Roczen wanting more speed

Tyler D
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2/24/2025 12:01am
Webb’s first test on the YZF was aboard Eli’s bike. He reported it was too powerful for him, it needed toning down. In the 450 class, it isn’t...

Webb’s first test on the YZF was aboard Eli’s bike. 
He reported it was too powerful for him, it needed toning down. 

In the 450 class, it isn’t a game of ‘power’ to make lap times.

Tyler D wrote:

I'll bet you there are plenty of times around a lap where that TPS reads 100. It adds up. 

If that were the case, they’d all be riding fire-breathing 75hp monsters. Making more power from these motors is EASY. But they don’t need it. Also the...

If that were the case, they’d all be riding fire-breathing 75hp monsters. Making more power from these motors is EASY. But they don’t need it. 

Also the 500cc class wouldn’t have been scrapped in favour of 250s being the premier bikes. 

There’s only so much power that can be used on dirt and typically a 450 has enough. 
Pro bikes sure may have a bit more power but bundles more refinement to suit their pilot’s needs. 

It's not necessarily linear and zero sum like that. Yammy likely has less opportunity cost to get that tractability. Could be easier to maintain topend when you need it while building in the low end that's obviously critical on a technical sx track. They do run paddle tires at times for a reason. 

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2/24/2025 2:15am
Tyler D wrote:

I'll bet you there are plenty of times around a lap where that TPS reads 100. It adds up. 

If that were the case, they’d all be riding fire-breathing 75hp monsters. Making more power from these motors is EASY. But they don’t need it. Also the...

If that were the case, they’d all be riding fire-breathing 75hp monsters. Making more power from these motors is EASY. But they don’t need it. 

Also the 500cc class wouldn’t have been scrapped in favour of 250s being the premier bikes. 

There’s only so much power that can be used on dirt and typically a 450 has enough. 
Pro bikes sure may have a bit more power but bundles more refinement to suit their pilot’s needs. 

Tyler D wrote:
It's not necessarily linear and zero sum like that. Yammy likely has less opportunity cost to get that tractability. Could be easier to maintain topend when...

It's not necessarily linear and zero sum like that. Yammy likely has less opportunity cost to get that tractability. Could be easier to maintain topend when you need it while building in the low end that's obviously critical on a technical sx track. They do run paddle tires at times for a reason. 

Can you ask Cooper Webb why he said Eli’s bike was too fast and he wanted a mellower one? 

He’d be killing this competition if he was on Eli’s faster bike, right??

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CPR
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2/24/2025 3:06am

Roczen has gotten shit in the past for making excuses, this weekend he said he needed to find more speed, HE needed to find speed, not the bike. Was great to hear him talking like that. Bring it on Kenny.

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2/24/2025 3:41am
CPR wrote:
Roczen has gotten shit in the past for making excuses, this weekend he said he needed to find more speed, HE needed to find speed, not...

Roczen has gotten shit in the past for making excuses, this weekend he said he needed to find more speed, HE needed to find speed, not the bike. Was great to hear him talking like that. Bring it on Kenny.

I feel like this is the best version of Ken we've seen in his career. He seems happy, has a positive attitude, and he's hauling ass at the front of the pack. I wish that lapper deal didn't happen because he'd be right in the thick of the championship hunt, but shit happens. 

It's been fun to watch. I hope he stays healthy & runs some outdoor races this Summer.

10

The Shop

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CPR wrote:
Roczen has gotten shit in the past for making excuses, this weekend he said he needed to find more speed, HE needed to find speed, not...

Roczen has gotten shit in the past for making excuses, this weekend he said he needed to find more speed, HE needed to find speed, not the bike. Was great to hear him talking like that. Bring it on Kenny.

The problem is that he got speed, it’s stamina he lacks and looking at his body he looks like one of the fittest riders out there.


Must be frustrating as he’ll being in that position where he obviously put in the work but the body won’t respond.

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Spoonguy
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2/24/2025 4:35am

It is not as extreme as so many are stating. Roczen stated he needs a little more speed, to beat Webb and Sexton. Every other supercross racer in the world racing now, he has covered. It is not like he sucks.

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Tyler D
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2/24/2025 5:51am
If that were the case, they’d all be riding fire-breathing 75hp monsters. Making more power from these motors is EASY. But they don’t need it. Also the...

If that were the case, they’d all be riding fire-breathing 75hp monsters. Making more power from these motors is EASY. But they don’t need it. 

Also the 500cc class wouldn’t have been scrapped in favour of 250s being the premier bikes. 

There’s only so much power that can be used on dirt and typically a 450 has enough. 
Pro bikes sure may have a bit more power but bundles more refinement to suit their pilot’s needs. 

Tyler D wrote:
It's not necessarily linear and zero sum like that. Yammy likely has less opportunity cost to get that tractability. Could be easier to maintain topend when...

It's not necessarily linear and zero sum like that. Yammy likely has less opportunity cost to get that tractability. Could be easier to maintain topend when you need it while building in the low end that's obviously critical on a technical sx track. They do run paddle tires at times for a reason. 

Can you ask Cooper Webb why he said Eli’s bike was too fast and he wanted a mellower one? He’d be killing this competition if he was...

Can you ask Cooper Webb why he said Eli’s bike was too fast and he wanted a mellower one? 

He’d be killing this competition if he was on Eli’s faster bike, right??

Hes lighter and uses the clutch less

Tomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. 

Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. 

Fast is a colloquialism used here to describe a general characteristic but there are actually multiple dimensions That's also comparing two Yamahas. Any pro would take more at WOT if it doesn't sacrifice rideability at part throttle. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Yamaha engine package very likely is more dynamic in this regard than the Suzuki. 

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OT
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2/24/2025 6:01am

Considering he had a DNF, his average finish so far this year is crazy Screenshot 2025-02-24 140004.png?VersionId=4tJjW1622FZUYMnOSyvtIKJ9cTPBM

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2/24/2025 6:16am Edited Date/Time 2/24/2025 6:18am

Roczen's 450 can push out just as much as Tomac's 450. With that said, it's a back art setting up a bike and riding it to its maximum potential. We will never see that as the track do not cater for it.

These top level riders are unique, they differ from each other and demand different settings from each other to achieve their best.

Then each weekend, density and pressure altitude differs, the soil composition that they race on differs, so to say Tomac's bike, or Jett's bike is better is crap. It is down to the rider and his crew to set that thing up for the event. At this factory level it is the RIDER THAT MAKES THE DIFFERANCE AND NOT THE BIKE.

Roczen does not need speed! He needs to be smarter than Webb at this point.

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davistld01
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2/24/2025 7:09am Edited Date/Time 2/24/2025 7:10am
Break295 wrote:
I think Kenny finds the speed and is in this title hunt til the end.Kenny seems to be enjoying himself more now than in years past...

I think Kenny finds the speed and is in this title hunt til the end.

Kenny seems to be enjoying himself more now than in years past. Makes me wonder if competing (and winning) on an old bike has reinvigorated his confidence or something. Either way, I’m a CW2 fan and find myself rooting for KR just as much.

Took the words out of my mouth, Break295! I'm a Webb fan, but will always be rooting for Roczen too. 

I think, unfortunately, the extra speed he's searching for is simply unobtainable without going back in time. Kenny has probably gone through more physical trauma than any other rider on the track...and certainly more than the current crop of potential top-5 riders. Although his healing was almost miraculous, as was his returning to race at this level...it absolutely has to have had some lasting effects that limit what he can do vs. the younger guys who are at their peak, and have never experienced anything close to a career ending injury. 

That said, I hope his future performances prove me wrong. I'd love to see him on the top box a time or two before this season wraps up.

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ganny
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2/24/2025 9:58am

Always been a fan of Roczen, but whatever additional speed his pulls out of his ass will be matched or exceeded by Webb and Sexton

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seth505
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Tyler D wrote:
It's not necessarily linear and zero sum like that. Yammy likely has less opportunity cost to get that tractability. Could be easier to maintain topend when...

It's not necessarily linear and zero sum like that. Yammy likely has less opportunity cost to get that tractability. Could be easier to maintain topend when you need it while building in the low end that's obviously critical on a technical sx track. They do run paddle tires at times for a reason. 

Can you ask Cooper Webb why he said Eli’s bike was too fast and he wanted a mellower one? He’d be killing this competition if he was...

Can you ask Cooper Webb why he said Eli’s bike was too fast and he wanted a mellower one? 

He’d be killing this competition if he was on Eli’s faster bike, right??

Tyler D wrote:
Hes lighter and uses the clutch lessTomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. Fast is a colloquialism used here to...

Hes lighter and uses the clutch less

Tomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. 

Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. 

Fast is a colloquialism used here to describe a general characteristic but there are actually multiple dimensions That's also comparing two Yamahas. Any pro would take more at WOT if it doesn't sacrifice rideability at part throttle. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Yamaha engine package very likely is more dynamic in this regard than the Suzuki. 

Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as toning down his bikes (even when he was on Yamaha).

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Tyler D
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Can you ask Cooper Webb why he said Eli’s bike was too fast and he wanted a mellower one? He’d be killing this competition if he was...

Can you ask Cooper Webb why he said Eli’s bike was too fast and he wanted a mellower one? 

He’d be killing this competition if he was on Eli’s faster bike, right??

Tyler D wrote:
Hes lighter and uses the clutch lessTomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. Fast is a colloquialism used here to...

Hes lighter and uses the clutch less

Tomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. 

Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. 

Fast is a colloquialism used here to describe a general characteristic but there are actually multiple dimensions That's also comparing two Yamahas. Any pro would take more at WOT if it doesn't sacrifice rideability at part throttle. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Yamaha engine package very likely is more dynamic in this regard than the Suzuki. 

seth505 wrote:
Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as...

Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as toning down his bikes (even when he was on Yamaha).

I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not *necessarily* zero sum. It's not necessarily a linear sliding scale between fast and slow. On a more advanced bike it's very likely you can have both, where roczen has to choose one or the other - to use an extreme illustration. 

 

Even jt Weege Matthes agreed he was at a disadvantage technologically on the review show. 

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shortty761
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2/24/2025 12:35pm

4 words. Fast twitch muscle fibers. Ricky said it best 😎

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Tyler D
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shortty761 wrote:

4 words. Fast twitch muscle fibers. Ricky said it best 😎

You're prob being sarcastic but I think it's mental, dopamine related. Eli is pretty explosive he doesn't bleed off speed late. 

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bowl
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Dude needs more stamina. 

Has plenty  of speed first part of race.

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seth505
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Tyler D wrote:
Hes lighter and uses the clutch lessTomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. Fast is a colloquialism used here to...

Hes lighter and uses the clutch less

Tomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. 

Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. 

Fast is a colloquialism used here to describe a general characteristic but there are actually multiple dimensions That's also comparing two Yamahas. Any pro would take more at WOT if it doesn't sacrifice rideability at part throttle. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Yamaha engine package very likely is more dynamic in this regard than the Suzuki. 

seth505 wrote:
Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as...

Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as toning down his bikes (even when he was on Yamaha).

Tyler D wrote:
I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not...

I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not *necessarily* zero sum. It's not necessarily a linear sliding scale between fast and slow. On a more advanced bike it's very likely you can have both, where roczen has to choose one or the other - to use an extreme illustration. 

 

Even jt Weege Matthes agreed he was at a disadvantage technologically on the review show. 

Ah, I'd agree they can probably offer more options but that's not always best either.  Twisted Dev. can definitely do more than a few options though as well.

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Mavetism
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bowl wrote:

Dude needs more stamina. 

Has plenty  of speed first part of race.

I know a lot of people are sick of hearing it, but the dude shouldn't even be out there battling for wins. That amount of surgeries and antibiotics in the short amount of time definitely take a toll on your body. Also he doesn't fade like he did a couple years ago, he just is a tiny bit off of the current top two riders. It's not like 2021, where he had everyone else covered in speed but only had the stamina for 60% of the race, he has stamina for the whole race but isn't fast enough to beat Webb and Sexton straight up. If he finds that extra speed and starts winning he could definitely still be a factor in this title.

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1
2/24/2025 1:34pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2025 1:34pm
Tyler D wrote:
Hes lighter and uses the clutch lessTomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. Fast is a colloquialism used here to...

Hes lighter and uses the clutch less

Tomac said his bike isn't "fast" enough. 

Tomac is generally a faster rider than Webb. 

Fast is a colloquialism used here to describe a general characteristic but there are actually multiple dimensions That's also comparing two Yamahas. Any pro would take more at WOT if it doesn't sacrifice rideability at part throttle. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Yamaha engine package very likely is more dynamic in this regard than the Suzuki. 

seth505 wrote:
Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as...

Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as toning down his bikes (even when he was on Yamaha).

Tyler D wrote:
I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not...

I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not *necessarily* zero sum. It's not necessarily a linear sliding scale between fast and slow. On a more advanced bike it's very likely you can have both, where roczen has to choose one or the other - to use an extreme illustration. 

 

Even jt Weege Matthes agreed he was at a disadvantage technologically on the review show. 

Based on what? 

The fact the YZF motor is reverse cyl head? 
Or based on it being ‘newer’? 

Not a lot has changed mechanically on these engines for a good number of years. The physicalities of the metal parts are all pretty much the same. 
The real steps forward that have been made are with electronics. 
Particularly in the 450 class , where HP isn’t hard to come by. 

Do you mean Yamaha can do more with electronics than HEP & Twisted can?

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Magoofan
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2/24/2025 2:16pm
bowl wrote:

Dude needs more stamina. 

Has plenty  of speed first part of race.

Mavetism wrote:
I know a lot of people are sick of hearing it, but the dude shouldn't even be out there battling for wins. That amount of surgeries...

I know a lot of people are sick of hearing it, but the dude shouldn't even be out there battling for wins. That amount of surgeries and antibiotics in the short amount of time definitely take a toll on your body. Also he doesn't fade like he did a couple years ago, he just is a tiny bit off of the current top two riders. It's not like 2021, where he had everyone else covered in speed but only had the stamina for 60% of the race, he has stamina for the whole race but isn't fast enough to beat Webb and Sexton straight up. If he finds that extra speed and starts winning he could definitely still be a factor in this title.

It's a short attention span around here and people forget.       You are correct.    I still find it simply amazing he was able to come back from the injuries he's had and he's still a front runner vying for wins. 

 

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Rotaholic
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When you look at his qualifying results he's off by a fair amount, but at race he exceeds where his speed is at

Phillip_Lamb
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Rotaholic wrote:
I think that last little bit of speed Roczen is chasing will be hard to find, the KTM group have an amazing amount of data and...

I think that last little bit of speed Roczen is chasing will be hard to find, the KTM group have an amazing amount of data and fast riders to learn from as does Yamaha. Unfortunately Kenny isnt going to find anything from Chiz and Colt. I think he could win this with just being consistent, apart from the lapper incident he has been solid. 

theres been a few videos coming out that show the riders split screen and it tracks both and their time difference. 

from arlington? roczen and secton were compared and it was pretty easy to notice how Roczen was doing small things like clipping landing vs landing smooth, it wasnt a suprice how sexton was picking up a half second. 

but aside from there just watching the last moto of the triple crown he just that extra bit of aggression

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bens 152
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2/24/2025 6:44pm
Rotaholic wrote:
I think that last little bit of speed Roczen is chasing will be hard to find, the KTM group have an amazing amount of data and...

I think that last little bit of speed Roczen is chasing will be hard to find, the KTM group have an amazing amount of data and fast riders to learn from as does Yamaha. Unfortunately Kenny isnt going to find anything from Chiz and Colt. I think he could win this with just being consistent, apart from the lapper incident he has been solid. 

theres been a few videos coming out that show the riders split screen and it tracks both and their time difference. from arlington? roczen and secton were...

theres been a few videos coming out that show the riders split screen and it tracks both and their time difference. 

from arlington? roczen and secton were compared and it was pretty easy to notice how Roczen was doing small things like clipping landing vs landing smooth, it wasnt a suprice how sexton was picking up a half second. 

but aside from there just watching the last moto of the triple crown he just that extra bit of aggression

Is this just qualifying? It’d be interesting to focus in on the last laps of a main, the guys who are putting in the fastest laps vs a Kenny from the weekend for example. 

2/24/2025 9:29pm
Rotaholic wrote:
I think that last little bit of speed Roczen is chasing will be hard to find, the KTM group have an amazing amount of data and...

I think that last little bit of speed Roczen is chasing will be hard to find, the KTM group have an amazing amount of data and fast riders to learn from as does Yamaha. Unfortunately Kenny isnt going to find anything from Chiz and Colt. I think he could win this with just being consistent, apart from the lapper incident he has been solid. 

LOL

9
Tyler D
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2/24/2025 10:39pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2025 10:39pm
seth505 wrote:
Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as...

Tomac is a horrible example because he is not the norm, he wants a beastly bike that other pros don't.  Even Barcia has been quoted as toning down his bikes (even when he was on Yamaha).

Tyler D wrote:
I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not...

I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not *necessarily* zero sum. It's not necessarily a linear sliding scale between fast and slow. On a more advanced bike it's very likely you can have both, where roczen has to choose one or the other - to use an extreme illustration. 

 

Even jt Weege Matthes agreed he was at a disadvantage technologically on the review show. 

Based on what? The fact the YZF motor is reverse cyl head? Or based on it being ‘newer’? Not a lot has changed mechanically on these engines for a...

Based on what? 

The fact the YZF motor is reverse cyl head? 
Or based on it being ‘newer’? 

Not a lot has changed mechanically on these engines for a good number of years. The physicalities of the metal parts are all pretty much the same. 
The real steps forward that have been made are with electronics. 
Particularly in the 450 class , where HP isn’t hard to come by. 

Do you mean Yamaha can do more with electronics than HEP & Twisted can?

A lot of this is speculation. I'm just bench racing here. It's not a pride thing, just geeking out. 

Budget. Data acquisition. Prototyping. Valve angles. Port shapes. Cam grinds. Intake manifold and exhaust architecture Yes, probably electronics in general. Rod/stroke ratio. Crank weight.  Crankshaft placement. Antisquat/swingarm pivot placement. Frame flex characteristics.  

 

At minimum, If Twisted isn't doing CNC cylinder heads from blanks, there's room to improve. 

The disparity in this chart...you think it's just lobe profile and compression and a little bit too much port material? Nothing architectural at all?

 

10000828571000082856.jpg?VersionId=RB
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Tyler D
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2/24/2025 10:42pm
Rotaholic wrote:
I think that last little bit of speed Roczen is chasing will be hard to find, the KTM group have an amazing amount of data and...

I think that last little bit of speed Roczen is chasing will be hard to find, the KTM group have an amazing amount of data and fast riders to learn from as does Yamaha. Unfortunately Kenny isnt going to find anything from Chiz and Colt. I think he could win this with just being consistent, apart from the lapper incident he has been solid. 

theres been a few videos coming out that show the riders split screen and it tracks both and their time difference. from arlington? roczen and secton were...

theres been a few videos coming out that show the riders split screen and it tracks both and their time difference. 

from arlington? roczen and secton were compared and it was pretty easy to notice how Roczen was doing small things like clipping landing vs landing smooth, it wasnt a suprice how sexton was picking up a half second. 

but aside from there just watching the last moto of the triple crown he just that extra bit of aggression

O man don't go being all analytical you're gonna harsh ppls vibes in here. Somebody might even question your credentials for making observations like that. 

1
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250 cross
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3/2/2025 10:32am

Box checked.

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Tyler D
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3/2/2025 12:44pm

Suspension looked good. Bet his guy gets some good business 

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seth505
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3/2/2025 1:12pm

Awesome weekend for Kroc.  Daytona, a race you’re not winning if you’re not feeling great and/or if you’re bike isn’t working great.  

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1
3/2/2025 3:03pm Edited Date/Time 3/2/2025 3:51pm
Tyler D wrote:
I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not...

I understand that, what I'm saying is there's very likely more -headroom- to SHAPE the power characteristics with mitigated downsides to the riders desire. It's not *necessarily* zero sum. It's not necessarily a linear sliding scale between fast and slow. On a more advanced bike it's very likely you can have both, where roczen has to choose one or the other - to use an extreme illustration. 

 

Even jt Weege Matthes agreed he was at a disadvantage technologically on the review show. 

Based on what? The fact the YZF motor is reverse cyl head? Or based on it being ‘newer’? Not a lot has changed mechanically on these engines for a...

Based on what? 

The fact the YZF motor is reverse cyl head? 
Or based on it being ‘newer’? 

Not a lot has changed mechanically on these engines for a good number of years. The physicalities of the metal parts are all pretty much the same. 
The real steps forward that have been made are with electronics. 
Particularly in the 450 class , where HP isn’t hard to come by. 

Do you mean Yamaha can do more with electronics than HEP & Twisted can?

Tyler D wrote:
A lot of this is speculation. I'm just bench racing here. It's not a pride thing, just geeking out. Budget. Data acquisition. Prototyping. Valve angles. Port shapes...

A lot of this is speculation. I'm just bench racing here. It's not a pride thing, just geeking out. 

Budget. Data acquisition. Prototyping. Valve angles. Port shapes. Cam grinds. Intake manifold and exhaust architecture Yes, probably electronics in general. Rod/stroke ratio. Crank weight.  Crankshaft placement. Antisquat/swingarm pivot placement. Frame flex characteristics.  

 

At minimum, If Twisted isn't doing CNC cylinder heads from blanks, there's room to improve. 

The disparity in this chart...you think it's just lobe profile and compression and a little bit too much port material? Nothing architectural at all?

 

10000828571000082856.jpg?VersionId=RB

Note that there is almost zero difference in the area of the curve in the rev range that Kenny, a dude who is known to ride a gear higher than most and who is now running a 60 mph factory first gear, rides his bike.


If Twisted can get more torque where Kenny wants it, that’s far more important to raceable power than other makes having more overrev on a dyno. And the charts show the Zook producing more torque below 8k than several others.

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