Time for people to recognize coops speed.

FreshTopEnd
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I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems to need a few warm up laps to get going, but maybe that’s just being smart when a start isn’t there. 
 

Folks do come up with some “crafty” superficial notions to have hot takes though. 

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aees
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I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems...

I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems to need a few warm up laps to get going, but maybe that’s just being smart when a start isn’t there. 
 

Folks do come up with some “crafty” superficial notions to have hot takes though. 

I don't see Webb doing a Chase going from last to first. Or Tomac beast mode. Or like Jett being a second faster than everyone in time qualification. Or Roczen passing 15-20 people in the first lap in outdoors. 

Weege talked about on review show, Webb isn't known to anyone for speed, but rather race craft. 

If he wins this title, do anyone think it will be because he was the fastest rider where Chase couldn't keep up if they start 1 and 2. Or because Chase screws up? 

He isn't in general passing Chase, Eli or Jett. Nothing negative, just who he is/has been. 

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endurox
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2/10/2025 4:17pm

Web's 4 out of 5 championships are in odd number years.

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FreshTopEnd
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2/10/2025 5:14pm Edited Date/Time 2/10/2025 6:46pm
aees wrote:
I don't see Webb doing a Chase going from last to first. Or Tomac beast mode. Or like Jett being a second faster than everyone in...

I don't see Webb doing a Chase going from last to first. Or Tomac beast mode. Or like Jett being a second faster than everyone in time qualification. Or Roczen passing 15-20 people in the first lap in outdoors. 

Weege talked about on review show, Webb isn't known to anyone for speed, but rather race craft. 

If he wins this title, do anyone think it will be because he was the fastest rider where Chase couldn't keep up if they start 1 and 2. Or because Chase screws up? 

He isn't in general passing Chase, Eli or Jett. Nothing negative, just who he is/has been. 

Racecraft and speed are incompatible? He passes people and wins races because he’s slower?  Maybe he uses speed more judiciously to decide when to wick it up.

I wonder if this is a legacy take from when he and AC came out of amateurs as major rivals and AC was the golden child of the two. Racecraft has taken Webb far. 

This isn’t a hot take for Webb. I don’t really favor any one rider over another - I’m a fan of good racing where more than couple guys are mixing it up - and definitely it’s nice to have a bunch whose skill sets are balanced differently. 

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The Shop

resetjet
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Webb is a head case. But when he is on a mission and the track suits him,  he can do some serious damage.  Also,  mentally, he can block out the pain and exhaustion at the end of a moto and somehow push when others are fading.  That combined with his ability to turn on a dime in slow corners,  which is simply amazing.  

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USA
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2/10/2025 5:28pm Edited Date/Time 2/10/2025 5:28pm
I'm a Webb fan, but until this race, I wasn't convinced of his chances at the title. Sure, he "beat Jett straight up", but that was...

I'm a Webb fan, but until this race, I wasn't convinced of his chances at the title. Sure, he "beat Jett straight up", but that was a heat win. Heat wins aren't main wins. Riders will often not "send if" if they're 2nd or 3rd, and are easily in the main. The same race where he beat Jett in his heat, he got a bad start in the main, and didn't make much progress toward the front. This race, however... going from 12th to 2nd (albeit with some help)... he made a believer out of me. He ran down Ando and Roczen (and probably several other big names) straight up, and passed them. His speed through the whoops has gotten better this year, but this race, his whoops speed was very un-Webb like. Faster than everyone but Mookie. There's a good chance he could have run down Sexton. Mookie was on another level. Nobody was catching him.

Webb's had some lackluster years. He seems to respond to opportunities. He's not going to push things just to get from 7th to 5th. Going from 3rd to 2nd, however, pays much higher dividends, and he'll push himself to take advantage of those opportunities.

So how did Jett and Webb finish in the overall for that race?

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USA
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Who has ever said Webb doesn't have speed? 

Tumic wrote:
Me and plenty of others. Go ahead and prove me wrong but I’m confident that on most of the times he line up against Chase, Tomac...

Me and plenty of others. Go ahead and prove me wrong but I’m confident that on most of the times he line up against Chase, Tomac and Jett he won’t have the speed to match them if they run a problem free normal race.

Webbs top speed is not at the same level as the others, he has other qualities but the same raw speed as the other guys for 17 rounds is not one of them. 

Yes, once in awhile he can have a good night and be up there in speed, but most of the times he is not. 

Lmao!!! "I'm confident..... if if if".. doesn't sound like you are too confident if you have to add conditions to it 🤣🤣

 

Oh man Vital delivers the entertainment. Should we start talking about how Jetts speed is unsustainable and he is crash prone? Because that's about the same level of stupidity.

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USA
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Herr Lich wrote:
Your last sentence is not the same as him having the level of speed of Jett, Tomac, or Chase. He's always won via other means -...

Your last sentence is not the same as him having the level of speed of Jett, Tomac, or Chase. He's always won via other means - strategy and so on. Give me one example - on video - where Webb shows the kind of explosive speed shown by the three mentioned.  

The funny thing for you Webb gropers is even Webb himself admits he doesn't have the speed of some of the others. BTW, this is not to say he doesn't have speed, he has outrageous speed, just not the same as Jett, Tomac, and Chase. 

https://youtu.be/MwC-y_DE0Oo?si=nKCrAcLsoiBEtv-d

 

Since you have a short memory, here's Webb beating everyone 2 weeks ago by being faster and nailing the whole track.

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FreshTopEnd
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resetjet wrote:
Webb is a head case. But when he is on a mission and the track suits him,  he can do some serious damage.  Also,  mentally, he...

Webb is a head case. But when he is on a mission and the track suits him,  he can do some serious damage.  Also,  mentally, he can block out the pain and exhaustion at the end of a moto and somehow push when others are fading.  That combined with his ability to turn on a dime in slow corners,  which is simply amazing.  

He’s a head case but mentally strong? Not trying to be facetious, having a hard time adding that up. 

Clearly he was not down with the Baker’s Factory program, and his performance suffered after he ditched it while still with KTM, but after that era seems to be pretty solid back on the Yamaha with the program he has now. 

There’s been some really speedy guys who broke themselves …Canard, Lusk, etc.  Maybe Webb picks spots. 

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AssangeMX
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Its laughable that People can say a dude with 250 outdoors, two 250 i doors and two 450 indoors isn't fast... doesn't that put him as one of the best of all time?

Of course,  some dudes might sometimes have faster lap times, but if they crash out injured,  then that kinda misses the point of what it takes to be the champ.

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Herr Lich
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Herr Lich wrote:
Your last sentence is not the same as him having the level of speed of Jett, Tomac, or Chase. He's always won via other means -...

Your last sentence is not the same as him having the level of speed of Jett, Tomac, or Chase. He's always won via other means - strategy and so on. Give me one example - on video - where Webb shows the kind of explosive speed shown by the three mentioned.  

The funny thing for you Webb gropers is even Webb himself admits he doesn't have the speed of some of the others. BTW, this is not to say he doesn't have speed, he has outrageous speed, just not the same as Jett, Tomac, and Chase. 

USA wrote:

https://youtu.be/MwC-y_DE0Oo?si=nKCrAcLsoiBEtv-d

 

Since you have a short memory, here's Webb beating everyone 2 weeks ago by being faster and nailing the whole track.

Oh right, you mean this race? 

image 1163
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Herr Lich
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I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems...

I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems to need a few warm up laps to get going, but maybe that’s just being smart when a start isn’t there. 
 

Folks do come up with some “crafty” superficial notions to have hot takes though. 

I don't think anyone in their right mind is arguing Cooper Webb doesn't have speed.  Anyone in the top 10 in SX has insane levels of speed. What people mean is he has never had the blistering raw speed of someone like Jett, Chase or Eli.  Or Kenny before his injury. Remember, this is relative, of course he has speed, just not that kind of speed. 

Again, if someone can give me an example of Webb in beast mode, or like Kenny in early 2017, or Chase in 2023, or Jett most of last year (including when he scrubbed past Eli at the Vegas SMX), I'll be happy to see it. 

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Herr Lich
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I'm a Webb fan, but until this race, I wasn't convinced of his chances at the title. Sure, he "beat Jett straight up", but that was...

I'm a Webb fan, but until this race, I wasn't convinced of his chances at the title. Sure, he "beat Jett straight up", but that was a heat win. Heat wins aren't main wins. Riders will often not "send if" if they're 2nd or 3rd, and are easily in the main. The same race where he beat Jett in his heat, he got a bad start in the main, and didn't make much progress toward the front. This race, however... going from 12th to 2nd (albeit with some help)... he made a believer out of me. He ran down Ando and Roczen (and probably several other big names) straight up, and passed them. His speed through the whoops has gotten better this year, but this race, his whoops speed was very un-Webb like. Faster than everyone but Mookie. There's a good chance he could have run down Sexton. Mookie was on another level. Nobody was catching him.

Webb's had some lackluster years. He seems to respond to opportunities. He's not going to push things just to get from 7th to 5th. Going from 3rd to 2nd, however, pays much higher dividends, and he'll push himself to take advantage of those opportunities.

USA wrote:

So how did Jett and Webb finish in the overall for that race?

The discussion is not about whether Webb beat Jett Lawrence in a race, it's whether he has the raw speed of someone like Jett. As an example, would you argue RC had the same raw speed as Stew in SX even though he beat him on occasion? 

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USA
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I'm a Webb fan, but until this race, I wasn't convinced of his chances at the title. Sure, he "beat Jett straight up", but that was...

I'm a Webb fan, but until this race, I wasn't convinced of his chances at the title. Sure, he "beat Jett straight up", but that was a heat win. Heat wins aren't main wins. Riders will often not "send if" if they're 2nd or 3rd, and are easily in the main. The same race where he beat Jett in his heat, he got a bad start in the main, and didn't make much progress toward the front. This race, however... going from 12th to 2nd (albeit with some help)... he made a believer out of me. He ran down Ando and Roczen (and probably several other big names) straight up, and passed them. His speed through the whoops has gotten better this year, but this race, his whoops speed was very un-Webb like. Faster than everyone but Mookie. There's a good chance he could have run down Sexton. Mookie was on another level. Nobody was catching him.

Webb's had some lackluster years. He seems to respond to opportunities. He's not going to push things just to get from 7th to 5th. Going from 3rd to 2nd, however, pays much higher dividends, and he'll push himself to take advantage of those opportunities.

USA wrote:

So how did Jett and Webb finish in the overall for that race?

Herr Lich wrote:
The discussion is not about whether Webb beat Jett Lawrence in a race, it's whether he has the raw speed of someone like Jett. As an...

The discussion is not about whether Webb beat Jett Lawrence in a race, it's whether he has the raw speed of someone like Jett. As an example, would you argue RC had the same raw speed as Stew in SX even though he beat him on occasion? 

Isn't the point of a race to figure out who has the most speed? 

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bobojim
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2/11/2025 12:57am

Never said Cooper was slow. 
But subtly is always lost on Vital.  His race craft is such a strength it overshadows his speed

I recognise his speed which is typically a little under that of the other top guys but noting it would be silly to assume that is always the case.

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Tumic
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USA wrote:
Lmao!!! "I'm confident..... if if if".. doesn't sound like you are too confident if you have to add conditions to it 🤣🤣 Oh man Vital delivers the...

Lmao!!! "I'm confident..... if if if".. doesn't sound like you are too confident if you have to add conditions to it 🤣🤣

 

Oh man Vital delivers the entertainment. Should we start talking about how Jetts speed is unsustainable and he is crash prone? Because that's about the same level of stupidity.

Yes, IF NORMAL.. because people like you will always dig out one freak race and make it sound like the normal standard.


Would you say after all of the years Malcom has raced he is on the same level of speed as the top 3 just because he won his first 450 main this weekend?…

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USA
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USA wrote:
Lmao!!! "I'm confident..... if if if".. doesn't sound like you are too confident if you have to add conditions to it 🤣🤣 Oh man Vital delivers the...

Lmao!!! "I'm confident..... if if if".. doesn't sound like you are too confident if you have to add conditions to it 🤣🤣

 

Oh man Vital delivers the entertainment. Should we start talking about how Jetts speed is unsustainable and he is crash prone? Because that's about the same level of stupidity.

Tumic wrote:
Yes, IF NORMAL.. because people like you will always dig out one freak race and make it sound like the normal standard.Would you say after all...

Yes, IF NORMAL.. because people like you will always dig out one freak race and make it sound like the normal standard.


Would you say after all of the years Malcom has raced he is on the same level of speed as the top 3 just because he won his first 450 main this weekend?…

How convenient, so every time the result isn't what you want, you just say "it wasn't normal".

 

I'll choose to live in reality

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2/11/2025 2:48am
endurox wrote:

Web's 4 out of 5 championships are in odd number years.

And he’s had around 20 opportunities to win a title. I don’t think that’s statistically significant. 

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Magoofan
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2/11/2025 8:47am

Hilarious watching the WDS sufferers getting destroyed in here.

 

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Gator724
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2/11/2025 9:54am
I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems...

I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems to need a few warm up laps to get going, but maybe that’s just being smart when a start isn’t there. 
 

Folks do come up with some “crafty” superficial notions to have hot takes though. 

Herr Lich wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind is arguing Cooper Webb doesn't have speed.  Anyone in the top 10 in SX has insane levels of...

I don't think anyone in their right mind is arguing Cooper Webb doesn't have speed.  Anyone in the top 10 in SX has insane levels of speed. What people mean is he has never had the blistering raw speed of someone like Jett, Chase or Eli.  Or Kenny before his injury. Remember, this is relative, of course he has speed, just not that kind of speed. 

Again, if someone can give me an example of Webb in beast mode, or like Kenny in early 2017, or Chase in 2023, or Jett most of last year (including when he scrubbed past Eli at the Vegas SMX), I'll be happy to see it. 

When he ran down herlings at the mxgp?

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Kyzer138
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WeBb DoEsNt HaVe tHe SpEeD

IMG 4097 3
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Herr Lich
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2/11/2025 1:11pm
I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems...

I’m not sure a guy whose hallmark is moving through the pack hunting guys down with late passes for wins doesn’t have speed. He certainly seems to need a few warm up laps to get going, but maybe that’s just being smart when a start isn’t there. 
 

Folks do come up with some “crafty” superficial notions to have hot takes though. 

Herr Lich wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind is arguing Cooper Webb doesn't have speed.  Anyone in the top 10 in SX has insane levels of...

I don't think anyone in their right mind is arguing Cooper Webb doesn't have speed.  Anyone in the top 10 in SX has insane levels of speed. What people mean is he has never had the blistering raw speed of someone like Jett, Chase or Eli.  Or Kenny before his injury. Remember, this is relative, of course he has speed, just not that kind of speed. 

Again, if someone can give me an example of Webb in beast mode, or like Kenny in early 2017, or Chase in 2023, or Jett most of last year (including when he scrubbed past Eli at the Vegas SMX), I'll be happy to see it. 

Gator724 wrote:

When he ran down herlings at the mxgp?

My examples were from SX and SMX.  Also, if you really think Cooper Webb has the speed of Jeffrey Herlings outdoors - apart from one race years ago - I will have to disagree. 

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Zucchini Nibs
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Kyzer138 wrote:
WeBb DoEsNt HaVe tHe SpEeD

WeBb DoEsNt HaVe tHe SpEeD

IMG 4097 3

Justin Hill having a fastest segment is crazy

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Zucchini Nibs
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2/11/2025 4:03pm

Coop has elite speed, his riding style just doesn’t showcase it as much imo. Easier to see when you’re watching him in person. I’d put him in the elite speed category with Jett, Tomac, Sexton.

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Logan114
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2/11/2025 4:04pm

I think his whoop speed is night and day different, honestly very impressive. 

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olds cool
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2/22/2025 8:01pm

Is being the fastest smart guy not better than raw overall speed?  

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Nighttrain
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Tumic wrote:
Me and plenty of others. Go ahead and prove me wrong but I’m confident that on most of the times he line up against Chase, Tomac...

Me and plenty of others. Go ahead and prove me wrong but I’m confident that on most of the times he line up against Chase, Tomac and Jett he won’t have the speed to match them if they run a problem free normal race.

Webbs top speed is not at the same level as the others, he has other qualities but the same raw speed as the other guys for 17 rounds is not one of them. 

Yes, once in awhile he can have a good night and be up there in speed, but most of the times he is not. 

Race craft.  There’s Webb and then there’s the rest. Titles matter. 

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olds cool
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3/8/2025 7:28pm

Put up to 10 seconds on Sexton before Chase tucked the front.  Can we consider this myth debunked now?

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AssangeMX
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olds cool wrote:

Put up to 10 seconds on Sexton before Chase tucked the front.  Can we consider this myth debunked now?

Objective thinking isn't a strong point around here...

Echo
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3/8/2025 8:05pm Edited Date/Time 3/8/2025 8:06pm

The only person in the class that concerned him in this regard was Jett. He's been very vocal and honest about this, last year during the season and even this year after he went out. There was a race last year I can't remember which where he said "I don't know, he's just really good man" As great as Tomac is, and as fast as Chase is, he'd never talk like that about them because he has answers for them. 

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