Trump Zelensky

Magoofan
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3/6/2025 9:40am
Follow up - found a video with the leaked phone call from Victoria Nuland that was mentioned in the above video

Follow up - found a video with the leaked phone call from Victoria Nuland that was mentioned in the above video

.....but but but....that goes against everything I've been spoon fed.

 

Absolutely insane.

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Twigster
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3/6/2025 9:41am Edited Date/Time 3/6/2025 9:45am
TeamGreen wrote:
“World’s Established Order”…?Huh.Well, I’ll let you in on a little fact…We’re only ONE nation.Go get the other 194 countries…ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY FUCKING FOUR…get them to...

“World’s Established Order”…?

Huh.

Well, I’ll let you in on a little fact…

We’re only ONE nation.

Go get the other 194 countries…ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY FUCKING FOUR…get them to help out with your “World’s Established Order”.

Kennedy was right. 

Twigster wrote:
Simple question from me, as you're one of the main posters in here who I suspect actually isn't happy with how this has played out even...

Simple question from me, as you're one of the main posters in here who I suspect actually isn't happy with how this has played out even though you support what Trump is doing as a rule... 

Do you see Russia as an equal to the US or China?

TeamGreen wrote:
Nope…certainly not economically and as of late, they’re tapped out militarily, too. They’ve proven it…look at the North Koreans & other foreigners they’ve deployed in their invasion...

Nope…certainly not economically and as of late, they’re tapped out militarily, too. 

They’ve proven it…look at the North Koreans & other foreigners they’ve deployed in their invasion of Ukraine…there’s also the discussion of how those foreign fighters were involuntarily deployed…but, I digress. 

They’ve got The Big Stick that they’re constantly waving in the air…Nukes. And that’s about all they’ve got.

The latest conversations about Russia have them involved in negotiating a new “No Nukes for Iran” deal…that’s interesting.

As to my support of “what Trump is doing”…? We’ll see. I do want Russia to pay for what they’ve done. I’m not one of those that’s anti-Ukriane…not by a damn sight. But, they’re no angels…hell…no one is. The USA certainly isn’t when it comes to instigating this nightmare in Europe.

Agree with all of that. Which is why I am so confused on the way this has played out so far. 

Treating them as equals allowing them to run around like they're the big dick in the showers talking about a global triangle of Russia, US and China or having Lavrov talk about how any deal should mean Ukraine handing over all the areas Russia annexed (and doesn't even hold militarily) is a strange approach when to all intents and purposes the US and NATO combined (I'm not saying as equal contributors etc that's been done to death, so not touching it) had them by the bollocks. 

That said, lets see how this plays out. There's a long way to go yet. I'm not in the camp that's running around hair on fire, more a casual raised eyebrow..

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Magoofan
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image 1305
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TeamGreen
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3/6/2025 10:39am
Magoofan wrote:
image 1305

That picture don’t lie 

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The Shop

Spoonguy
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3/6/2025 11:18am
FastEddy wrote:

Headline today

Ukraine’s former top military commander Zaluzhnyi warns that the U.S. is "destroying" the world’s established order — Bloomberg

TeamGreen wrote:
“World’s Established Order”…?Huh.Well, I’ll let you in on a little fact…We’re only ONE nation.Go get the other 194 countries…ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY FUCKING FOUR…get them to...

“World’s Established Order”…?

Huh.

Well, I’ll let you in on a little fact…

We’re only ONE nation.

Go get the other 194 countries…ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY FUCKING FOUR…get them to help out with your “World’s Established Order”.

Kennedy was right. 

Twigster wrote:
Simple question from me, as you're one of the main posters in here who I suspect actually isn't happy with how this has played out even...

Simple question from me, as you're one of the main posters in here who I suspect actually isn't happy with how this has played out even though you support what Trump is doing as a rule... 

Do you see Russia as an equal to the US or China?

I think I heard Russia's population is about Mexico's size. Their GDP is about 1/7th of the EU. Hardly an international power, maybe a local power, certainly big enough though to scare the absolute bat shit out of Europe and make them plead for hundreds of billions of dollars from us.

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FastEddy
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3/6/2025 11:24am
TeamGreen wrote:
“World’s Established Order”…?Huh.Well, I’ll let you in on a little fact…We’re only ONE nation.Go get the other 194 countries…ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY FUCKING FOUR…get them to...

“World’s Established Order”…?

Huh.

Well, I’ll let you in on a little fact…

We’re only ONE nation.

Go get the other 194 countries…ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY FUCKING FOUR…get them to help out with your “World’s Established Order”.

Kennedy was right. 

Twigster wrote:
Simple question from me, as you're one of the main posters in here who I suspect actually isn't happy with how this has played out even...

Simple question from me, as you're one of the main posters in here who I suspect actually isn't happy with how this has played out even though you support what Trump is doing as a rule... 

Do you see Russia as an equal to the US or China?

Spoonguy wrote:
I think I heard Russia's population is about Mexico's size. Their GDP is about 1/7th of the EU. Hardly an international power, maybe a local power...

I think I heard Russia's population is about Mexico's size. Their GDP is about 1/7th of the EU. Hardly an international power, maybe a local power, certainly big enough though to scare the absolute bat shit out of Europe and make them plead for hundreds of billions of dollars from us.

Where Russia stands on the world stage. ->  Russia's nuclear arsenal is estimated to be 5,580 warheads, the largest in the world.   This includes 4,380 operational warheads and about 1,200 warheads awaiting dismantlement (which may not happen). 

That's their main flex  - a global nuclear threat. 

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jjavaman
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3/6/2025 12:10pm
Titan1 wrote:
Why is pausing funds going to Ukraine considered supporting russia?We aren’t giving money to Russia…our relationship with Russia hasn’t changed….just because something that is in the...

Why is pausing funds going to Ukraine considered supporting russia?


We aren’t giving money to Russia…our relationship with Russia hasn’t changed….just because something that is in the best interest of America also happens to POSSIBLY benefit one of our enemies, doesn’t mean our enemy is now our friend…classic liberal (lack of) logic…

IMG 0849 0
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jjavaman
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3/6/2025 12:21pm
In the USA, which is grounded in classical liberalism via our Constitution and Bill of Rights, most of that is defined as inherent to our being...

In the USA, which is grounded in classical liberalism via our Constitution and Bill of Rights, most of that is defined as inherent to our being and our government is limited from interfering with them. Liberalism and conservativism in the USA really aren't dependent on that definition. 

As an example, American liberals/leftists were in support of limiting and controlling free speech by law for issues like COVID and trans ideology. Conservatives/the right were in opposition of that.

However, I'm sure there are examples where a similar situation is reversed. 

Think of it like the old British currency standard, as opposed to the current standard 🙂

It is the King's English, Charlie should decide the definition!

STVMCQN wrote:

Isn’t he a pedophile on Epstein’s list?

No, that’s the convicted rapist 

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LungButter
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3/6/2025 12:27pm
jjavaman wrote:

No, that’s the convicted rapist 

Who's a convicted rapist?

avidchimp
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3/6/2025 12:34pm

John Wayne Gacy.

3/6/2025 12:41pm Edited Date/Time 3/6/2025 2:38pm
TeamGreen wrote:
Is it time to explain “Reciprocal” to them?🤣It’s like this, WE…the USA…are gonna put the same tariffs on your stuff that YOU…Canada…put on our stuff.Then there’s...

Is it time to explain “Reciprocal” to them?🤣

It’s like this, WE…the USA…are gonna put the same tariffs on your stuff that YOU…Canada…put on our stuff.

Then there’s the whole “border enforcement” thing that’s hitting Canada and Mexico with tariffs until The Donald is satisfied that they’re enforcing their borders and drug enforcement in a satisfactory manner.

It’s that simple. 

I have only skimmed this thread so may be missing where this has been discussed in more detail, 

If you take away energy(oil) exports from Canada, the trade imbalance is reversed and Canada would be in the deficit. Which has been the driving factor in the existing tariffs because that oil is already sold at a discount to the US. 

Fully agree with tightening up the boarder but I have a hard time believing drugs and illegals are legitimate reason. Less then 1% of the fentanyl that flows to the states come from Canada. There is actually more coming from the US north. 

I also think the impact and narrative of tariffs on Americans is overplayed, as Canada only accounts for 5% of US trade. For sure it’s going to impact some stuff (mainly energy) but as a whole the US should be fine.  For Canada the US accounts for 75% of its trade, will have a huge impact and is where the frustration/concern comes from. Hopefully it’s a wake up call to build some more pipelines and build new trade relations to diversify, but I would be surprised if any of that happened as we can’t even figure out interprovincial trade within the country. 

Not sure what the real plan is with the tariffs other the to cause some destabilization, for what used to be allies. I suspect it all comes down to resources.  Interesting times anyway. 

edit to clarify, 5% without oil, 13% with oil included. 



 

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borg
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3/6/2025 1:16pm

I have been following Sachs for a few weeks and still don't know quite what to make of him. I'm always suspicious of some kind of underlying fealty when anyone speaks out but so far I don't have anything. What he says sounds entirely plausible if not mostly factual. He's pretty quick to point the finger at the US for other foreign policy issues but it doesn't mean he's wrong.

The democrats, especially since Trump's 2016 victory, have become just as anti Russia as republicans ever used to be. I am glad he brought up Victoria Nuland as I have heard the same things from other sources like Glenn Greenwald. 

inflammable
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3/6/2025 1:25pm
borg wrote:
I have been following Sachs for a few weeks and still don't know quite what to make of him. I'm always suspicious of some kind of...

I have been following Sachs for a few weeks and still don't know quite what to make of him. I'm always suspicious of some kind of underlying fealty when anyone speaks out but so far I don't have anything. What he says sounds entirely plausible if not mostly factual. He's pretty quick to point the finger at the US for other foreign policy issues but it doesn't mean he's wrong.

The democrats, especially since Trump's 2016 victory, have become just as anti Russia as republicans ever used to be. I am glad he brought up Victoria Nuland as I have heard the same things from other sources like Glenn Greenwald. 

Just about everything he says in that video I've heard corroborated from others. 

Hillary Clinton is evil, but Victoria Nuland is at least her equal. 

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Spoonguy
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Twigster wrote:
Simple question from me, as you're one of the main posters in here who I suspect actually isn't happy with how this has played out even...

Simple question from me, as you're one of the main posters in here who I suspect actually isn't happy with how this has played out even though you support what Trump is doing as a rule... 

Do you see Russia as an equal to the US or China?

Spoonguy wrote:
I think I heard Russia's population is about Mexico's size. Their GDP is about 1/7th of the EU. Hardly an international power, maybe a local power...

I think I heard Russia's population is about Mexico's size. Their GDP is about 1/7th of the EU. Hardly an international power, maybe a local power, certainly big enough though to scare the absolute bat shit out of Europe and make them plead for hundreds of billions of dollars from us.

FastEddy wrote:
Where Russia stands on the world stage. ->  Russia's nuclear arsenal is estimated to be 5,580 warheads, the largest in the world.   This includes 4,380...

Where Russia stands on the world stage. ->  Russia's nuclear arsenal is estimated to be 5,580 warheads, the largest in the world.   This includes 4,380 operational warheads and about 1,200 warheads awaiting dismantlement (which may not happen). 

That's their main flex  - a global nuclear threat. 

They've been nuking a lot of countries have they? So Ukraine wants unending hundreds of billions of dollars because Putin has nukes? What defensive weapon is Ukraine building to defend against nukes? I don't mean to be crass or insensitive to the plight of others but nukes have been more a curse than a blessing to Russia. If they use one, just one, even bu accident, the odds of worldwide destruction within moments is almost assured. I think I read our President has seven minutes to react at the sign of a launch. Yet because of this world destroying arsenal, which Russia states is defensive, makes them the enemy of the free world no matter what they do. I think it is safe to say as far as conventional forces they haven't had much luck since WW2, their economy is a wreck, education is poor, standard of living is bad....

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early
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Follow up - found a video with the leaked phone call from Victoria Nuland that was mentioned in the above video

Follow up - found a video with the leaked phone call from Victoria Nuland that was mentioned in the above video

Could you give your interpretation of what this call was about? I've listened to it a few times but it's not clear to me exactly what the context of it is. 

They mention persuading Klitschko not to run, from some research it seems there was question of his German residency, perhaps the "fuck the EU" was on regards to him being their preferred candidate. Ultimately he supported Poroshenko who won the presidential election. I assume this call was made shortly after Russia took over Crimea which is where the "Russia will be all up in this" comes from. 

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inflammable
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3/6/2025 5:35pm
Follow up - found a video with the leaked phone call from Victoria Nuland that was mentioned in the above video

Follow up - found a video with the leaked phone call from Victoria Nuland that was mentioned in the above video

early wrote:
Could you give your interpretation of what this call was about? I've listened to it a few times but it's not clear to me exactly what...

Could you give your interpretation of what this call was about? I've listened to it a few times but it's not clear to me exactly what the context of it is. 

They mention persuading Klitschko not to run, from some research it seems there was question of his German residency, perhaps the "fuck the EU" was on regards to him being their preferred candidate. Ultimately he supported Poroshenko who won the presidential election. I assume this call was made shortly after Russia took over Crimea which is where the "Russia will be all up in this" comes from. 

What I got out of it the most was two US government officials interfering with the sovereignty of another nation. They were working to persuade who runs and who doesn't, or who should be supported by who. It's not clear to me if Russia was already interfering in Ukraine elections (very possible with such a large Russian population there) or if they really started in response to the US/NATO interference. The EU comment I took as a general "to hell with them, we'll go about this our way". 

I'm going to listen to it a few more times later, and maybe I can track down some info related to it. If I have any luck I'll be sure and share. 

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3/6/2025 5:52pm

Completely understandable if you haven't,  but you guys have never heard about  Victoria Nuland?

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inflammable
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3/6/2025 5:55pm

Completely understandable if you haven't,  but you guys have never heard about  Victoria Nuland?

Honestly I wasn't really aware of her until the last few years. I recall hearing the name in the past but that was during a time when I was apathetic about politics. 

Spoonguy
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3/6/2025 6:21pm
borg wrote:
I have been following Sachs for a few weeks and still don't know quite what to make of him. I'm always suspicious of some kind of...

I have been following Sachs for a few weeks and still don't know quite what to make of him. I'm always suspicious of some kind of underlying fealty when anyone speaks out but so far I don't have anything. What he says sounds entirely plausible if not mostly factual. He's pretty quick to point the finger at the US for other foreign policy issues but it doesn't mean he's wrong.

The democrats, especially since Trump's 2016 victory, have become just as anti Russia as republicans ever used to be. I am glad he brought up Victoria Nuland as I have heard the same things from other sources like Glenn Greenwald. 

Just about everything he says in that video I've heard corroborated from others. Hillary Clinton is evil, but Victoria Nuland is at least her equal. 

Just about everything he says in that video I've heard corroborated from others. 

Hillary Clinton is evil, but Victoria Nuland is at least her equal. 

Dude had a few inaccuracies and omissions in his presentation that make question him and his material.

inflammable
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borg wrote:
I have been following Sachs for a few weeks and still don't know quite what to make of him. I'm always suspicious of some kind of...

I have been following Sachs for a few weeks and still don't know quite what to make of him. I'm always suspicious of some kind of underlying fealty when anyone speaks out but so far I don't have anything. What he says sounds entirely plausible if not mostly factual. He's pretty quick to point the finger at the US for other foreign policy issues but it doesn't mean he's wrong.

The democrats, especially since Trump's 2016 victory, have become just as anti Russia as republicans ever used to be. I am glad he brought up Victoria Nuland as I have heard the same things from other sources like Glenn Greenwald. 

Just about everything he says in that video I've heard corroborated from others. Hillary Clinton is evil, but Victoria Nuland is at least her equal. 

Just about everything he says in that video I've heard corroborated from others. 

Hillary Clinton is evil, but Victoria Nuland is at least her equal. 

Spoonguy wrote:

Dude had a few inaccuracies and omissions in his presentation that make question him and his material.

I'd appreciate it if you could share details on those, or if you have any videos with more info on the whole issue. 

Spoonguy
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3/6/2025 6:43pm
Just about everything he says in that video I've heard corroborated from others. Hillary Clinton is evil, but Victoria Nuland is at least her equal. 

Just about everything he says in that video I've heard corroborated from others. 

Hillary Clinton is evil, but Victoria Nuland is at least her equal. 

Spoonguy wrote:

Dude had a few inaccuracies and omissions in his presentation that make question him and his material.

I'd appreciate it if you could share details on those, or if you have any videos with more info on the whole issue. 

I'd appreciate it if you could share details on those, or if you have any videos with more info on the whole issue. 

The whole deal about NATO "not one inch closer" deal, Russia agreed to ease on that when NATO agreed to ease on Russia exports like natural gas and oil I have read. That's a pretty important ommission.

inflammable
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3/6/2025 6:56pm
Spoonguy wrote:

Dude had a few inaccuracies and omissions in his presentation that make question him and his material.

I'd appreciate it if you could share details on those, or if you have any videos with more info on the whole issue. 

I'd appreciate it if you could share details on those, or if you have any videos with more info on the whole issue. 

Spoonguy wrote:
The whole deal about NATO "not one inch closer" deal, Russia agreed to ease on that when NATO agreed to ease on Russia exports like natural...

The whole deal about NATO "not one inch closer" deal, Russia agreed to ease on that when NATO agreed to ease on Russia exports like natural gas and oil I have read. That's a pretty important ommission.

Could you share a source for that please? Not doubting you, but that's the first I've heard of it so I'd appreciate some more info on it 🙂

early
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3/7/2025 4:18am

Looks like Ukraine has been cut off from access to Maxar satellite imagery. Maxar is a commercial company that uses cameras mounted on US satellites that are apparently controlled by the US DoD. This comes as Ukraine was attacked by hundreds of Russian missiles and drones overnight.

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STVMCQN
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early wrote:
Looks like Ukraine has been cut off from access to Maxar satellite imagery. Maxar is a commercial company that uses cameras mounted on US satellites that...

Looks like Ukraine has been cut off from access to Maxar satellite imagery. Maxar is a commercial company that uses cameras mounted on US satellites that are apparently controlled by the US DoD. This comes as Ukraine was attacked by hundreds of Russian missiles and drones overnight.

So you’re saying our technology prolonged the war?

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early
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early wrote:
Looks like Ukraine has been cut off from access to Maxar satellite imagery. Maxar is a commercial company that uses cameras mounted on US satellites that...

Looks like Ukraine has been cut off from access to Maxar satellite imagery. Maxar is a commercial company that uses cameras mounted on US satellites that are apparently controlled by the US DoD. This comes as Ukraine was attacked by hundreds of Russian missiles and drones overnight.

STVMCQN wrote:

So you’re saying our technology prolonged the war?

Aided in the defense of a sovereign ally against a maniacal agressor? Yes

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FastEddy
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3/7/2025 7:04am Edited Date/Time 3/7/2025 7:29am
early wrote:
Looks like Ukraine has been cut off from access to Maxar satellite imagery. Maxar is a commercial company that uses cameras mounted on US satellites that...

Looks like Ukraine has been cut off from access to Maxar satellite imagery. Maxar is a commercial company that uses cameras mounted on US satellites that are apparently controlled by the US DoD. This comes as Ukraine was attacked by hundreds of Russian missiles and drones overnight.

Yep - any U.S. companies and commercial services providing satellite data to Ukraine were supposed to have stopped (even PL,BlackSky and Capella Space ). Also any of our contractors on the ground there were told to get out last weekend after the White house ordeal. Europe is now managing the war - it's all up to them.  Let's see who retaliates against the recent Russian strikes. 

Russia's Ministry reports claim....

From 1 to 7 March, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation carried out seven group strikes with high-precision weapons and strike drones, which destroyed the infrastructure of military airfields, ammunition depots, drone manufacturing shops, depots, and command posts for strike unmanned aerial vehicles, watercraft depots, temporary deployment areas of Ukrainian armed formations, nationalists, and foreign mercenaries. 

Moreover, last night, the Russian Armed Forces launched a group strike by high-precision long-range air-, sea-, and ground-based weapons as well as unmanned aerial vehicles at the gas and power infrastructure that supported the Ukrainian defence industry enterprises. The goal of the strike was achieved. All the targets were engaged.


 

. 

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AZ35
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3/7/2025 7:54am

Time for the EU to put on the big boy pants and start spending their own money.

 

REUTERS

BRUSSELS – European leaders on Thursday backed plans to spend more on defense and continue to stand by Ukraine in a world upended by President Donald Trump’s reversal of U.S. policies.

The European Union’s defense summit in Brussels took place amid fears that Russia, emboldened by its war in Ukraine, may attack an EU country next and that Europe can no longer rely on the U.S. to come to its aid.

“Today we have shown that the European Union is rising to the challenge, building the Europe of defense and standing with Ukraine shoulder to shoulder,” the chairman of the meeting, Antonio Costa, told reporters.

EU leaders hailed the European Commission’s proposals this week to give them fiscal flexibility on defense spending, and to jointly borrow up to $160 billion to lend to EU governments to spend on their militaries.

In a joint statement agreed by all 27 member states, the leaders called on their ministers to examine these proposals in detail urgently.

“Europe must take up this challenge, this arms race. And it must win it,” Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said at the special defense summit in Brussels.

“Europe as a whole is truly capable of winning any military, financial, economic confrontation with Russia – we are simply stronger,” Tusk said.

French President Emmanuel Macron, who on Wednesday had told French voters that Russia was a threat to France and Europe, said all this was just a first step.

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inflammable
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AZ35 wrote:
Time for the EU to put on the big boy pants and start spending their own money. REUTERSBRUSSELS – European leaders on Thursday backed plans to spend...

Time for the EU to put on the big boy pants and start spending their own money.

 

REUTERS

BRUSSELS – European leaders on Thursday backed plans to spend more on defense and continue to stand by Ukraine in a world upended by President Donald Trump’s reversal of U.S. policies.

The European Union’s defense summit in Brussels took place amid fears that Russia, emboldened by its war in Ukraine, may attack an EU country next and that Europe can no longer rely on the U.S. to come to its aid.

“Today we have shown that the European Union is rising to the challenge, building the Europe of defense and standing with Ukraine shoulder to shoulder,” the chairman of the meeting, Antonio Costa, told reporters.

EU leaders hailed the European Commission’s proposals this week to give them fiscal flexibility on defense spending, and to jointly borrow up to $160 billion to lend to EU governments to spend on their militaries.

In a joint statement agreed by all 27 member states, the leaders called on their ministers to examine these proposals in detail urgently.

“Europe must take up this challenge, this arms race. And it must win it,” Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said at the special defense summit in Brussels.

“Europe as a whole is truly capable of winning any military, financial, economic confrontation with Russia – we are simply stronger,” Tusk said.

French President Emmanuel Macron, who on Wednesday had told French voters that Russia was a threat to France and Europe, said all this was just a first step.

WOW, that really highlights how European countries have been neglecting their own military capabilities due to expecting the US to be their main military force. 

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M1000
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3/7/2025 9:41am

Completely understandable if you haven't,  but you guys have never heard about  Victoria Nuland?

Victoria Nuland = John McCains adopted daughter…… 😜the apple doesn’t fall far. Perpetual warmongers. 

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M1000
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AZ35 wrote:
Time for the EU to put on the big boy pants and start spending their own money. REUTERSBRUSSELS – European leaders on Thursday backed plans to spend...

Time for the EU to put on the big boy pants and start spending their own money.

 

REUTERS

BRUSSELS – European leaders on Thursday backed plans to spend more on defense and continue to stand by Ukraine in a world upended by President Donald Trump’s reversal of U.S. policies.

The European Union’s defense summit in Brussels took place amid fears that Russia, emboldened by its war in Ukraine, may attack an EU country next and that Europe can no longer rely on the U.S. to come to its aid.

“Today we have shown that the European Union is rising to the challenge, building the Europe of defense and standing with Ukraine shoulder to shoulder,” the chairman of the meeting, Antonio Costa, told reporters.

EU leaders hailed the European Commission’s proposals this week to give them fiscal flexibility on defense spending, and to jointly borrow up to $160 billion to lend to EU governments to spend on their militaries.

In a joint statement agreed by all 27 member states, the leaders called on their ministers to examine these proposals in detail urgently.

“Europe must take up this challenge, this arms race. And it must win it,” Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said at the special defense summit in Brussels.

“Europe as a whole is truly capable of winning any military, financial, economic confrontation with Russia – we are simply stronger,” Tusk said.

French President Emmanuel Macron, who on Wednesday had told French voters that Russia was a threat to France and Europe, said all this was just a first step.

WOW, that really highlights how European countries have been neglecting their own military capabilities due to expecting the US to be their main military force. 

True, now you see how socialist values rise, when you don’t need spend big dollars on defense. The money goes elsewhere, to social programs. After a few generations, forget history of there nation. 

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