the invoice to the shipping co?

FYI, I recently purchased some tooling for a machine from Alibaba. I paid tariff on invoice to company but no tariff on DHL invoice

TM

1
9/5/2025 11:39pm
Tariff is the cost to the US port of entry, if your opener cost $10 out the factory door and $3 to ship to the US...

Tariff is the cost to the US port of entry, if your opener cost $10 out the factory door and $3 to ship to the US, the tariff would be applied to the $13.

Typical costs out the factory door of consumer goods, is 14% of retail price.

ToolMaker wrote:

Why in the world would you pay a tariff on the invoice to the shipping co?

ToolMaker wrote:

FYI, I recently purchased some tooling for a machine from Alibaba. I paid tariff on invoice to company but no tariff on DHL invoice

TM

You're buying from China, I'm shocked you're not supporting US machine tool manufacturers!

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2
early
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9/6/2025 5:19am
ToolMaker wrote:
Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it...

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

The question is does the extra $2.50 charged at wholesale make domestic manufacturing of can openers competitive against the imported product or does the math on the cost still not make it profitable to manufacture in the US such that the US product doesn't exist and the extra $2.50 simply functions as an additional tax?

Hey zycki, I'm wondering what you meant by this? "The amount of money pouring in from institutions is unmatched and never been seen before."

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Ob917
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Cardiff, CA, USA
9/6/2025 7:32am

There are specific Tariff fee calculators to help with the extra taxes we are paying on most things imported. But it’s not easy as saying it’s 68% of the declared value. Materials, shipping, origination etc etc affect the taxes (tariffs)

We are all going to get screwed big time, it’s just started. 

2
9/6/2025 8:48am
ToolMaker wrote:

Why in the world would you pay a tariff on the invoice to the shipping co?

ToolMaker wrote:

FYI, I recently purchased some tooling for a machine from Alibaba. I paid tariff on invoice to company but no tariff on DHL invoice

TM

You're buying from China, I'm shocked you're not supporting US machine tool manufacturers!

Prior to making that statement, you'd have to know what it is. And you'd also want to know if the company in the US actually makes it? Or if they are getting it from the exact same facility. No, just another liberal knee jerk post crying for attention.

TM

4
9/6/2025 8:51am

Since this thread is about a ruling against a Trump policy,

"10 federal judges gave anonymous quotes to NBC News about how they are mad at the Supreme Court for constantly ruling against them. According to the judges, the Supreme Court is "making it seem like they did shoddy work and are biased against Trump."

https://x.com/greg_price11/status/1963594658073792859?ref_src=twsrc%5Et…

3
9/6/2025 7:01pm
ToolMaker wrote:

FYI, I recently purchased some tooling for a machine from Alibaba. I paid tariff on invoice to company but no tariff on DHL invoice

TM

You're buying from China, I'm shocked you're not supporting US machine tool manufacturers!

ToolMaker wrote:
Prior to making that statement, you'd have to know what it is. And you'd also want to know if the company in the US actually makes...

Prior to making that statement, you'd have to know what it is. And you'd also want to know if the company in the US actually makes it? Or if they are getting it from the exact same facility. No, just another liberal knee jerk post crying for attention.

TM

What did you buy?

9/6/2025 7:49pm

You're buying from China, I'm shocked you're not supporting US machine tool manufacturers!

ToolMaker wrote:
Prior to making that statement, you'd have to know what it is. And you'd also want to know if the company in the US actually makes...

Prior to making that statement, you'd have to know what it is. And you'd also want to know if the company in the US actually makes it? Or if they are getting it from the exact same facility. No, just another liberal knee jerk post crying for attention.

TM

What did you buy?

"What did you buy?"

You think I give a rats ass about your approval?

I think I'm over indulging your little cries for attention.

TM

10
olds cool
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9/8/2025 12:12pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2025 6:25am

Wonder what the odds are of this appeals court ruling turning out like this?

https://youtu.be/y3BsMuFxH8g

 

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Joey Bridges
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9/8/2025 12:19pm Edited Date/Time 9/8/2025 12:24pm
olds cool wrote:

Wonder what the odds are of this appeals court ruling turning out like this?

https://youtu.be/y3BsMuFxH8g

 

Oh that's sure to wad up a few undies around here.

 

It's called, operation midway blitz !!!

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lumpy790
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9/8/2025 3:59pm

toolmaker your math is interesting but .... if the product before tariff that normally cost $13 to get to your door and only had a $7 profit which is a very low 54% markup BTW so now you want them to take away $2.50 of their $7 profits so that's now only a $4.50 profit and roughly a 35% loss?

The goods are not getting cheaper they are increasing in price so are your workers going to work for 35% less the next day to compensate and make up for it? Or Are you going to fire 35% of your employees and get the remaining leftover workers to do 35% more work just to keep your doors open? 

That $2.50 tariff added cost on every single product escalates along the way so it became a $15.5 cost part. now multiply on the distributor markup % that gets tacked on so now that drives the dealers cost higher and now add on the dealers % margin so now retail price is much higher than the original $2.50 tariff that started the escalation gets marked up through several % level increases along the way.

In my rough equations that $15.50 part now including the $2.50 tariff along the way becomes roughly a $3.25 tariff so now that $20 retail part now is a $23.50 retail part over night. 

BTW dealers can not keep up with the daily price increases. If you told a customer on the phone 2 days ag and they now come in to order it and its not more $ and a pissed off customer.

Every business has a minimum % that they markup and that % will not change to a lower % it will stay the same. its the starting cost that escalates it.

 

1
9/8/2025 4:53pm
ToolMaker wrote:
Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it...

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

early wrote:
The question is does the extra $2.50 charged at wholesale make domestic manufacturing of can openers competitive against the imported product or does the math on...

The question is does the extra $2.50 charged at wholesale make domestic manufacturing of can openers competitive against the imported product or does the math on the cost still not make it profitable to manufacture in the US such that the US product doesn't exist and the extra $2.50 simply functions as an additional tax?

Hey zycki, I'm wondering what you meant by this? "The amount of money pouring in from institutions is unmatched and never been seen before."

Some items yes, some items no. Some companies manufacture off shore because of regulations that they can't get around here. Had a customer one time when I built automation equipment that made paint in CA. (25 years ago). CA came to them and said your emissions have to be XYZ. Company said we just spent a gajillion dollars on scrubbers. CA said, not good enough. Company said the technology does not exist to get to what you're asking. CA said, if you want to do business in CA you'll pay to have the technology developed. 6 months later they were producing paint in Nevada.

I've told this story before, many years ago when I was just married, my wife was an executive secretary for a few of the VPs at Sony. She came home one day and said they got issued a big fine for pouring water down the drain that was "too clean". We have regulations that are crazy and add expense like you would not believe.

9/8/2025 4:56pm
olds cool wrote:

Wonder what the odds are of this appeals court ruling turning out like this?

https://youtu.be/y3BsMuFxH8g

 

Are you getting tired of winning? Supreme Court also just overturned another one. That Trump does not have to rehire The FTC lady while it goes through the court process.

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early
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9/8/2025 6:01pm
ToolMaker wrote:
Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it...

Why wouldn't it be on the value of how much it cost to produce? The value changes as it goes through sales channels. You manufacture it for a particular price and then import it to the United States. You then sell it to a distributor at a markup, then a retailer at a markup, then to the customer at a markup. Many companies spend more on advertising than on making their product. So an increase in a small percentage of the product due to tariffs, does not necessarily mean a significant price increase to the consumer. Let's say you make can openers. They cost you $10 to make. You bring in the can openers at a value of $10. That's what should get tariffed. But it cost you $3 to ship so now you sell it to a distributor for $20 to cover manufacturing and shipping. Distributor wants to make 35 points so they sell it at $27 to the retailer who wants to make between 50 and 100 points so they sell it at $45-$50 to the consumer. So adding on $2.50 in the beginning is pretty easy to get absorbed in the pipeline somewhere without raising the $50 can opener by $12.50

I could be very wrong on this and if anyone wants to correct that, feel free.

early wrote:
The question is does the extra $2.50 charged at wholesale make domestic manufacturing of can openers competitive against the imported product or does the math on...

The question is does the extra $2.50 charged at wholesale make domestic manufacturing of can openers competitive against the imported product or does the math on the cost still not make it profitable to manufacture in the US such that the US product doesn't exist and the extra $2.50 simply functions as an additional tax?

Hey zycki, I'm wondering what you meant by this? "The amount of money pouring in from institutions is unmatched and never been seen before."

ToolMaker wrote:
Some items yes, some items no. Some companies manufacture off shore because of regulations that they can't get around here. Had a customer one time when...

Some items yes, some items no. Some companies manufacture off shore because of regulations that they can't get around here. Had a customer one time when I built automation equipment that made paint in CA. (25 years ago). CA came to them and said your emissions have to be XYZ. Company said we just spent a gajillion dollars on scrubbers. CA said, not good enough. Company said the technology does not exist to get to what you're asking. CA said, if you want to do business in CA you'll pay to have the technology developed. 6 months later they were producing paint in Nevada.

I've told this story before, many years ago when I was just married, my wife was an executive secretary for a few of the VPs at Sony. She came home one day and said they got issued a big fine for pouring water down the drain that was "too clean". We have regulations that are crazy and add expense like you would not believe.

Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. 

As you pointed out there's many different factors that go into the economics of everything including manufacturing here. You should check out the Abundance Movement that's emerging as kind of a pivot away from Woke mainly among the center left. It centers on reducing regulation and embracing classical liberal values. The leftists, socialists and commies hate it.

2
1
Piston Slap
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Location
Stillwater, OK, USA
9/8/2025 7:48pm
early wrote:
Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. As...

Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. 

As you pointed out there's many different factors that go into the economics of everything including manufacturing here. You should check out the Abundance Movement that's emerging as kind of a pivot away from Woke mainly among the center left. It centers on reducing regulation and embracing classical liberal values. The leftists, socialists and commies hate it.

Stick with indoctrinating/brainwashing/ teaching high school students in Cali.  

You are not an economist and you only regurgitate what you hear or can do with a bs search on the net.. . 

You throw all this crap out there, and few of us believe anything you say. . . .

Seriously, go do a lesson plan or something.

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early
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Location
University Heights, OH, USA
9/9/2025 3:49am
early wrote:
Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. As...

Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. 

As you pointed out there's many different factors that go into the economics of everything including manufacturing here. You should check out the Abundance Movement that's emerging as kind of a pivot away from Woke mainly among the center left. It centers on reducing regulation and embracing classical liberal values. The leftists, socialists and commies hate it.

Stick with indoctrinating/brainwashing/ teaching high school students in Cali.  You are not an economist and you only regurgitate what you hear or can do with a...

Stick with indoctrinating/brainwashing/ teaching high school students in Cali.  

You are not an economist and you only regurgitate what you hear or can do with a bs search on the net.. . 

You throw all this crap out there, and few of us believe anything you say. . . .

Seriously, go do a lesson plan or something.

You have me confused with someone else but thanks for the low IQ input.

9/9/2025 4:43am
early wrote:
The question is does the extra $2.50 charged at wholesale make domestic manufacturing of can openers competitive against the imported product or does the math on...

The question is does the extra $2.50 charged at wholesale make domestic manufacturing of can openers competitive against the imported product or does the math on the cost still not make it profitable to manufacture in the US such that the US product doesn't exist and the extra $2.50 simply functions as an additional tax?

Hey zycki, I'm wondering what you meant by this? "The amount of money pouring in from institutions is unmatched and never been seen before."

ToolMaker wrote:
Some items yes, some items no. Some companies manufacture off shore because of regulations that they can't get around here. Had a customer one time when...

Some items yes, some items no. Some companies manufacture off shore because of regulations that they can't get around here. Had a customer one time when I built automation equipment that made paint in CA. (25 years ago). CA came to them and said your emissions have to be XYZ. Company said we just spent a gajillion dollars on scrubbers. CA said, not good enough. Company said the technology does not exist to get to what you're asking. CA said, if you want to do business in CA you'll pay to have the technology developed. 6 months later they were producing paint in Nevada.

I've told this story before, many years ago when I was just married, my wife was an executive secretary for a few of the VPs at Sony. She came home one day and said they got issued a big fine for pouring water down the drain that was "too clean". We have regulations that are crazy and add expense like you would not believe.

early wrote:
Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. As...

Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. 

As you pointed out there's many different factors that go into the economics of everything including manufacturing here. You should check out the Abundance Movement that's emerging as kind of a pivot away from Woke mainly among the center left. It centers on reducing regulation and embracing classical liberal values. The leftists, socialists and commies hate it.

"Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items."

While that's mostly true, if the tariffing government is bringing in a lot of $$s from tariffs, they can lower the tax rate of the local company.

This is not a single step fix, it's one step in the right direction. Trump is getting a lot of commitments to build factories in the USA. And what stupid future president will give our jobs away again after they are established here? Political suicide.

3
9/9/2025 4:54am
lumpy790 wrote:
toolmaker your math is interesting but .... if the product before tariff that normally cost $13 to get to your door and only had a $7...

toolmaker your math is interesting but .... if the product before tariff that normally cost $13 to get to your door and only had a $7 profit which is a very low 54% markup BTW so now you want them to take away $2.50 of their $7 profits so that's now only a $4.50 profit and roughly a 35% loss?

The goods are not getting cheaper they are increasing in price so are your workers going to work for 35% less the next day to compensate and make up for it? Or Are you going to fire 35% of your employees and get the remaining leftover workers to do 35% more work just to keep your doors open? 

That $2.50 tariff added cost on every single product escalates along the way so it became a $15.5 cost part. now multiply on the distributor markup % that gets tacked on so now that drives the dealers cost higher and now add on the dealers % margin so now retail price is much higher than the original $2.50 tariff that started the escalation gets marked up through several % level increases along the way.

In my rough equations that $15.50 part now including the $2.50 tariff along the way becomes roughly a $3.25 tariff so now that $20 retail part now is a $23.50 retail part over night. 

BTW dealers can not keep up with the daily price increases. If you told a customer on the phone 2 days ag and they now come in to order it and its not more $ and a pissed off customer.

Every business has a minimum % that they markup and that % will not change to a lower % it will stay the same. its the starting cost that escalates it.

 

Those were random #s. Now, if every step in the process, they want to keep the same percentage, yes the tariff grows. But there's a lot of stages where it can be absorbed. Does the distributor really need the same percentage profit of the item and the tariff? They could keep their exact same pricing and add a tariff surcharge line item and the tariff does not grow.

soggy
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USA
9/9/2025 7:08am
lumpy790 wrote:
toolmaker your math is interesting but .... if the product before tariff that normally cost $13 to get to your door and only had a $7...

toolmaker your math is interesting but .... if the product before tariff that normally cost $13 to get to your door and only had a $7 profit which is a very low 54% markup BTW so now you want them to take away $2.50 of their $7 profits so that's now only a $4.50 profit and roughly a 35% loss?

The goods are not getting cheaper they are increasing in price so are your workers going to work for 35% less the next day to compensate and make up for it? Or Are you going to fire 35% of your employees and get the remaining leftover workers to do 35% more work just to keep your doors open? 

That $2.50 tariff added cost on every single product escalates along the way so it became a $15.5 cost part. now multiply on the distributor markup % that gets tacked on so now that drives the dealers cost higher and now add on the dealers % margin so now retail price is much higher than the original $2.50 tariff that started the escalation gets marked up through several % level increases along the way.

In my rough equations that $15.50 part now including the $2.50 tariff along the way becomes roughly a $3.25 tariff so now that $20 retail part now is a $23.50 retail part over night. 

BTW dealers can not keep up with the daily price increases. If you told a customer on the phone 2 days ag and they now come in to order it and its not more $ and a pissed off customer.

Every business has a minimum % that they markup and that % will not change to a lower % it will stay the same. its the starting cost that escalates it.

 

ToolMaker wrote:
Those were random #s. Now, if every step in the process, they want to keep the same percentage, yes the tariff grows. But there's a lot...

Those were random #s. Now, if every step in the process, they want to keep the same percentage, yes the tariff grows. But there's a lot of stages where it can be absorbed. Does the distributor really need the same percentage profit of the item and the tariff? They could keep their exact same pricing and add a tariff surcharge line item and the tariff does not grow.

When someone or a company has an opportunity to make the same amount of money or make less I wonder what they will choose. 

2
early
Posts
10009
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Location
University Heights, OH, USA
9/9/2025 7:10am
ToolMaker wrote:
Some items yes, some items no. Some companies manufacture off shore because of regulations that they can't get around here. Had a customer one time when...

Some items yes, some items no. Some companies manufacture off shore because of regulations that they can't get around here. Had a customer one time when I built automation equipment that made paint in CA. (25 years ago). CA came to them and said your emissions have to be XYZ. Company said we just spent a gajillion dollars on scrubbers. CA said, not good enough. Company said the technology does not exist to get to what you're asking. CA said, if you want to do business in CA you'll pay to have the technology developed. 6 months later they were producing paint in Nevada.

I've told this story before, many years ago when I was just married, my wife was an executive secretary for a few of the VPs at Sony. She came home one day and said they got issued a big fine for pouring water down the drain that was "too clean". We have regulations that are crazy and add expense like you would not believe.

early wrote:
Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. As...

Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items. 

As you pointed out there's many different factors that go into the economics of everything including manufacturing here. You should check out the Abundance Movement that's emerging as kind of a pivot away from Woke mainly among the center left. It centers on reducing regulation and embracing classical liberal values. The leftists, socialists and commies hate it.

ToolMaker wrote:
"Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items."While...

"Tariffs don't do anything to lower the cost of doing business or regulatory burden in America. They are meant to raise the market price of items."

While that's mostly true, if the tariffing government is bringing in a lot of $$s from tariffs, they can lower the tax rate of the local company.

This is not a single step fix, it's one step in the right direction. Trump is getting a lot of commitments to build factories in the USA. And what stupid future president will give our jobs away again after they are established here? Political suicide.

Kinda the same vibe regarding using tariffs to lower taxes, no?

images 33.jpeg?VersionId=4IuE

As with anything the government says, I'll believe the factories get built when I see them. 

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