Once lapped, riders should have to pull off

Mit12
Posts
2175
Joined
6/23/2014
Location
Lake Havasu City, AZ US
2/11/2025 10:27am

So your ok with having a championship contender like Tomac, Sexton, Lawerance, Roczen, Stewart, Webb, crash on the first lap getting up and lapped and having to pull off the track with no chance of gaining any points? Lappers are part of racing! 

4
1
2/11/2025 10:31am
cool_hand wrote:

Coop didn't go quite that far in his post race take on Kenny's crash, but he inferred it. I think it makes 100% sense. 

wont-somebody-please-think-of-the-children-think-of-the-children 4
2
1
3strokemx
Posts
2349
Joined
9/2/2010
Location
US
2/11/2025 10:41am

Let's move the races outside and make the tracks longer.

4
1
zehn
Posts
7859
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
2/11/2025 10:43am
zippytech wrote:
I don't care If you are Tomac or not, when you are being lapped you pull off and that is where you finish. as for all...

I don't care If you are Tomac or not, when you are being lapped you pull off and that is where you finish. as for all the other racers behind you.

If he had to do this he likely would’ve finished in 20-22. As it stands he finished 18 and those are valuable points for anyone. Great sense of entitlement you have 

1

The Shop

Hasletjoe
Posts
597
Joined
7/29/2013
Location
Haslet, TX US
2/11/2025 10:44am

Sounds good until "My Guy" get punted by another rider and gets lapped. He is 22nd and right on a pack of 10 riders with 10 mintues in the race. Gives up 10 points to the crown. End of season , he loses the title. 

Some ideas are solid, some not so much. 

 

1
1
bjj403
Posts
2
Joined
4/20/2007
Location
Ketchum, ID US
2/11/2025 10:49am

Better yet. Just have 20 riders like F1. The rest can take on Vince in Arenacross until they earn one of those 20 spots.

1
5
DonM
Posts
8363
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
Fantasy
2/11/2025 10:52am
bjj403 wrote:

Better yet. Just have 20 riders like F1. The rest can take on Vince in Arenacross until they earn one of those 20 spots.

We have 22 in the main....what's your point....

1
1
2/11/2025 10:55am Edited Date/Time 2/11/2025 11:03am
bjj403 wrote:

Better yet. Just have 20 riders like F1. The rest can take on Vince in Arenacross until they earn one of those 20 spots.

F1 just added another team so there will be 22 drivers before long.

 

1
yz133rider
Posts
5033
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA US
2/11/2025 10:57am

The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.


The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like f1


If you can’t put a fast lap in within 107% of the fastest qualifier you aren’t allowed in the show.


It’s so simple.


Listening to you all go back and forth and hash out the reasons why pulling a lapper off doesn’t work, is exactly why the 107% rule is why f1 goes that route/


You’re always going to have lappers, but people who are 6+ seconds off a 55 second lap time aren’t even in the same zip code and are a legitimate hazard.

3
4
usp4u1
Posts
153
Joined
6/22/2024
Location
Chicora, PA US
2/11/2025 11:03am

Good way to turn every lapper into Vince Freise.

Imagine how hard they would fight to stay in front of the leader.

1
Spooner
Posts
2439
Joined
1/8/2011
Location
Kansas City, MO US
2/11/2025 11:11am

MAYBE if they are lapped twice I'd be ok with them having to pull off. 

1
1
JazzyJJ
Posts
1771
Joined
12/1/2020
Location
Nunya, WY US
2/11/2025 11:17am
bjj403 wrote:

Better yet. Just have 20 riders like F1. The rest can take on Vince in Arenacross until they earn one of those 20 spots.

f! consistently produces some of the most boring races on the planet. 

8
Not hillbilly
Posts
1030
Joined
6/8/2024
Location
Gaithersburg, MD US
2/11/2025 11:29am
Mit12 wrote:
So your ok with having a championship contender like Tomac, Sexton, Lawerance, Roczen, Stewart, Webb, crash on the first lap getting up and lapped and having...

So your ok with having a championship contender like Tomac, Sexton, Lawerance, Roczen, Stewart, Webb, crash on the first lap getting up and lapped and having to pull off the track with no chance of gaining any points? Lappers are part of racing! 

Yup, I’m okay with this. 

And it’s “you’re” lol

1
2
DonM
Posts
8363
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
Fantasy
2/11/2025 11:32am
yz133rider wrote:
The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like...

The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.


The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like f1


If you can’t put a fast lap in within 107% of the fastest qualifier you aren’t allowed in the show.


It’s so simple.


Listening to you all go back and forth and hash out the reasons why pulling a lapper off doesn’t work, is exactly why the 107% rule is why f1 goes that route/


You’re always going to have lappers, but people who are 6+ seconds off a 55 second lap time aren’t even in the same zip code and are a legitimate hazard.

Both those riders had qualifying times that would have put them right at 107% but in their heat race they were well under the 107%. They qualified 22nd and 24th. So under this rule some weeks we would have 25 riders vying for 22 spots or in some race less than 20....with this rule you now look like  WSX having "qualifying" races but yet everybody makes the main....that's just dumb. As typical of Vital every action requires a major overreaction...all that really has to happen is a clearer understanding by riders and officials of what should happen in a blue flag situation...not this stupid 107% rule that doesn't belong in a sport with so many variables or removing racers once they get lapped (which is really dumb) . In my opinion the track design (long rutted sand section) is what caused this....Hand went a little to the right because of the ruts and Roczen went to the left because of the ruts and Lane was just an innocent bystander doing what he was supposed to do by the rules and stay in his line. We all know what the blue flag is for and the rules are pretty clear on what a rider should do while being lapped, but what is the rule if one doesn't follow the blue flag rules...that is what needs to be clearer...

4
GrapeApe
Posts
8756
Joined
6/7/2010
Location
Mc Kinney, TX US
2/11/2025 11:33am
yz133rider wrote:
The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like...

The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.


The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like f1


If you can’t put a fast lap in within 107% of the fastest qualifier you aren’t allowed in the show.


It’s so simple.


Listening to you all go back and forth and hash out the reasons why pulling a lapper off doesn’t work, is exactly why the 107% rule is why f1 goes that route/


You’re always going to have lappers, but people who are 6+ seconds off a 55 second lap time aren’t even in the same zip code and are a legitimate hazard.

In Tampa there would have been no heat races or lcq's, just 20 riders straight to the main based on timed qualifying. Is that really what you want?

I'd prefer to see them race their way into the main as it has always been. Nichols would have been eliminated after timed qualifying but ended up 12th in the main. 

4
1
yz133rider
Posts
5033
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA US
2/11/2025 11:35am
yz133rider wrote:
The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like...

The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.


The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like f1


If you can’t put a fast lap in within 107% of the fastest qualifier you aren’t allowed in the show.


It’s so simple.


Listening to you all go back and forth and hash out the reasons why pulling a lapper off doesn’t work, is exactly why the 107% rule is why f1 goes that route/


You’re always going to have lappers, but people who are 6+ seconds off a 55 second lap time aren’t even in the same zip code and are a legitimate hazard.

DonM wrote:
Both those riders had qualifying times that would have put them right at 107% but in their heat race they were well under the 107%. They...

Both those riders had qualifying times that would have put them right at 107% but in their heat race they were well under the 107%. They qualified 22nd and 24th. So under this rule some weeks we would have 25 riders vying for 22 spots or in some race less than 20....with this rule you now look like  WSX having "qualifying" races but yet everybody makes the main....that's just dumb. As typical of Vital every action requires a major overreaction...all that really has to happen is a clearer understanding by riders and officials of what should happen in a blue flag situation...not this stupid 107% rule that doesn't belong in a sport with so many variables or removing racers once they get lapped (which is really dumb) . In my opinion the track design (long rutted sand section) is what caused this....Hand went a little to the right because of the ruts and Roczen went to the left because of the ruts and Lane was just an innocent bystander doing what he was supposed to do by the rules and stay in his line. We all know what the blue flag is for and the rules are pretty clear on what a rider should do while being lapped, but what is the rule if one doesn't follow the blue flag rules...that is what needs to be clearer...

Then make it 105% if 107 isn’t tight enough for moto. F1 uses 107 as their standard but we do have different needs for moto so tweaking that to find the right formula would make sense.


And maybe the format changes over time so we aren’t watching 2.5 hours of heat races for gate picks on the main program.

5
Not hillbilly
Posts
1030
Joined
6/8/2024
Location
Gaithersburg, MD US
2/11/2025 11:36am

The fact is, that incident could have happened between people on the same lap as well. The sand was the true culprit.

Where is your god now?! 

4
yz133rider
Posts
5033
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA US
2/11/2025 11:37am
yz133rider wrote:
The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like...

The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.


The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like f1


If you can’t put a fast lap in within 107% of the fastest qualifier you aren’t allowed in the show.


It’s so simple.


Listening to you all go back and forth and hash out the reasons why pulling a lapper off doesn’t work, is exactly why the 107% rule is why f1 goes that route/


You’re always going to have lappers, but people who are 6+ seconds off a 55 second lap time aren’t even in the same zip code and are a legitimate hazard.

GrapeApe wrote:
In Tampa there would have been no heat races or lcq's, just 20 riders straight to the main based on timed qualifying. Is that really what...

In Tampa there would have been no heat races or lcq's, just 20 riders straight to the main based on timed qualifying. Is that really what you want?

I'd prefer to see them race their way into the main as it has always been. Nichols would have been eliminated after timed qualifying but ended up 12th in the main. 

It is if that’s what it takes to keep people safer out there and keeping people who don’t belong on the track off of it.


There would still be heats for gate pick jockeying since everyone gets so excited about that.

5
2/11/2025 11:39am
Lappers are part of motorsports, the leader needs to find a way around them..period.Kenny made a stupid decision and he paid the price. Get rid of...

Lappers are part of motorsports, the leader needs to find a way around them..period.Kenny made a stupid decision and he paid the price. Get rid of the blue flags, a lapper shouldnt have to be nice and move over. Faster riders are responsible for passing them. 

Can you show me another motorsport where lappers ignore blue flags and try to race leaders without being penalized?

1
3
zehn
Posts
7859
Joined
1/15/2013
Location
Anchorage, AK US
2/11/2025 11:39am Edited Date/Time 2/11/2025 11:41am
yz133rider wrote:
The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like...

The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.


The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like f1


If you can’t put a fast lap in within 107% of the fastest qualifier you aren’t allowed in the show.


It’s so simple.


Listening to you all go back and forth and hash out the reasons why pulling a lapper off doesn’t work, is exactly why the 107% rule is why f1 goes that route/


You’re always going to have lappers, but people who are 6+ seconds off a 55 second lap time aren’t even in the same zip code and are a legitimate hazard.

I did some math for you and determined that the top 20 riders in qualifying were within 107% of the leader at the Tampa race. This rule would work for Triple Crown races but would not work without completely overhauling the structure of the night program as it would eliminate essentially half the field, resulting in a 10 rider heat race. 

You can't just say "use the 107% rule" as it was developed for an entirely different kind of racing with an entirely different paradigm and culture

EDIT: Also, the danger isn't how far off the leader's qualifying times a slower rider is, it's how far off their times become halfway through the race, which you really can't predict

2
Magoofan
Posts
10401
Joined
5/4/2021
Location
Shadow Glen (for those who remember), CA US
2/11/2025 11:40am
SoCalMX70 wrote:

Is this like your argument that whoops should be taken out, or is that different?

Magoofan wrote:

Show me where I ever said the whoops should be taken out.     

SoCalMX70 wrote:

Oh, sorry... You go on and on about "taming them down". They should take less skill then, right?

I guess you're happy with people ending up like Pierce Brown going through the death whoops....all for your entertainment of course. 

 

1
5
GrapeApe
Posts
8756
Joined
6/7/2010
Location
Mc Kinney, TX US
2/11/2025 11:40am Edited Date/Time 2/11/2025 11:42am
yz133rider wrote:
The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like...

The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.


The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like f1


If you can’t put a fast lap in within 107% of the fastest qualifier you aren’t allowed in the show.


It’s so simple.


Listening to you all go back and forth and hash out the reasons why pulling a lapper off doesn’t work, is exactly why the 107% rule is why f1 goes that route/


You’re always going to have lappers, but people who are 6+ seconds off a 55 second lap time aren’t even in the same zip code and are a legitimate hazard.

GrapeApe wrote:
In Tampa there would have been no heat races or lcq's, just 20 riders straight to the main based on timed qualifying. Is that really what...

In Tampa there would have been no heat races or lcq's, just 20 riders straight to the main based on timed qualifying. Is that really what you want?

I'd prefer to see them race their way into the main as it has always been. Nichols would have been eliminated after timed qualifying but ended up 12th in the main. 

yz133rider wrote:
It is if that’s what it takes to keep people safer out there and keeping people who don’t belong on the track off of it.There would...

It is if that’s what it takes to keep people safer out there and keeping people who don’t belong on the track off of it.


There would still be heats for gate pick jockeying since everyone gets so excited about that.

You don't think Colt Nichols belonged on the track at Tampa? Was he a danger to the other riders? I'm not following . . . at all.

 

1
DonM
Posts
8363
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
Fantasy
2/11/2025 11:41am
yz133rider wrote:
The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like...

The problem isn’t lappers. The problem is how much slower some lappers are. The speed differential is too large.


The solution is actually simple. 107% rule like f1


If you can’t put a fast lap in within 107% of the fastest qualifier you aren’t allowed in the show.


It’s so simple.


Listening to you all go back and forth and hash out the reasons why pulling a lapper off doesn’t work, is exactly why the 107% rule is why f1 goes that route/


You’re always going to have lappers, but people who are 6+ seconds off a 55 second lap time aren’t even in the same zip code and are a legitimate hazard.

DonM wrote:
Both those riders had qualifying times that would have put them right at 107% but in their heat race they were well under the 107%. They...

Both those riders had qualifying times that would have put them right at 107% but in their heat race they were well under the 107%. They qualified 22nd and 24th. So under this rule some weeks we would have 25 riders vying for 22 spots or in some race less than 20....with this rule you now look like  WSX having "qualifying" races but yet everybody makes the main....that's just dumb. As typical of Vital every action requires a major overreaction...all that really has to happen is a clearer understanding by riders and officials of what should happen in a blue flag situation...not this stupid 107% rule that doesn't belong in a sport with so many variables or removing racers once they get lapped (which is really dumb) . In my opinion the track design (long rutted sand section) is what caused this....Hand went a little to the right because of the ruts and Roczen went to the left because of the ruts and Lane was just an innocent bystander doing what he was supposed to do by the rules and stay in his line. We all know what the blue flag is for and the rules are pretty clear on what a rider should do while being lapped, but what is the rule if one doesn't follow the blue flag rules...that is what needs to be clearer...

yz133rider wrote:
Then make it 105% if 107 isn’t tight enough for moto. F1 uses 107 as their standard but we do have different needs for moto so...

Then make it 105% if 107 isn’t tight enough for moto. F1 uses 107 as their standard but we do have different needs for moto so tweaking that to find the right formula would make sense.


And maybe the format changes over time so we aren’t watching 2.5 hours of heat races for gate picks on the main program.

so now we have 15 riders or less total? You really want this to look like WSX don't you....

2
1
yz133rider
Posts
5033
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA US
2/11/2025 11:42am
GrapeApe wrote:
In Tampa there would have been no heat races or lcq's, just 20 riders straight to the main based on timed qualifying. Is that really what...

In Tampa there would have been no heat races or lcq's, just 20 riders straight to the main based on timed qualifying. Is that really what you want?

I'd prefer to see them race their way into the main as it has always been. Nichols would have been eliminated after timed qualifying but ended up 12th in the main. 

yz133rider wrote:
It is if that’s what it takes to keep people safer out there and keeping people who don’t belong on the track off of it.There would...

It is if that’s what it takes to keep people safer out there and keeping people who don’t belong on the track off of it.


There would still be heats for gate pick jockeying since everyone gets so excited about that.

GrapeApe wrote:
You don't think Colt Nichols belonged on the track at Tampa? Was he a danger to the other riders? I'm not following . . . at...

You don't think Colt Nichols belonged on the track at Tampa? Was he a danger to the other riders? I'm not following . . . at all.

 

you really aren’t following at all or are you being willfully ignorant to the thought…

It keeps people from doing 40 mph on the autobahn with their hazards on while there’s a police chase heading their way…in a hurry.


That’s an analogy to maybe help you conceptualize it.

4
aees
Posts
2676
Joined
8/20/2015
Location
US
2/11/2025 11:42am
Mit12 wrote:
So your ok with having a championship contender like Tomac, Sexton, Lawerance, Roczen, Stewart, Webb, crash on the first lap getting up and lapped and having...

So your ok with having a championship contender like Tomac, Sexton, Lawerance, Roczen, Stewart, Webb, crash on the first lap getting up and lapped and having to pull off the track with no chance of gaining any points? Lappers are part of racing! 

Said this before. Need to pull the riders off before they get lapped. Once lapped, it's to late. They get a full lap worst case to be in the way. That could be 1-5 getting screwed. 

Put a time limit on how much behind a leader you can be per track, like 50 sec. Anyone who reaches that, get pulled. 

Then a cut off for who can get pulled based on qualifying times, like 1-12 or something is protected

4
yz133rider
Posts
5033
Joined
8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA US
2/11/2025 11:43am
DonM wrote:
Both those riders had qualifying times that would have put them right at 107% but in their heat race they were well under the 107%. They...

Both those riders had qualifying times that would have put them right at 107% but in their heat race they were well under the 107%. They qualified 22nd and 24th. So under this rule some weeks we would have 25 riders vying for 22 spots or in some race less than 20....with this rule you now look like  WSX having "qualifying" races but yet everybody makes the main....that's just dumb. As typical of Vital every action requires a major overreaction...all that really has to happen is a clearer understanding by riders and officials of what should happen in a blue flag situation...not this stupid 107% rule that doesn't belong in a sport with so many variables or removing racers once they get lapped (which is really dumb) . In my opinion the track design (long rutted sand section) is what caused this....Hand went a little to the right because of the ruts and Roczen went to the left because of the ruts and Lane was just an innocent bystander doing what he was supposed to do by the rules and stay in his line. We all know what the blue flag is for and the rules are pretty clear on what a rider should do while being lapped, but what is the rule if one doesn't follow the blue flag rules...that is what needs to be clearer...

yz133rider wrote:
Then make it 105% if 107 isn’t tight enough for moto. F1 uses 107 as their standard but we do have different needs for moto so...

Then make it 105% if 107 isn’t tight enough for moto. F1 uses 107 as their standard but we do have different needs for moto so tweaking that to find the right formula would make sense.


And maybe the format changes over time so we aren’t watching 2.5 hours of heat races for gate picks on the main program.

DonM wrote:

so now we have 15 riders or less total? You really want this to look like WSX don't you....

Slow down, take a breath, if it’s 15 of the baddest dudes alive, it’s nothing like wsx where it was Kenny eli and joey vs a bunch of well, not the baddest dudes alive.

1
DonM
Posts
8363
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
Fantasy
2/11/2025 11:45am

I've got a great idea...how about we just do better with the blue flag on both the AMA and riders side so it is clearer with what happens if you cause a crash while being lapped....no reason the re-invent the wheel here...

7
Boira
Posts
28
Joined
11/25/2020
Location
ES
2/11/2025 11:46am
Alex814 wrote:
Lappers are a part of motorsports. I can't think of another form of pro racing that removes them from the racing, but feel free to correct...

Lappers are a part of motorsports. I can't think of another form of pro racing that removes them from the racing, but feel free to correct me. 

If you guys think SX riders have it rough, go watch Petit Le Mans.

If you guys think SX riders have it rough, go watch Petit Le Mans o Le Touquet👍

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPct0HzRA4Q

2
FastEddy
Posts
14815
Joined
8/3/2008
Location
💀, FL US
2/11/2025 11:49am Edited Date/Time 2/11/2025 12:15pm

An old post from @LB /  Larry Brooks on the topic from over 14 years ago.   https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/Blue-Flags,1167669#comment-8746

I'd assume he wasnt happy about last weekends ordeal with Kenny..... LB being the Team Manager and all. I'd assume his opinion still stands.

Kyle978
Posts
1693
Joined
10/7/2013
Location
Dirt, NM US
2/11/2025 11:51am

I’ve been beating this drum for years. I fully support this motion, OP!

1

Post a reply to: Once lapped, riders should have to pull off

The Latest