How would the Pro-Circuit 250F's

newmann
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 2:50am
stack up against a well built 250 2 stroke with the same rider turning laps on each bike. DC did some comparisons at one point and the 2 stroke was a couple seconds faster per lap, but weren't those stock bikes? Certainly track conditions would favor one or the other but over the course of a season and 12 different tracks it could make for some really good racing for the fans.
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wardy
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8/4/2010 6:42pm
didn't a 250 win against 450's a few years back on a sand track.

thier hochy poke test was nothing more then bullshit, it's NO!!!! damnit your likemy kid!

Keep asking maybe they will change thier mind.....

i just make the kid clean his room.

Smile

ATKpilot99
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8/4/2010 6:45pm
Jlaw rode a yz 250 2stroke back to back against a yz 250f and had better lap times on the 2 stroke .
Brent
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8/4/2010 6:48pm
At the dawn of the automobile, I'm sure some people held on to their horse and buggy like grim death too...



.
SwapperMX
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8/4/2010 6:56pm
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over a a factory level 250 two stroke. And I am saying this as a die hard 2 stroke fan.

Keep on fighting the good fight though buddy. !!

The Shop

ATKpilot99
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8/4/2010 6:57pm
SwapperMX wrote:
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over...
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over a a factory level 250 two stroke. And I am saying this as a die hard 2 stroke fan.

Keep on fighting the good fight though buddy. !!
Then why was Jlaw faster on the 2 stroke ?
newmann
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8/4/2010 7:03pm
You gotta admit Honda and possibly some other OEM's showed their yellow stripes when they about faced and wouldn't even let the women compete heads up on the national level after DC came on here and told the world the OEMs had given him that class.
haydos25
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8/4/2010 7:14pm
they've been racing the 2 strokes against the 4 strokes in New Zealand for a couple of years and they recently did it here for our nationals. Out of the few people that raced the 2 stroke they were mainly older riders who knew how to ride them properly. Off the start they were defintely competitive but you guessed it, over the course of a moto or a series the 4 strokes continually pushed to the front.

They are easier to ride faster for a longer period of time. Thats a fact.
Sully
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8/4/2010 7:23pm
SwapperMX wrote:
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over...
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over a a factory level 250 two stroke. And I am saying this as a die hard 2 stroke fan.

Keep on fighting the good fight though buddy. !!
I seem to remember Bubba beating all but one factory 450 a couple years ago on a factory level 250 two stroke.
8/4/2010 7:46pm
you cant believe everything you read fellas. i can tell you this, I've compared my 125 vs 250 lap times often and most often there is a one second difference and can on occasion have matching lap times. but you can believe me when i say moto is 90% rider it has very little to do with the bike. every time i swing my leg over my 125 i spaaaaaaank 450's, ass all the while making it sing the most beautiful songs you've ever heard.one of the best feelings in moto, makes you giddy for days, 125 funnest bike ever made, , many many examples in the past of smaller bike showing people the fast way around a moto track we don't need people posting lap times. i'm sure bighead1 would have told you this a million times so why ain't you guys listening
8/4/2010 7:50pm
SwapperMX wrote:
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over...
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over a a factory level 250 two stroke. And I am saying this as a die hard 2 stroke fan.

Keep on fighting the good fight though buddy. !!
Sully wrote:
I seem to remember Bubba beating all but one factory 450 a couple years ago on a factory level 250 two stroke.
rc beat all of them on his smoker. as a matter of fact the last yr chad and ricky rode smokers they won championships.
Bill163
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8/4/2010 8:06pm Edited Date/Time 8/4/2010 10:31pm
Brent wrote:
At the dawn of the automobile, I'm sure some people held on to their horse and buggy like grim death too... .[img]http://www.realestaterag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/broken_record.jpg[/img]
At the dawn of the automobile, I'm sure some people held on to their horse and buggy like grim death too...



.
Sorry the 4 stroke engine is old school technology not 2 strokes.Just because they make them rev to the moon and put good suspension on them and have slick marketing for the sheep to cover the glaring problems like high unit costs,excessive weight and high repair bills among other things is not advanced in my book.



Everybody can bag on Newmann for his 4 stroke rants but he's right 99% of the time.
Cygnus
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8/4/2010 8:10pm
Lap times don't mean shit in MX. Unless it's during a race.
500guy
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8/4/2010 8:12pm
if everyone switched to 350's would it mark the return of the 250 2strk ?

Seems like it might be a much better match.
8/4/2010 8:13pm
newmann wrote:
You gotta admit Honda and possibly some other OEM's showed their yellow stripes when they about faced and wouldn't even let the women compete heads up...
You gotta admit Honda and possibly some other OEM's showed their yellow stripes when they about faced and wouldn't even let the women compete heads up on the national level after DC came on here and told the world the OEMs had given him that class.
BINGO they knew the one openly practicing on it would def have the advantage
8/4/2010 8:17pm
Might be fun to see Barcia ride the bike Stanton raced last year in the two stroke event. If nothing else, it would make for a great soundtrack...... Yes Yes, I know it will never happen but since we are speaking in theory....Wink
calimxer91
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8/4/2010 8:19pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2011 8:14am
I don't know since i've never ridden a pc 250 back to back with a 250 2 stroke.
SwapperMX
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8/4/2010 8:23pm
SwapperMX wrote:
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over...
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over a a factory level 250 two stroke. And I am saying this as a die hard 2 stroke fan.

Keep on fighting the good fight though buddy. !!
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Then why was Jlaw faster on the 2 stroke ?
JLaw rode Standard bikes back to back. Have you seen the video. He basically comes out and says the standard YZ250F is a shitbox and cant believe how slow it was. This was when he was racing a 250F himself.
8/4/2010 9:57pm
SwapperMX wrote:
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over...
I can guarantee you that no matter which track it was, or which rider it was, the rider would be faster on a factory 250F over a a factory level 250 two stroke. And I am saying this as a die hard 2 stroke fan.

Keep on fighting the good fight though buddy. !!
Sully wrote:
I seem to remember Bubba beating all but one factory 450 a couple years ago on a factory level 250 two stroke.
i seem to remember Villopoto beating all the 450's on his 250f at the mxon
Sully
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8/4/2010 9:59pm
mxpilot43 wrote:
rc beat all of them on his smoker. as a matter of fact the last yr chad and ricky rode smokers they won championships.
I totally forgot about RC an a 2-stroke against 4-strokes. Hell, he passed Everts' works 4-stroke on a 2-stroke at the MXdN.
JB 19
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8/4/2010 10:10pm Edited Date/Time 8/4/2010 10:14pm
They guys who seem to yell the loudest about this stuff remind me of guys who don't ride much. If you actually ride a well setup 4 stroke and well setup 2 stroke the difference in power delivery and handling is a real eye opener.

The 4 stroke just tracks straight and almost feels as if it sucks itself to the ground. 250F's and 250 2 strokes are comparable in weight and the 250F smokes the 2 stroke so bad in handling that it is tough to make up the difference with the 15% power advantage that the 2 stroke has.

I would say with full built factory bikes the power issue is much smaller because the 250F's are rumored to be making 45+ horsepower at the factory level.

2 strokes separate the riders more because they are harder to ride. Takes more skill. But that isn't what this argument is about. Or is it?
loftyair
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8/4/2010 10:38pm
If were talking factory level bikes, then the 2-stroke would have the modern chassis and suspension, and a 10-year-newer motor. The only place the half-displacement bike would be at disadvantage is on a long start, after that, the 2 would smoke the 4!
Mrtf
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8/4/2010 10:56pm
that about lawrence was faster on a 2stroke was because the track was Perris or Milstone ( dont remember). On a national track he would be way off pace with a 2stroke
Kinetic1
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8/5/2010 2:39am
JB 19 wrote:
They guys who seem to yell the loudest about this stuff remind me of guys who don't ride much. If you actually ride a well setup...
They guys who seem to yell the loudest about this stuff remind me of guys who don't ride much. If you actually ride a well setup 4 stroke and well setup 2 stroke the difference in power delivery and handling is a real eye opener.

The 4 stroke just tracks straight and almost feels as if it sucks itself to the ground. 250F's and 250 2 strokes are comparable in weight and the 250F smokes the 2 stroke so bad in handling that it is tough to make up the difference with the 15% power advantage that the 2 stroke has.

I would say with full built factory bikes the power issue is much smaller because the 250F's are rumored to be making 45+ horsepower at the factory level.

2 strokes separate the riders more because they are harder to ride. Takes more skill. But that isn't what this argument is about. Or is it?
Funny, every time I ride a four stroke (which I do enjoy) the first thing I notice is the handling sucks compared to my RM250. I was faster overall on my KTM 4t though.
FreshTopEnd
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8/5/2010 8:12am Edited Date/Time 8/5/2010 8:12am
Whose stopping anyone from racing a two stroke at any level below pro? There's only about 100-200 guys who are being denied, and none of them seem to be complaining.
danman
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8/5/2010 8:14am
calimxer91 wrote:
I don't know since i've never ridden a pc 250 back to back with a 250 2 stroke.
Not sure this is true, but there really needs to be some changes in rules. There are way too many gray areas.
The FIM/AMA need to either bring back the full on works bikes, or go to more of a solid production rule. If they would go to a more solid production rule, they should bring back the rule about being able to purchase any factory riders bikes for $x.
Everyone says that motocross is 90% rider, which I believe, so why not put everyone on bikes that are close to what's available at every dealership?
BK
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8/5/2010 8:22am Edited Date/Time 8/5/2010 8:22am
calimxer91 wrote:
I don't know since i've never ridden a pc 250 back to back with a 250 2 stroke.
danman wrote:
Not sure this is true, but there really needs to be some changes in rules. There are way too many gray areas. The FIM/AMA need to...
Not sure this is true, but there really needs to be some changes in rules. There are way too many gray areas.
The FIM/AMA need to either bring back the full on works bikes, or go to more of a solid production rule. If they would go to a more solid production rule, they should bring back the rule about being able to purchase any factory riders bikes for $x.
Everyone says that motocross is 90% rider, which I believe, so why not put everyone on bikes that are close to what's available at every dealership?
We don't want them just riding stock bikes because some of the advancements they use in racing, eventually trickle down to you and I on the stock bikes we buy.
pie8man
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8/5/2010 8:35am
I bet if you put a 10 pound flywheel on your 2 stroke to match the rotating weight of the 4 it would make the bike significantly more smooth, trackable and easier to ride.... But wait then it would ride just like a 4 stroke with a massive gyro in it but just sound different. Get over it... its a motor!!!
I believe the rules say that you must maintain the stock bore and stroke unless specifically changing the CC's of a bike.

Poached from the 2010 AMA rulebook

I found this interesting for the DB level in 2011; 12. Exhaust System (94 Db/A beginning 2011; see appendix 6.2)

1. Engines (Modified Classes)
All classes are considered modified unless stated
otherwise. Motorcycles must use the crankcases of the
production motorcycle engine. The use of sleeving,
stroking or boring to change displacement classes is
allowed. The actual displacement of a motor must be
stamped on the side of the cylinder or engine case. The
displacement of the motorcycle or minicycle may not
exceed the class limit. The frame with which a rider has
qualified may not be changed, though engines may be.
Piston displacement may be measured using either of the
following formulas:

It would appear that the only time it is permitted to bore/stroke a Bike is to match a modified CC displacement class.
danman
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8/5/2010 11:48am Edited Date/Time 8/5/2010 11:49am
calimxer91 wrote:
I don't know since i've never ridden a pc 250 back to back with a 250 2 stroke.
danman wrote:
Not sure this is true, but there really needs to be some changes in rules. There are way too many gray areas. The FIM/AMA need to...
Not sure this is true, but there really needs to be some changes in rules. There are way too many gray areas.
The FIM/AMA need to either bring back the full on works bikes, or go to more of a solid production rule. If they would go to a more solid production rule, they should bring back the rule about being able to purchase any factory riders bikes for $x.
Everyone says that motocross is 90% rider, which I believe, so why not put everyone on bikes that are close to what's available at every dealership?
BK wrote:
We don't want them just riding stock bikes because some of the advancements they use in racing, eventually trickle down to you and I on the...
We don't want them just riding stock bikes because some of the advancements they use in racing, eventually trickle down to you and I on the stock bikes we buy.
I agree. I would love to just have the works bikes come back. Yes, it doesn't make it fair for non-factories, but boy those bikes were cool eye candy.
I just think they need to go all one way or the other. It's kind of like the privateer rules.
BLAHBLAH
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8/5/2010 11:58am
Stoop wrote:
i seem to remember Villopoto beating all the 450's on his 250f at the mxon
It was a glorious day..................
Lightning78
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8/5/2010 12:06pm
calimxer91 wrote:
I don't know since i've never ridden a pc 250 back to back with a 250 2 stroke.
danman wrote:
Not sure this is true, but there really needs to be some changes in rules. There are way too many gray areas. The FIM/AMA need to...
Not sure this is true, but there really needs to be some changes in rules. There are way too many gray areas.
The FIM/AMA need to either bring back the full on works bikes, or go to more of a solid production rule. If they would go to a more solid production rule, they should bring back the rule about being able to purchase any factory riders bikes for $x.
Everyone says that motocross is 90% rider, which I believe, so why not put everyone on bikes that are close to what's available at every dealership?
Beacuse we NEED factory level bikes to develope and test the next few years parts and evolution of the dirtbike in a real world racing environment not just at teh all Japan nationals or just the GP's ...... without factories being able to run this stuff bike developement would slow to a crawl....not that it is going much faster these days but it would be way worse if factory parts weren't allowed or had a cap.

Sure its not an equal advantage to privateers but especially with the 450's anyone could EASILY build a 450 that could compete for the win week in and week out in MX and in some cases SX ....the 250f is another ball of wax but for the 450 it can be done very easily.

Yes 250 2 strokes used to beat the 450's and they still could with a 10 year update especially in SX but the top level guys and even mid level riders are not paid nor are they allowed to compete on them. Reason the occasional 250 2 stroke cannot compete when it come is is because it is usually a high digit privateer trying to qualify, put a top 10 guy that knows how to ride one and it would be a much different story.

Honda got 56HP out of RC's last cr250 thats easily on par with factory level 450 bikes they dont build the engines just tailor the power to the riders style and what they want. I do get the "way they make HP" argument but I still think that a 250 2 stroke in the hands of the right rider could easily do some damage....the 450's haven't gotten THAT much better engine wise....chassis and suspension? Probably but give that stuff to a 250 2 stroke and see what happens.

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