Will KTM's financial trouble impact your purchasing decision.

Dave v3.0
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Ozark, AL, USA
12/20/2024 10:47am

You're complaining about prices going down, do you also complain when prices go up?

Dave v3.0 wrote:
Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having...

Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having a problem selling bikes, ya know...

But, as has been mentioned, KTMs sales are still well above pre-pandemic levels. The issue is that they produced inventory for what is proving to be...

But, as has been mentioned, KTMs sales are still well above pre-pandemic levels. The issue is that they produced inventory for what is proving to be a couple year spike.

What would their sales be at FULL retail pricing without the 30-40% discounts?  

The whole 2 wheel industry is sick right now.  That's why Suzuki is making just a few bikes a year, Kawasaki is doing massive year end discounts every year, and Honda and Yamaha aren't overproducing bikes like they used to.

Without SXS and Quad sales there would be a LOT of dealers that would cease to exist.  

2
McG194
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Location
Palm Coast, FL, USA
12/20/2024 11:17am
Dave v3.0 wrote:
Saw an ad last night for a brand new 2024 GasGas 350 for $5999 OTD somewhere in Missouri. That's a smoking hot deal.  That's what I...

Saw an ad last night for a brand new 2024 GasGas 350 for $5999 OTD somewhere in Missouri. That's a smoking hot deal.  That's what I paid in 2003 for my CRF450...
But the economy is doing GREAT!🤠

You're complaining about prices going down, do you also complain when prices go up?

If you don't understand the danger of falling prices you don't understand economics on a macro level. 

1
12/20/2024 11:22am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2024 1:25pm
Dave v3.0 wrote:
Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having...

Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having a problem selling bikes, ya know...

But, as has been mentioned, KTMs sales are still well above pre-pandemic levels. The issue is that they produced inventory for what is proving to be...

But, as has been mentioned, KTMs sales are still well above pre-pandemic levels. The issue is that they produced inventory for what is proving to be a couple year spike.

Dave v3.0 wrote:
What would their sales be at FULL retail pricing without the 30-40% discounts?  The whole 2 wheel industry is sick right now.  That's why Suzuki is...

What would their sales be at FULL retail pricing without the 30-40% discounts?  

The whole 2 wheel industry is sick right now.  That's why Suzuki is making just a few bikes a year, Kawasaki is doing massive year end discounts every year, and Honda and Yamaha aren't overproducing bikes like they used to.

Without SXS and Quad sales there would be a LOT of dealers that would cease to exist.  

Actually, for Suzuki, they just published their quarterly report 3 weeks ago:

Global motorcycle sales up 7% year-over-year, based on strong performance in India and Latin America. +64,000 units over Q2 2023

Full year projection: 5% global motorcycle sales growth.

Motorcycle revenue up 12%, motorcycle operating profit up 44%

 

Bajaj reported annual numbers:

Domestic sales up by 400,000 units (more than KTM's entire annual production), year-over-year

Export sales down  year over year

KTM unit sales 65,000 up from 53,000 for 2023

Total sales 3.6M units 2024 up from 3.4M for 2023

 

Yamaha:

Q3 unit sales up 13% year-over-year, forecast 12% for year

Full year motorcycle revenue forecast up 12% over 2024, driven by sales in Brazil, India, and Indonesia,

Margins increased by over a full percentage point over 2023

Yamasha
4
Dave v3.0
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12/20/2024 2:17pm
But, as has been mentioned, KTMs sales are still well above pre-pandemic levels. The issue is that they produced inventory for what is proving to be...

But, as has been mentioned, KTMs sales are still well above pre-pandemic levels. The issue is that they produced inventory for what is proving to be a couple year spike.

Dave v3.0 wrote:
What would their sales be at FULL retail pricing without the 30-40% discounts?  The whole 2 wheel industry is sick right now.  That's why Suzuki is...

What would their sales be at FULL retail pricing without the 30-40% discounts?  

The whole 2 wheel industry is sick right now.  That's why Suzuki is making just a few bikes a year, Kawasaki is doing massive year end discounts every year, and Honda and Yamaha aren't overproducing bikes like they used to.

Without SXS and Quad sales there would be a LOT of dealers that would cease to exist.  

Actually, for Suzuki, they just published their quarterly report 3 weeks ago:Global motorcycle sales up 7% year-over-year, based on strong performance in India and Latin...

Actually, for Suzuki, they just published their quarterly report 3 weeks ago:

Global motorcycle sales up 7% year-over-year, based on strong performance in India and Latin America. +64,000 units over Q2 2023

Full year projection: 5% global motorcycle sales growth.

Motorcycle revenue up 12%, motorcycle operating profit up 44%

 

Bajaj reported annual numbers:

Domestic sales up by 400,000 units (more than KTM's entire annual production), year-over-year

Export sales down  year over year

KTM unit sales 65,000 up from 53,000 for 2023

Total sales 3.6M units 2024 up from 3.4M for 2023

 

Yamaha:

Q3 unit sales up 13% year-over-year, forecast 12% for year

Full year motorcycle revenue forecast up 12% over 2024, driven by sales in Brazil, India, and Indonesia,

Margins increased by over a full percentage point over 2023

Yamasha

Now give me figures for the U.S. market...and for off road bikes.

1

The Shop

12/20/2024 2:28pm Edited Date/Time 12/20/2024 2:35pm
Dave v3.0 wrote:
What would their sales be at FULL retail pricing without the 30-40% discounts?  The whole 2 wheel industry is sick right now.  That's why Suzuki is...

What would their sales be at FULL retail pricing without the 30-40% discounts?  

The whole 2 wheel industry is sick right now.  That's why Suzuki is making just a few bikes a year, Kawasaki is doing massive year end discounts every year, and Honda and Yamaha aren't overproducing bikes like they used to.

Without SXS and Quad sales there would be a LOT of dealers that would cease to exist.  

Actually, for Suzuki, they just published their quarterly report 3 weeks ago:Global motorcycle sales up 7% year-over-year, based on strong performance in India and Latin...

Actually, for Suzuki, they just published their quarterly report 3 weeks ago:

Global motorcycle sales up 7% year-over-year, based on strong performance in India and Latin America. +64,000 units over Q2 2023

Full year projection: 5% global motorcycle sales growth.

Motorcycle revenue up 12%, motorcycle operating profit up 44%

 

Bajaj reported annual numbers:

Domestic sales up by 400,000 units (more than KTM's entire annual production), year-over-year

Export sales down  year over year

KTM unit sales 65,000 up from 53,000 for 2023

Total sales 3.6M units 2024 up from 3.4M for 2023

 

Yamaha:

Q3 unit sales up 13% year-over-year, forecast 12% for year

Full year motorcycle revenue forecast up 12% over 2024, driven by sales in Brazil, India, and Indonesia,

Margins increased by over a full percentage point over 2023

Yamasha
Dave v3.0 wrote:

Now give me figures for the U.S. market...and for off road bikes.

I don't have those numbers. You have to subscribe to trade journals for that.

But as far as KTM goes -- a large global brand whose majority of sales are street bikes and vast majority are outside of the US -- the sales (and revenue) figures are good historically for the brand, but just not at levels matching their ridiculous projections and insane debt load.

MOTO13
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12/20/2024 2:28pm

Wouldn't touch a KTM if they were 50% off. As a company, they have more problems than solutions.

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luckyguy19
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12/20/2024 2:45pm

Yeah fuck KTM.  Choosing to go racing over paying employees, right before Christmas. 

6
6
MxAddic
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12/21/2024 5:53am
MOTO13 wrote:

Wouldn't touch a KTM if they were 50% off. As a company, they have more problems than solutions.

Always seems to work out that way at the end of the rope when you can no longer spend other folks money.

1
12/21/2024 7:17am

I was on the fence about ever buying another KTM.

My last one lasted around 18 hours from new before something let go in the bottom end.  'Goodwill' warranty still had me $2200 out of pocket to have it repaired (that was more on the dealer though). I still own it as I would never get what I paid back out of it.

Thinking about some of their factory workers getting screwed over, companies who will suffer huge losses or close up because KTM won't be able to pay back their debts? Reckless, hate to see it. That has swayed me to never buy another KTM ever again.

4
burn1986
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bossier city, LA, USA
12/21/2024 5:51pm
I was on the fence about ever buying another KTM.My last one lasted around 18 hours from new before something let go in the bottom end...

I was on the fence about ever buying another KTM.

My last one lasted around 18 hours from new before something let go in the bottom end.  'Goodwill' warranty still had me $2200 out of pocket to have it repaired (that was more on the dealer though). I still own it as I would never get what I paid back out of it.

Thinking about some of their factory workers getting screwed over, companies who will suffer huge losses or close up because KTM won't be able to pay back their debts? Reckless, hate to see it. That has swayed me to never buy another KTM ever again.

Yep, some of those employees’ lives are ruined. Bad time to get evicted. Of course, upper management has no idea what that’s like.

6
12/22/2024 1:18pm
Dave v3.0 wrote:
Saw an ad last night for a brand new 2024 GasGas 350 for $5999 OTD somewhere in Missouri. That's a smoking hot deal.  That's what I...

Saw an ad last night for a brand new 2024 GasGas 350 for $5999 OTD somewhere in Missouri. That's a smoking hot deal.  That's what I paid in 2003 for my CRF450...
But the economy is doing GREAT!🤠

You're complaining about prices going down, do you also complain when prices go up?

Dave v3.0 wrote:
Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having...

Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having a problem selling bikes, ya know...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/

"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%), India (16%), and Indonesia (11%) have helped propel the numbers upward year on year. For its part, sales in Europe/US/Japan (considered as one unit on this report) rose by eight percent. Sales were down slightly in Thailand, the Philippines, and China, but strong overall motorcycle sales across all markets combined still put Yamaha's sales figures for Q3 2024 ahead of the same period in 2023."

KurtJ99
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12/22/2024 2:29pm
MxAddic wrote:
"However, when the all-new Maico models were unveiled, people didn’t swarm to the dealerships to get their hands on them as they had in the past...

"However, when the all-new Maico models were unveiled, people didn’t swarm to the dealerships to get their hands on them as they had in the past. The problem was that the brand had lost its mojo and the buying public didn’t want anything to do with a bike brand that looked like it was on the verge of collapse."

https://motocrossactionmag.com/two-stroke-tuesday-the-beginning-of-the-…

Not the same situation. In 81, Maico came out with the best Open class bike in history. The Hondas were a mess and i never saw a Kawi 420.  It wasn’t revolutionary but it was “peak evolution” of an air cooled two stroke. The next year ‘82 they were single shock, heavy, and unreliable. Local pros were buying the last ‘81 Maicos because they knew nothing else was better. If the 82 was less weight and more reliable it would have ruled. 
KTM just overproduced for reasons everybody knows in hindsight. No mojo lost on products. 

McG194
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Palm Coast, FL, USA
12/22/2024 4:48pm Edited Date/Time 12/22/2024 4:49pm

You're complaining about prices going down, do you also complain when prices go up?

Dave v3.0 wrote:
Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having...

Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having a problem selling bikes, ya know...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%)...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/

"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%), India (16%), and Indonesia (11%) have helped propel the numbers upward year on year. For its part, sales in Europe/US/Japan (considered as one unit on this report) rose by eight percent. Sales were down slightly in Thailand, the Philippines, and China, but strong overall motorcycle sales across all markets combined still put Yamaha's sales figures for Q3 2024 ahead of the same period in 2023."

Yamaha isn't doing ok in every segment of their business, or else I wouldn't have purchased a $5800 eMtb for $2300. 

12/22/2024 5:01pm
Dave v3.0 wrote:
Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having...

Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having a problem selling bikes, ya know...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%)...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/

"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%), India (16%), and Indonesia (11%) have helped propel the numbers upward year on year. For its part, sales in Europe/US/Japan (considered as one unit on this report) rose by eight percent. Sales were down slightly in Thailand, the Philippines, and China, but strong overall motorcycle sales across all markets combined still put Yamaha's sales figures for Q3 2024 ahead of the same period in 2023."

McG194 wrote:

Yamaha isn't doing ok in every segment of their business, or else I wouldn't have purchased a $5800 eMtb for $2300. 

Geez.  Tough crowd.  They're not gonna nail it on everything.  I think a lot of companies were wrong on the adoption of e-Bikes, and also the insanely crowded market it's become with all the Chinese stuff flooding the market.  Very difficult market to penetrate if you're new to the game.    One article I read talked about how Yamaha had done a good job at selling the correct bikes, in the appropriate markets.  For example, not trying to sell $25K R1's in Asia where they like smaller and cheaper bikes.   Some companies probably do this type of thing better than others, and since all these companies sell internationally all over the world, they gotta get that product mix right for all their different markets.  Probably very tricky to do.

I used to think Yamaha focus'd too much on their street bikes, and seemed to be ignoring certain market segments that I wanted to see them produce a bike for.  Evidently, they're smarter than me and have been doing it mostly correct here in the US with their current lineup.  I just think it has some holes in it, but with sales up around 8% in this tough environment like ours, they must be pretty pleased.

2
12/22/2024 5:08pm
Dave v3.0 wrote:
Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having...

Not complaining about the prices going down, complaining about the lack of disposable income that is making them fall.  It's not just KTM that is having a problem selling bikes, ya know...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%)...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/

"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%), India (16%), and Indonesia (11%) have helped propel the numbers upward year on year. For its part, sales in Europe/US/Japan (considered as one unit on this report) rose by eight percent. Sales were down slightly in Thailand, the Philippines, and China, but strong overall motorcycle sales across all markets combined still put Yamaha's sales figures for Q3 2024 ahead of the same period in 2023."

McG194 wrote:

Yamaha isn't doing ok in every segment of their business, or else I wouldn't have purchased a $5800 eMtb for $2300. 

Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

image 887
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matze
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12/23/2024 3:06am
Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%)...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/

"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%), India (16%), and Indonesia (11%) have helped propel the numbers upward year on year. For its part, sales in Europe/US/Japan (considered as one unit on this report) rose by eight percent. Sales were down slightly in Thailand, the Philippines, and China, but strong overall motorcycle sales across all markets combined still put Yamaha's sales figures for Q3 2024 ahead of the same period in 2023."

McG194 wrote:

Yamaha isn't doing ok in every segment of their business, or else I wouldn't have purchased a $5800 eMtb for $2300. 

Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

image 887

on a side note tho. KTM bicycles is its own company and has nothing to do with KTM motorcycles except its name. They are healthy financially.

12/23/2024 3:30am

I’m just hoping they do some good deals on these 265000 bikes they have sitting in a warehouse somewhere.

1
12/23/2024 3:56am
McG194 wrote:

Yamaha isn't doing ok in every segment of their business, or else I wouldn't have purchased a $5800 eMtb for $2300. 

Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

image 887
matze wrote:

on a side note tho. KTM bicycles is its own company and has nothing to do with KTM motorcycles except its name. They are healthy financially.

KTM bicycles is owned by Pierer Mobility, Pierer Mobility is the company that is insolvent, making all the companies they own insolvent.

1
2
matze
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12/23/2024 4:05am
Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

image 887
matze wrote:

on a side note tho. KTM bicycles is its own company and has nothing to do with KTM motorcycles except its name. They are healthy financially.

KTM bicycles is owned by Pierer Mobility, Pierer Mobility is the company that is insolvent, making all the companies they own insolvent.

1
12/23/2024 4:08am
matze wrote:

on a side note tho. KTM bicycles is its own company and has nothing to do with KTM motorcycles except its name. They are healthy financially.

KTM bicycles is owned by Pierer Mobility, Pierer Mobility is the company that is insolvent, making all the companies they own insolvent.

matze wrote:

My mistake, Pierer Mobility owns Husqvarna, GASGAS and Felt bicycles...

image 885
1
matze
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12/23/2024 4:10am

KTM bicycles is owned by Pierer Mobility, Pierer Mobility is the company that is insolvent, making all the companies they own insolvent.

matze wrote:
My mistake, Pierer Mobility owns Husqvarna, GASGAS and Felt bicycles...

My mistake, Pierer Mobility owns Husqvarna, GASGAS and Felt bicycles...

image 885

yes, your mistake. 

Spoonguy
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12/23/2024 4:23am
McG194 wrote:

Yamaha isn't doing ok in every segment of their business, or else I wouldn't have purchased a $5800 eMtb for $2300. 

Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

Overall Yamaha is doing well, making a profit, manageable debt, something KTM can only dream of!

image 887
matze wrote:

on a side note tho. KTM bicycles is its own company and has nothing to do with KTM motorcycles except its name. They are healthy financially.

GasGas and Husqvarna bicycles are owned by KTM, right?

McG194
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4140
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Location
Palm Coast, FL, USA
12/23/2024 5:06am
Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%)...

Not all manufacturers are having issues selling bikes.   Yamaha seems to be doing OK.... https://www.rideapart.com/features/741042/yamaha-motorcycle-sales-q3-2024/

"Diving into motorcycle sales, growth in Brazil (23%), Vietnam (21%), India (16%), and Indonesia (11%) have helped propel the numbers upward year on year. For its part, sales in Europe/US/Japan (considered as one unit on this report) rose by eight percent. Sales were down slightly in Thailand, the Philippines, and China, but strong overall motorcycle sales across all markets combined still put Yamaha's sales figures for Q3 2024 ahead of the same period in 2023."

McG194 wrote:

Yamaha isn't doing ok in every segment of their business, or else I wouldn't have purchased a $5800 eMtb for $2300. 

Geez.  Tough crowd.  They're not gonna nail it on everything.  I think a lot of companies were wrong on the adoption of e-Bikes, and also the...

Geez.  Tough crowd.  They're not gonna nail it on everything.  I think a lot of companies were wrong on the adoption of e-Bikes, and also the insanely crowded market it's become with all the Chinese stuff flooding the market.  Very difficult market to penetrate if you're new to the game.    One article I read talked about how Yamaha had done a good job at selling the correct bikes, in the appropriate markets.  For example, not trying to sell $25K R1's in Asia where they like smaller and cheaper bikes.   Some companies probably do this type of thing better than others, and since all these companies sell internationally all over the world, they gotta get that product mix right for all their different markets.  Probably very tricky to do.

I used to think Yamaha focus'd too much on their street bikes, and seemed to be ignoring certain market segments that I wanted to see them produce a bike for.  Evidently, they're smarter than me and have been doing it mostly correct here in the US with their current lineup.  I just think it has some holes in it, but with sales up around 8% in this tough environment like ours, they must be pretty pleased.

Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like I was dogging them. Just bringing up the fact that it's a tough industry to be in altogether. 

MxAddic
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12/23/2024 5:39am

"No mojo lost on products."

 You are entitled to believe that. I do not.

1
12/23/2024 5:52am
luckyguy19 wrote:

Yeah fuck KTM.  Choosing to go racing over paying employees, right before Christmas. 

Yeah but racing is what sells bikes. Employees especially engineers are dime  a dozen . There loosing there jobs at a high rate right now. Only good thing is a lot of blue collar riders r buying old 2st to race vet A to make some easy money. Your going to hear alot of crying at the track next yr by soft white collar riders 

1

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